RS4 only 263whp flat from 6k rpm ?!?!

[silverRS4]

Doesn't sound good. In OP, you said the ignition actual timing was 9-15 degrees with 93 octane. Well, it should be about 26-30 degrees with that octane with about 4-5 degrees of retardation occurring, depending on what the intake air temps are [actual timing = target timing - knock correction]. That means your timing retardation is well over 15 degrees. I thought the limit for knock correction was 15 degrees. That would explain the "ping" - there is not enough correction available, so pre-ignition occurs. That is a serious problem. Either the gas is very bad or you have multiple knock sensors that have failed (there are 4). It should also be a simple problem for an Audi dealer to diagnose. Not "go drive 600 miles on a pinging engine and get back to us".

[2manytoys]

Yeah agree, hence my post here :-)

I can't understand why it could be pinging so bad. The fuel is good (from 4 different Shell Service Stations and a BP 100km apart too).

I'll run a tank through and talk to them again. Interestingly they said I need to drive it hard. That seems odds given the fact the car is pinging under easy driving.

[2manytoys]

I've just herd that no one in Australia knows what is wrong with my car. they know there is a problem but Audi have had to get Audi Germany involved to help fix the problem.

Just out of interest, for anyone that has not read the APR ECU threads, the test car they used shows the same loss of power after 6,000 rpm. I take it the problem is more wide spread than just my car.

I'm getting a few things checked by my local mechanic nd mate (non-Audi) on Wednesday so i'll report back then.

Mal.

[2manytoys]

I've now go the car back. As some have suggested, I can now confirm this was carbon buildup!

A little history. The car slowly lost power, over about 12 months (didn't really feel it go until the end). It began to ping. First every now a then, and then finally multiple times a day.

The carbon buildup was bad, very bad, and enough to cause a major loss of power.

For those concerned, here is a really simple test. I know this now, given the dramatic difference in power, and I mean dramatic!

The simple way to test is:
1. Drive so you can get into second gear.
2. Put your foot flat, and feel the car pull.
3. If you don't have a second noticable burst of power around 6k, and the car doesn't rev even quicker, than between 2-6k rpm, you have a problem. It's as simple as that.

What a disaster, but at least I now know.

I should have pictures of the carbon soon too.

If anyone has any questions, please ask.

Mal.

[McGyver]

Great job at finding a solution, Mal. Unfortunately, I've been feeling the power loss for a few months now. I'll try your test this morning. Carbon clean will be performed within a few weeks. Thank you, sir!

[MontyRS]

2manytoys and McGyver....how often would you guys say you take the car to 8k rpm? Also, can you describe how many miles you have on the car, and what your typical driving situation is (highway, street, combination, etc)??

I ask because every time I approach Audi regarding a potential build-up issue (I have not felt a loss in power, just want to be proactive about any issue), they say that it is almost in situations where the car isn't being driven hard on a regular basis.

I tend the drive very aggressively...changing gears normally around 4/5k rpm, and frequently hitting 7 and sometime 8k rpm. I also drive on the highway quite a bit...As of now, with 34,000 miles, I can't say I've lost any noticeable power (and continue to cross my fingers).

Another question...I notice my the oil temp gauge on my car never goes above 207 degrees. Living in South Florida, this is almost constant...what has been your experience with this? I wonder if there is a correlation between cars that burn hotter, etc??

[jstahmann]

2manytoys and McGyver....how often would you guys say you take the car to 8k rpm? Also, can you describe how many miles you have on the car, and what your typical driving situation is (highway, street, combination, etc)??

I ask because every time I approach Audi regarding a potential build-up issue (I have not felt a loss in power, just want to be proactive about any issue), they say that it is almost in situations where the car isn't being driven hard on a regular basis.

I tend the drive very aggressively...changing gears normally around 4/5k rpm, and frequently hitting 7 and sometime 8k rpm. I also drive on the highway quite a bit...As of now, with 34,000 miles, I can't say I've lost any noticeable power (and continue to cross my fingers).

Another question...I notice my the oil temp gauge on my car never goes above 207 degrees. Living in South Florida, this is almost constant...what has been your experience with this? I wonder if there is a correlation between cars that burn hotter, etc??

There are a lot of theories about this - drive it hard, drive it easy, change oil less frequently, don't overfill the oil, etc, etc.

What 2manytoys describes (flat at 6k and up) sounds like the intake flaps aren't opening up. Maybe they are stuck closed with buildup.

[Keith@APR]

I've now go the car back. As some have suggested, I can now confirm this was carbon buildup!

A little history. The car slowly lost power, over about 12 months (didn't really feel it go until the end). It began to ping. First every now a then, and then finally multiple times a day.

The carbon buildup was bad, very bad, and enough to cause a major loss of power.

For those concerned, here is a really simple test. I know this now, given the dramatic difference in power, and I mean dramatic!

The simple way to test is:
1. Drive so you can get into second gear.
2. Put your foot flat, and feel the car pull.
3. If you don't have a second noticable burst of power around 6k, and the car doesn't rev even quicker, than between 2-6k rpm, you have a problem. It's as simple as that.

What a disaster, but at least I now know.

I should have pictures of the carbon soon too.

If anyone has any questions, please ask.

Mal.

Do you plan to return to that same dyno?

[2manytoys]

Monty - The car never did short trips, always freeway then city. I'd probably give it a squirt to 8k once or twice a day (I drive around 120 miles a day). My car has about 28,000 Miles, with 14000 of that going on since January 2009. My oil temp sits between 217F and 230F in city driving but never over about 244. This is in summer. Winter is normally around 213F. My dealer said I need to give it a harder time.. go figure? They don't know what to say I think.

John - The flaps were tested, I watched this myself, and was the very first test Audi did (at my request). They moved fine.

Keith - Yep, I'll have it on the Dyno very soon, and will post up the graph. I want my mate (and local European Car Mechanic) to remove the Manifold and make sure Audi cleaned it properly. Once I'm sure it will go back to the same Dyno.

The main thing here though, apart from the major loss of power, is how the power flat lines above 6k. The only other graph I've seen that looks like this is APR's one. I'd almost guarantee it's carbon build up for that one too.

[LondonRS4]

Kudos to Audi in Australia. A lot of North American dealers would have blown you off. Guess that's why they charge yoiu more down there
Don't feel bad. They cost about 35% more in Canada compared to the US.

[Keith@APR]

Keith - Yep, I'll have it on the Dyno very soon, and will post up the graph. I want my mate (and local European Car Mechanic) to remove the Manifold and make sure Audi cleaned it properly. Once I'm sure it will go back to the same Dyno.

The main thing here though, apart from the major loss of power, is how the power flat lines above 6k. The only other graph I've seen that looks like this is APR's one. I'd almost guarantee it's carbon build up for that one too.

Would you be interested in testing our new ECU Upgrade around the same time?

[2manytoys]

Keith - PM Sent

My manifold is coming off tomorrow morning to check the job. I'll take some pictures and post them up (sorry, still waiting for the ones from Audi Australia).

Mal.

[McGyver]

2manytoys and McGyver....how often would you guys say you take the car to 8k rpm? Also, can you describe how many miles you have on the car, and what your typical driving situation is (highway, street, combination, etc)??

For the most part, I drive it like I stole it. Hit 8k rpms multiple times per day (unless wife and kids in tow). 8 Track days, 80% highway, 51k miles.

[2manytoys]

Guys, my manifold come off again today. Audi said they cleaned it, and yes the car did feel better as I said.

Here are some pictures


Close up with Snapon Camera


Yuck


Dirty then Clean!


I'm having them cleaned properly this time (by Gosford European Car Services), and will let everyone know what the car feels like later (may be tomorrow though). Oh, forgot to say; the carbon is so bad the valves didn't seat (that's after Audi "cleaned" it)

Mal.

[teknostar]

It looks like Audi just ran a cleaner through it, and did not even take it apart to clean.

It should feel like a new car after cleaning that much gunk off the valves.

[RS4POWER]

So Audi cleaned one valve in each port? That is ridiculous. That is exactly why I had to inspect every step of the way when I had mine cleaned up. I refused to let them put it back together unless I saw the final product. It is a PITA job, nobody would want to do it.

BTW what is that snap on camera? Boroscope? I did not know you can go down the RS4 IM.

[EuroB6]

so what happens now? when will it happen again. obviously it's some type of flaw and there is no "Fix" for it. One of my main reasons why I didnt get the RS4

[KryptoniK]

so what happens now? when will it happen again. obviously it's some type of flaw and there is no "Fix" for it. One of my main reasons why I didnt get the RS4

I strongly believe the fix for this would be to run a high performance catch can between the valve cover and oem PCV unit.

[2manytoys]

Sorry, just to clarify, the clean one was done by my local guy (Gosford European Car Services). The dirty one was "apparantly" cleaned by Audi. The dirty one is what all the valves looked like when my local guy pulled the manifold off. He sent me that picture as a comparision (after he cleaned the one on the right).

I hope that helps.

Mal.

[Ill 3.0]

Are you sending those pictures to Audi then to ask why they aren't capable of cleaning valves?

[Keith@APR]

Are you sending those pictures to Audi then to ask why they aren't capable of cleaning valves?

The dealership procedure currently consists of spraying some special Audi cleaner and running it through.

Audi knows this doesn't work very well but the only other idea they've had is to walnut shell blast em clean which they won't put into part of the procedure at the dealership level.

[Sharkfin]

That's the worst carbon buildup I've ever seen on these engines.

[Ill 3.0]

The dealership procedure currently consists of spraying some special Audi cleaner and running it through.

I know but at least its documentation that their procedure is inadequate.

[Keith@APR]

I know but at least its documentation that their procedure is inadequate.

Dig up the VW patent for FSI. The patent author even mentions the problem of carbon buildup and that the only solution is a catch can but VAG couldn't do it because of emissions standards.

Pretty interesting read.

[Ill 3.0]

Dig up the VW patent for FSI. The patent author even mentions the problem of carbon buildup and that the only solution is a catch can but VAG couldn't do it because of emissions standards.

Pretty interesting read.

Cool info, thanks .

[boostinfd]

Has anyone done the catch can mod and noticed the difference in the build up?

[2manytoys]

I've been talking to my mechanic about this at the moment. I'll let you know if we manage to fit one, and if it helps later.

[frrg]

Very good information and a wonderful thread as well 2manytoys, I must say that those pictures you posted are the worse case of CB i've seen. My ride has started acting up as of late and I too will be removing my IM and putting through a proper cleaning....And with the help of a few users installing a P/P IM. Once thats cleaned you will be stronger than ever Keep the information coming.....Goods stuff man


cheers

[FarmerBob]

Guys, my manifold come off again today. Audi said they cleaned it, and yes the car did feel better as I said.

I'm having them cleaned properly this time (by Gosford European Car Services), and will let everyone know what the car feels like later (may be tomorrow though). Oh, forgot to say; the carbon is so bad the valves didn't seat (that's after Audi "cleaned" it)

Mal.

Did you say you're having an independent shop clean your intake manifold AFTER Audi says they cleaned it? It's amazing you paid that much for an RS4 that is still covered under warranty, they say they cleaned it, and now you have to pay someone else to get the work done properly? I'd sent Audi the bill after your indy shop is done.

[FarmerBob]

Sorry, just to clarify, the clean one was done by my local guy (Gosford European Car Services). The dirty one was "apparantly" cleaned by Audi. The dirty one is what all the valves looked like when my local guy pulled the manifold off. He sent me that picture as a comparision (after he cleaned the one on the right).

I hope that helps.

Mal.

Mal, I've got an S4 (not RS4) but does anyone know if this carbon build up is a problem for S4's also? Pardon the ignorance, but how can carbon build up to this level for a car after only 30K miles or so, and how would a catch can fix the problem? Isn't this a design flaw that should be remedied via a recall or manufacturer fix or TSB? Here, it doesn't look like Audi did much to fix the build up, versus what the OP's indy shop did. Why should be have to pay for that if it's covered under warranty? Just wondering...

[2manytoys]

I didn't think the S4 was Direct Injection. If it's not, I don't think you'll have anything to worry about.

Mal.

[2manytoys]

Ok, it's now clean :D





The power difference again is amazing. While there was a noticable difference at about 6k after Audi "cleaned" the intake, now there is a significant power surge from about 5.5k rpm and can only be described like having turbo's.

Guys, this power difference, and power delivery is amazing. It pulls VERY hard!

I'll have it back to the Dyno within a couple of weeks and show you the real numbers.

Unless something else broke, I'd probably say all our RS4's are effected by this, either a slight carbon build up, or major like mine. When a 4.2 Ltr makes ~420hp, and needs to rev to 8k, the intake needs to be up to sratch to see all the power.

Stay Tuned

Mal.

[frrg]

Congrats Man....Looks nice and clean

[KryptoniK]

Good news! What cleaning method did your shop use? That looks spotless.

[2manytoys]

Loads and loads of carbie cleaner (4 cans) and a dremel with a fabric brush on the end. He has ordered a walnut blaster thing for next time ;-)

[FarmerBob]

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the independent shop charge to take off the manifold and clean it all, and are you sending the bill to Audi directly?

[2manytoys]

I'll be talking to Audi Australia about this. I'm more concerned about what happened as Audi Australia had authorised the dealer to clean the intake (based on what Audi Germany had told them) but as you can see, it wasn't cleaned. I'm not worried about a little carbon, but it was bad and not cleaned.

My mechanic took 2 hours to remove the Manifold, 12 hours to clean all 16 Intake Valves and another 2 hours to put it all back together. Most good European Mechanics here in Oz charge more than $125 per hour, so it's not cheap. HOWEVER, the performance difference is amazing!

[sakimano]

I'll be talking to Audi Australia about this. I'm more concerned about what happened as Audi Australia had authorised the dealer to clean the intake (based on what Audi Germany had told them) but as you can see, it wasn't cleaned. I'm not worried about a little carbon, but it was bad and not cleaned.

My mechanic took 2 hours to remove the Manifold, 12 hours to clean all 16 Intake Valves and another 2 hours to put it all back together. Most good European Mechanics here in Oz charge more than $125 per hour, so it's not cheap. HOWEVER, the performance difference is amazing!

holy crap! So normal guy would have to pay about 1500-2000 AUSD...or about $1000-1500 USD. If they cut you a deal, more like $750-1000.

That's insane. Definitely should be part of Audicare.

I wonder how many miles it takes to get like this?

[sakimano]

Keith (APR)...are you guys going to be redoing your software dyno? As I said to you in other threads about that RS4 result on your dyno....that car was very sick (and not the MTV sick...the bad sick). Sounds like it was impaired to the tune of 30-60whp.

[bryzf1]

holy crap! So normal guy would have to pay about 1500-2000 AUSD...or about $1000-1500 USD. If they cut you a deal, more like $750-1000.

That's insane. Definitely should be part of Audicare.

I wonder how many miles it takes to get like this?

I'm wondering the same thing... i've got 7k miles on my RS4 and I clearly need to get a catch can on there immediately!