ignition maps?

[JK35]

I am searching for all the igniition maps I can find.
Doesn't matter what you are using for engine management... If you have a built A4 and the means to send a file or even a screen shot of your ignition map, I will certainly appreciate it!

The AEM EMS I am using is producing very good results, although since there are no other Audi's, much less anything similar to my setup using AEM standalones, I have been shooting in the dark, and my ignition maps are suffering.
TIA
-Kyle

[JK35]

I finally figured out how to post up viewable images of my tuning software and logs...
Here are some screenshots of my recent ignition map, fuel map and a datalog






here's the same datalog displaying different traces:



Injector phasing

ignition phasing


accel and decel fueling

[JK35]

starts up pretty easily despite the fact that I have NO IDLE CONTROL aside from the set screw on my VR6 throttle body. usually cranks right up, although it also usually dies almost immediately 2-3 times upon a cold start. once I warm up, it fires up almost instantly upon turning the ignition key...

When I initially accelerate, I have to really ease into the throttle, or else it bogs down quite a bit... Once I start to make boost and hit around 3000 rpms, it's running very strong and throttle response is amazing...

Everyone that sees my ignition map tells me I am running WAY too much timing, however each time I try to PULL timing, it runs like shit.
I haven't got a straight answer from anyone on this, but if you look at my ignition map, in the title bar, it says IGNITION MAP (table view) RAW, I'm not sure what the "raw" means?
In the fuel map, "raw" means you're working with a "raw" number. THis can be changed to a number of different things, while in IGNITION, only "default" exists. I can only presume I am looking at degrees, as I can't imagine it being anything else, as to why it doesn't say "degrees" instead of "raw" is beyond me.

Anyway, -good, bad or ugly, here it is, and this is where I stand at present.

I obviously need a lot of help with my tuning ;)
need to see anything else in my tuning or logs? just let me know. The flexibility and control the AEM EMS offers is quite overwhelming. but I am definitely learning my way around both AEMPro (tuning SW) and AEMLog (logging SW)

As for the details of my build, it's a 1997 A4 Quattro, AEB bored and stroked to 2008cc's (obd1 ABA crank, 8.5:1 JE pistons & IE rods, Supertech valvetrain, stock cams for now, adjustable cam gear set at "ZERO" for now, GT3076R, Tial 44mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, 3" straight exhaust, Seimens 72lbs low-z injectors, OBD1 VR6 throttle body, 31x12x3 FMIC with 2.5" IC piping. It is a fresh build, so fresh in fact that my rings aren't even seated in yet.

BTW, the reason I'm only making about 8psi boost despite the fact the boost table is set to 15psi, is because I had the configuration disabled and was running wastegate spring pressure during this log.

[1NaudiA4]

On the ignition map table is the boost in PSI? if so you would be running 23* of timing at torque peak with a maximum of about 26*-27* at 20psi so if that is indeed in degrees and not some "raw" number you would be running waaayyy to much timing. Are you using anything for knock detection? Detonation cans? Also is there another table for the ignition timing so that it can retard/advance it based on the intake air temperature or coolant temperature?

As for the bogging when u try to accelerate, you probably need some more more fuel for your acceleration enrichments at the given point.

[JK35]

I'm using both factory knock sensors connected to the AEM. with my wastegate duty table set to 15psi, I start to pickup a knock count on both sensors, table set to 12psi all is quiet... (also once I hit about 13.5psi, it falls on it's face. could be a number of things and I hope to know more after tonight's tuning work)

I have ignition trim tables and graphs, but nothing is input yet, -they're all zero'd out... I haven't got the main ignition map close enough to go any farther at this point, and I was concerned that setting up any of the trims might exacerbate the tuning problems I have.


The ignition map is in degrees. With that in mind, do you have any ballpark suggestions as to where I should start out at?
Can you post a screenshot of your ignition maps and trims?
If I was reasonably certain the ignition advance was at least in the ballpark, I'd LOVE to apply some settings to the ignition trims.

BTW, except for Intake air temp correction (fueling side) I haven't done much with the fuel trims. I have some very basic / generalized settings in some of the configurations, but most of my trim tables and graphs for fuel are just as BLANK as the ignition trims.

First things first, I am going to upload to my desktop, save the tuning files, then log in and upload to the carputer, this will make it easier and safer for what I am about to do tonight, which is to change my breakpoints. I sure as hell don't need to be working with maps that go as high as 35psi of load and 10,500 rpms on the engine speed axis... I think the additional resolution I'll gain by backing the rpm breakpoints down to 8500rpms and the load breakpoints down to 25psi, will be much more beneficial!
Of course changing the breakpoints is a major undertaking, and I think having the existing maps up on one PC and having the carputer connected to the workmap that I'm actually changing the points on, will make things easier...

I turned off 02 feedback tonight and ADDED some timing to the lowest end of my ignition map, and pulled 5% from the rest of the ignition map. made a few smal adjustments to the fuel map, and then ENABLED "wastegate Invert" which makes my boost control work instead of yielding wastegate spring pressure. LIke I said earlier, up to about 12psi is pretty strong, but at about 15psi I start to get a very small knock count. I do not trust the knock sensors, although having the sensors and knowing that they do function at some unconfirmed degree is better than nothing I guess...


Any ignition maps would be GREATLY appreciated. I just don't have a clue where I SHOULD be at, and the consequences of a serious mistake here is just more than I can bear to think about right now

[1NaudiA4]

Definitely do your tuning with the o2 feedback off so it doesn't correct anything and you could get the base map down. To tell you the truth I've been running my car for 2 years now in closed loop with out any o2 correction and haven't had any problems what so ever.

I'm also running an OBDII VR6 throttle body controlling idle via the set screw. Its really the simplest method for controlling idle rather than playing with the idle motor.

As for your timing, at idle your advance is fine. Some people like to run a little bit lower more around the 6*-10* range but I've personally had the smoothest idle around 15* so your 12.9* is perfectly fine.

Typically you want to have your max timing into the motor by around 3000rpms so in your case it would be 34.3*.

As a reference for where you should be at once in boost, I'm running 23psi with 14* of timing at 5200rpm/torque peak ramping up to about 19* by 7000rpms on 93oct with intake air temps of about 20*C.

I'm also running 8.5:1 compression pistons if it makes any difference. I'll get you my timing maps off my IIC later on tonight so you could compare them to yours.

[JK35]

Definitely do your tuning with the o2 feedback off so it doesn't correct anything and you could get the base map down. To tell you the truth I've been running my car for 2 years now in closed loop with out any o2 correction and haven't had any problems what so ever.

02 FB is disabled now...

I'm also running an OBDII VR6 throttle body controlling idle via the set screw. Its really the simplest method for controlling idle rather than playing with the idle motor.
I have an OBD1 VR6 TB. I love the simplicity and the fact it fits very nicely with only an adapter plate and a throttle cable roller bracket I made (you can see it in this photo:

I would like to find something to use for an idle control valve / solenoid, because at initial startup when it's cold, I have to do some creative throttle pedal movements and usually have to crank it over a couple times to get it to remain running. Once I warm up even slightly, I can shut down and restart on the first crank, it's only from a cold start that it sometimes takes a couple tries. I picked up a couple Bosch PWM valves a few months ago, but neither test out very well (there's no place that they totally seal up) I'm using an AEM / Mac air solenoid valve for the boost control solenoid, I wonder how a larger one would work for an idle control motor???
Anyone have a better suggestion?


As for your timing, at idle your advance is fine. Some people like to run a little bit lower more around the 6*-10* range but I've personally had the smoothest idle around 15* so your 12.9* is perfectly fine.

Typically you want to have your max timing into the motor by around 3000rpms so in your case it would be 34.3*.
So being in the 30-34 degree range at 3000 rpms is OK?

As a reference for where you should be at once in boost, I'm running 23psi with 14* of timing at 5200rpm/torque peak ramping up to about 19* by 7000rpms on 93oct with intake air temps of about 20*C.

I'm not sure I completely understand this part... If I go up to 22-23psi load at 5200rpms, you're saying the ignition should be at 14, maybe 16 degrees at 6100rpms and then 19 degrees at 7k (this is going aross the 22/23 psi breakpoint)???

I'm also running 8.5:1 compression pistons if it makes any difference. I'll get you my timing maps off my IIC later on tonight so you could compare them to yours.

I run 8.5:1 JE's myself, so I am guessing your ignition map will be pretty close to what I SHOULD be running. I'm not sure how much difference there could be between 034 and AEM when it comes to the ignition map, after all it's only rpm x load x degrees of advance or retard, right?
Thanks so much for all your help! I'm going to continue working on my breakpoints today, and I'll keep updating this page and watching for your next post with your ignition maps. Thanks again!
-Kyle

[JK35]

changed a lot last night... -breakpoints, main ignition and main fuel maps.
The logs are a result of this of course.

EGT's are MUCH higher, but all in all, it is running smoother.

I changed the ignition map to this, but haven't fired it up and tried this out yet.

[1NaudiA4]

I would say that new ignition map you have is a bit to retarded. If your able to log EGT a good way to tune your timing is to start out overly retarded (like that new map you have) and gradually increase timing until the EGT's start to lower and plateau and then pull back a few degrees from there for safety. Why did you pull so much timing out from your other map? your not even getting over 30* now in the lower loads.

[JK35]

for that very reason... and it did produce some high EGT's, I have since worked the ignition over a couple times and it's now making more power with lower EGT's but I still have some more room to advance (I think... -I'll find out tomorrow)

I'm having a hell-of-a-time getting my boost control setup though... I have SOME of the boost maps figured out at least, but it's still a long way off from being what I'd even consider calling "boost control"
To be quite honest, there is just so much flexibility that like every other area of AEMPro, it is overwhelming for a couple days until you can get a grasp on what works with what, how to set it up to even begin tuning and then how the new settings relate to everything else you've spent the past two weeks working on. I'm going to have to make a call to AEM Tech Support tomorrow and either get some advice on setting up my boost control, or else disable boost control entirely and install a MBC until I can get the basic tuning a little closer.
I am typically overshooting my targets. I've hit fuel cut a couple times at 25psi with no detectable knock and no lean out, but I'd rather the wastegate limit boost pressure and not the (last resort) fuel cut...

I'll try to get a couple screen shots later tonight or tomorrow...
It's a night and day difference compared to what's posted above

Have you had a chance to take a screenshot of your ignition map?

[1NaudiA4]

Alright I took some screenshots of my new IIC software. Heres my timing, addition timing, and fueling maps. The timing map is a bit rough because I just switched over to the other 2d style that 034 had in their old software. I'm curious as to how our maps compare now.

[prodrive]

^^ Your timing map is also too much retarded at the lower rpms .. is this dyno mapped? and couldn't see the peak torque line ?

[1NaudiA4]

^^ Your timing map is also too much retarded at the lower rpms .. is this dyno mapped? and couldn't see the peak torque line ?

It is too much retarded in the lower rpms. I have since added about 5* more advance to the low load cells. It is not dyno tuned.... knock is being monitored via a headset and a phormula KS-4. As for the torque line the timing levels out a bit around 5300rpm then I added timing after that.

Feel free to post up maps from your Autotronic, there aren't too many of us running standalone's so any info is helpful.

[Enclave]

For anyone reading this thread and also setting up a standalone. Do not follow what other people have as their timing values. Every standalone reads different and there are so many variables that contribute to the "correct" timing that it is impossible to just compare notes on the matter. Timing should be set on the dyno where you increase timing till peak torque is reached.

If you dont have a dyno it is much more difficult and basically like JK35 was doing, just set the timing where it doesnt run like shit. If your car needs 35 degrees of timing at peak boost and it feels good then you should just run that. All the timing values are relative anyway. But remeber to get it on the DYNO asap.

[1NaudiA4]

For anyone reading this thread and also setting up a standalone. Do not follow what other people have as their timing values. Every standalone reads different and there are so many variables that contribute to the "correct" timing that it is impossible to just compare notes on the matter. Timing should be set on the dyno where you increase timing till peak torque is reached.

If you dont have a dyno it is much more difficult and basically like JK35 was doing, just set the timing where it doesnt run like shit. If your car needs 35 degrees of timing at peak boost and it feels good then you should just run that. All the timing values are relative anyway. But remeber to get it on the DYNO asap.

Couldn't agree more about not using other peoples timing values since every motor/set-up is different. Although if everything is timed up correctly there should not be TOO much variation as far as the timing numbers go. Kyle's high timing numbers might be attributed to his multi-spark ignition system that he is using. Also timing can be adjusted based on EGT as well although dyno tuning is usually the most accurate. When tuning timing via EGT, you slowly add timing until your EGT's lower and plateau. Similar to tuning for MBT where torque raises and then plateau's except opposite since adding timing lowers EGT's.

[prodrive]

I have a CDI ignition (multispark) but my timing is still low compared to him ,and I agree with 1NaudiA4 if the timing is correct then the timing tables should be so much the same. I have 23* @ 20 psi close to 1NaudiA4.

[Enclave]

I have a CDI ignition (multispark) but my timing is still low compared to him ,and I agree with 1NaudiA4 if the timing is correct then the timing tables should be so much the same. I have 23* @ 20 psi close to 1NaudiA4.

I dont think multispark has anything to do with why he is seeing high numbers on his timing map. The above statement about timing being similar if both cars are timed correctly is only valid if you are running the same standalone EMS system. The reason behind this is that each standalone system uses some kind of "interpolation" to determine timing over 720 degrees using teeth on a trigger wheel.