RS4 only 263whp flat from 6k rpm ?!?!

[2manytoys]

Yep, after the last problem the entire manifold was replaced. The "readiness code" was reset and I have the car back. The PCV has also been replaced, but carbon is coming back again (I don't think enough to cause any problems yet).

The surge at 5500 is very inconsistant. Basically at an air temp of 25C (or 77F) the car has no surge (i'm getting some mild detonation at this air temp too). The timing is around 18-22 degrees. When the outside air temp is about 18C (around 64F) the car has its power back (most of the time anyway) and timing is around 28 degrees. I feel timing should be in the mid 30's at 25C and maybe even more when it's colder. I don't have any reference, or comparision, so I can't say for sure what the timing should be.

My gut feel (not backed up by any fact yet) is that carbon has caused the compression to rise and maybe the I'm getting some knocking when the air temp is just that little bit warmer?? There is HEAPS of carbon on the top of the piston, maybe this has raised the compression, but I don't know if that could cause this?

The other cause could be a faulty knock sensor as another member has pointed out in another post. I was measuring a few things, and a number that could have been the knock count, but I'm not sure. At idle the number was around 30, but rev'ing raised it to about 90, but again I'm not sure what this was, so I can't really point to that yet.

My service manager is away at the moment, but they are all over the problem now (with help from Audi Australia). The guys will get to the bottom of this and as soon as this new problem is fould I'll post it up.

Any thoughts anyone?

[GotRS?]

I haven't seen any mention in the CB threads I've read about leaky valve guide seals adding to the oil. I know Audi are removing heads and replacing the seals on some.

[ArthurPE]

I haven't seen any mention in the CB threads I've read about leaky valve guide seals adding to the oil. I know Audi are removing heads and replacing the seals on some.

really?
that's my wag, leaky valve guides/seals...

and the effectiveness of the seal has several factors, imo
break-in procedure, higher speed, better finished/polished surface, plus frequent changes for the first 10k miles
engine temp, the warmer, the more expansion, the tighter the sael...perhpas the reason for the RS5 revised +10C operating temp (if true)
oil cleanliness (particles willcause small gaps, ie, leaks) and oil weight, thick = less seepage...

that is very interesting info, thanks

[GotRS?]

Intake on this car is very oily too, so valve seals are not the only culprit for the oil in with the carbon deposit, I'll report back later.

@2manytoys, good luck, been following for some time, no intent to hijack the thread, just adding the latest info I came across.

[2manytoys]

All good. This thread is designed to list as much information as I can. I have some smart people helping, including Audi, but the more input the better.

Can anyone make any comments about the timing with respect to air temp. What should the timing advance be at a specific air temp, using 98RON (I think it's the same as 93MON?). What else could cause timing to retard in this case if Carbon Buildup isn't huge?

[diagnosticator]

All good. This thread is designed to list as much information as I can. I have some smart people helping, including Audi, but the more input the better.

Can anyone make any comments about the timing with respect to air temp. What should the timing advance be at a specific air temp, using 98RON (I think it's the same as 93MON?). What else could cause timing to retard in this case if Carbon Buildup isn't huge?

The only comments that are relevant here is that there is no specified ignition advance timing angle according to the IAT and fuel octane rating used. Our engines use the knock sensors to determine how much ignition advance and boost pressure can be used at any specific time, and that is also influenced by the sum of the Torque Demands that must be satisfied using the two primary Torque Control paths available, one being the short time intervals available via the crankshaft, piston position and working stroke for each cylinder, and ignition timing advance employed, together with the long time interval torque control path of the boost pressure used and Throttle opening angle. The maximum ignition timing advance angle that does not provoke knock onset activity in the combustion process is the set point for ignition timing advance, and is a constantly changing variable value. The relationship between IAT and ignition timing advance angle is inversely dependent. As IAT increases, the maximum ignition timing advance that can be used with out provoking knock onset decreases and vice versa. But there are a lot of other factors involved that complicate the situatioin at any instantainious point in time during the combustion process in each cylinder, that is a result of operating conditipons existing at the moment.

[2manytoys]

If it helps, the runs were in 2nd gear, start at about 2000 rpm, foot flat. At an air temp of 25C the timing was max 22 degrees, at 18C it was maxed about 28 I think. This is all the way to 8000 rpm. The timing that I graphed was pretty flat and consistant too (only changing 2-4 degrees at most). I thought it was pretty odd given that an air temp of 25C isn't really "hot".

The weird thing is that the surge you normally feel at 6000 rpm was gone at 25C, but at 18C the timing wasn't advanced anymore later in the run (it also stayed around 28 degrees (timing) throughout).

Also, out of interest, when I had heaps of carbon the timing was around 9-13 degrees doing the same run, so yeah, the timing advance has a huge impact on power, and the carbon we have all experianced may not be restricting air flow (as pointed out before) it's the timing being pulled back that is the cause.

Can someone else look at their timing for me and let me know what they get. Ideally you don't have carbon ;-)

[GotRS?]

recently my timing was logged during a check-up at a tuner, it was around -30deg under full load consistantly to over 8k, air temp was 20-25C, all looked good to the tuner. This is with 91oct gas (max in California) at about 1000ft. When it's warmer you can feel the power go down as usual. One day I'll mix some 100oct (available here and there) to see the effect, but I understand that it won't get much above 30deg advance anyway. I do have carbon though, cleaning in progress, 20k miles.

[jalas]

Keeping up with your adventures. I decided run my car a few times today and capture some mass air flow measurements and timing.

A little history:
- Carbon cleaning and port and polish at 40,000 completed back in late December
- Car is now sitting at 45,200 miles.
- Changed the oil 4 times:
- After CB cleanup with Penzoil Euro Blend 5w-40 (2500 miles on oil)
- Before tracking the car changed oil to Penzoil Euro Blend 5w-40
- After tracking the car for about 1hr. Hit 275F temperature and changed oil with Penzoil Euro Blend 5w-40 (total miles ~200)
- Just recently with RLI BIOsyn - Did notice lower oil temps but I have hit 230F once but most of the time it sits around 216 with bumps in temperature to low 220s. Appears to keep temps down.

Two runs below both completed at 93F ambient temperature.

I need to compare both runs to some old files back when the air temp was about 40F. I was surprised to see mass air flow readings that high although I do recall them being close to 160g/s back after the cleaning. I'll try to run the car again with a clean air filter. Also timing does not look bad to me either. Things are looking good (cross fingers)!

2nd gear pull:



3rd gear pull:

[2manytoys]

That's awesome! Thanks. It's what I'd expect it to be but I wasn't sure about the RS4 so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks again, it's guys like you that really help out.

So now I need to figure out why mine is being pulled back so far.

I'll try to get some video and pictures on the inside and the valves tomorrow.

Mal

[jalas]

Intake on this car is very oily too, so valve seals are not the only culprit for the oil in with the carbon deposit, I'll report back later.

@2manytoys, good luck, been following for some time, no intent to hijack the thread, just adding the latest info I came across.

You are right about a lot of oil in the intake manifold. This pick I took back in December shows just how much after sitting the manifold down for about 1 hour. This was where the throttle body meets the intake manifold.




Back of cyclonic separator.

[2manytoys]

Hey, just a quick update:

After some more tests by Audi, the thought was maybe the injectors were the problem. Anyway, once the manifold was removed, this is what they found:



This is about 5000km (about 3100ml) since it was last removed and cleaned! So now the thoughts are excessive blow-by. The PCV can't handle the volume, and the amount of oil making it's way into the combustion chamber is causing pinging and some timing to be pulled back.

Only a guess, but I'm wondering once the carbon builds up to a point the oil (and bits of carbon) start to go into the combustion chamber and causes problems. I take it that it can't keep building up to massive levels as the velocity of the air would get faster and help push it through??? But like I said this is a guess.

[Horch999]

Why don't you just give up, and get something else. or do you like the hassle

[ArthurPE]

Why don't you just give up, and get something else. or do you like the hassle

his car in 65F temps ran a vagcom verified 8.3 sec 3k-8k 3rd gear, he posted the logs (total advance was 27 deg up until 7800, then it was backed off by the limiter)
saloon spec is 8.4 or so at this temp
his is a vert and weighs >200 lbs more
obviously deposits have little, if any, impact

[PetrolDave]

obviously deposits have little, if any, impact

+1

I wonder how often this is going to have to be posted before people will "get it"?

[WinterRunner]

You know the net, it will always be up for talk. At least a few of us get it. ......

[ArthurPE]

You know the net, it will always be up for talk. At least a few of us get it. ......

man, you have to see the log...
timing
mixture (lambda, actual vs setpoint)
picture perfect, textbook...the control system is so accurate and responsive it brings a tear to this engineer's eye , lol :D

[2manytoys]

Horch - Type in 300+ kw, 4WD convertible under $100k and let me know what else is out there. It is a good car when it's running right.

Just so everyone knows, the 3000-8000rpm run was done as the problems were starting to come back (it was running about 27 degrees timing with 18C outside). By the time it made it into the shop (about 8 weeks later) it was only running 22 degrees timing with 15 degrees C outside air. The run was actually to point out that a car with a slight problem will run 8 secs too. My point really was the opposite to it's claim. I don't think the 3000-8000 test proves much at all. As you know, one guy was timing 8.6 seconds but as soon as he got VACGOM it was 9 secs. It's just too unreliable without VAGCOM.

Anyway, my car was/is acknowledged as "broken" and Audi didn't have to do that test to work it out.

Will keep everyone posted.

[mattlqx]

You know the net, it will always be up for talk. At least a few of us get it. ......

You know the net, people will always be debating if the moon landings were real. At least a few of us get it.

[ArthurPE]

You know the net, people will always be debating if the moon landings were real. At least a few of us get it.

you don't think the moon landings were real?

[2manytoys]

The quest to find the cause of the carbon buildup and retarded timing continues. I'm glad the guys at Audi are taking this serious and really going to these length's to find the problem and fix it.







More pictures to come tomorrow (hopefully the inside of an RS4 Engine)

[speedydragon]

lemon law...get your money back and move on to another car.

[WinterRunner]

You know the net, people will always be debating if the moon landings were real. At least a few of us get it.

What are you getting at? You think the moon landings were staged? How about Kennedy? Was it Oswald?

[tadhgbrosnan]

I love the RS4 but I test drove one for the first time recently and I was thoroughly disappointed. An '08 w/ 18k miles and it was a dog. It felt as slow or slower than my car. No real kick at all above 5500rpm. In fairness, it had been owned by a rich, young kid who clearly did not take care of it but, nevertheless, it was a buzzkill for me. The RS4 was high on my list as my "Next Car" purchase but the carbon issue might be a deal killer.

[WinterRunner]

If you didn't get the surge after 5.5K then it was a vaccuum leak, not carbon. Most likey anyways....

[ArthurPE]

myself and others pointed out from your logs that there was no timing or mixture issue
your vagcom times were 8.25 sec for a vert...better than the spec
are you saying the Audi dealer has pulled your engine under warranty? what dealer?
for what reason?
didn't you show pictures of pitted pistons after an independent shop worked on your car?

The quest to find the cause of the carbon buildup and retarded timing continues. I'm glad the guys at Audi are taking this serious and really going to these length's to find the problem and fix it.




More pictures to come tomorrow (hopefully the inside of an RS4 Engine)

[2manytoys]

Ok, the run was done at night, with outside air temps of 18' C. Yes it was ok at these temps (even though you can see heaps of timing still being pulled). During the day, at 25'C, it was bad. Before it was put in the shop (Audi shop) they did a test, 15'C outside air temp, and it was running timing of 22'C.

Yes, Audi are doing this under warranty with Audi Austraila's support. The dealer is Central Coast Audi in Australia, they are top guys, and have seen the problem first hand (heard the pinging, and measured the timing).

The Independant is Gosford European Car Services, the owner is a great guy, and if it wasn't for him I'm sure I'd still be fighting Audi. He is the one that fixed the first Carbon Buildup problem, and found that the bad pinging I had that was "possibly" causing damage (we can see the pitting, but I wont know until later today (hopefully) if it really is bad).

We are here now; as Audi were really not sure what to do. They pulled the manifold off to change the injectors, and when they did, they found heaps of carbon again (only after 5000kms). They immediately knew it probably isn't the injectors.

The thought from Audi is blow-by (the cause of carbon buildup, and pinging). Audi don't think it valve seals at this stage (hence the engine being pulled apart). I wonder if it's as simple as the oil stops at the hot valves, but later some make it's way into cylinder. I know that carbon falls off the valves into the cylinder as I've seen the pieces missing myself (so has Audi).

PS: Arthur, I know you don't think it's a problem, and I appreciate that line of thought (yes, 3000-8000rpm test etc) but can I just ask that we keep this thread clean as it's a good example of the whole process (please don't take offence I really mean none, I just didn't want to go through the yes it is, no it isn't round-about). Obviously I'm happy to answer any questions about the process and what Audi are finding.

[ArthurPE]

I'll be contacting Johan (President of Audi of America) to see if he can shed any light on this...
pulling an engine (for what? repair? reapir what?, inspect? inspect what?) is pretty serious for carbon deposits...and perceived timing loss (an electronic issue requiring no engine removal)...I'll also forward the VagCom printout...I'd be curious to hear what they saw that we didn't

Yes, Audi are doing this under warranty with Audi Austraila's support. The dealer is Central Coast Audi in Australia, they are top guys, and have seen the problem first hand (heard the pinging, and measured the timing).

[2manytoys]

Just remember the print out you have doesn't show a lot of timing loss. It degraded over time (about 6 weeks). Let him know that it went from 28 to 22 degrees and was pinging at random. The 22 degrees was on Audi's Vagcom equivalent (not my laptop) in 15'C outside temp too!

I'm sure there are others out there, just not forum junkies like me, going through all this.

I should have more news tomorrow (you'll have to let me know what Johan says, happy for you to send in via PM).

Mal.

[ArthurPE]

Just forwarded it to the president Audi of America
it deserves attention...if your engine is being pulled due to deposit related damage and timing issues (contrary to the logs) this is a major deal...
I'd be curious as to what logic lead them to remove and replace/rebuild the engine!
I won't have let him know anything, he can get whatever information he needs

Just remember the print out you have doesn't show a lot of timing loss. It degraded over time (about 6 weeks). Let him know that it went from 28 to 22 degrees and was pinging at random. The 22 degrees was on Audi's Vagcom equivalent (not my laptop) in 15'C outside temp too!

I'm sure there are others out there, just not forum junkies like me, going through all this.

I should have more news tomorrow (you'll have to let me know what Johan says, happy for you to send in via PM).

Mal.

[2manytoys]

Yep, it was the amount of carbon that built up after only 5000km.

The dealer, and Audi Aus, didn't know what was the cause of the timing issue at first, and were just going to change the injectors, just in case they were the cause.They weren't convinced it was injectors, but didn't really know what else could cause the timing to be pulled back so much. Once the manifold was off and they saw the carbon (again) it all went in another direction.

[ArthurPE]

well, they have everything, I'll be curious to hear their take...I'm guessing there is more to the story
the log indicated that your car was running perfect...and the run was made the day you posted it, so deposits were present...
the run was made at 70F, the std for rating, and timing was perfect...any colder it really won't advance much more, warmer it will retard more, as is natural...
from the log there appears to be no issue with the engine, that's why I'm interested in why they pulled it....
I will not post what they share with me, they will prefer to keep it confidential...
you may want to be careful also, making assertions that your engine is damaged from carbon deposits...
that is not what Audi believes...and if you want cooperation from them it may be better to not place unwarranted blame...is your car still under warranty?
even after having an independent open it up? perhaps they caused the problem by accident by 'cleaning'?

btw: the deposits are normal, you will find them any time you open up an RS4 (all DI), even 1k miles after cleaning
they will never go away...it's normal, or so Audi says...

Yep, it was the amount of carbon that built up after only 5000km.

The dealer, and Audi Aus, didn't know what was the cause of the timing issue at first, and were just going to change the injectors, just in case they were the cause.They weren't convinced it was injectors, but didn't really know what else could cause the timing to be pulled back so much. Once the manifold was off and they saw the carbon (again) it all went in another direction.

[jalas]

I'll be contacting Johan (President of Audi of America) to see if he can shed any light on this...
pulling an engine (for what? repair? reapir what?, inspect? inspect what?) is pretty serious for carbon deposits...and perceived timing loss (an electronic issue requiring no engine removal)...I'll also forward the VagCom printout...I'd be curious to hear what they saw that we didn't

ArthurPE - First and foremost I don't want the rest of the post to sound like I am attacking you. I just want to understand your POV.

Just curious but how are you in with the President of AoA? It would be a good idea if you posted exactly what you ask of AoA and specifically Johan. Why not full disclosure? You don't speak for all of us and from what I see on this board you are constantly attacked by others. It makes it hard to trust that you are not dispelling what others have documented through various dyno runs and measurements. It seems most RS4 owners frequent Quattroworld vs Audizine yet I never see you post there. Why is that?

If you are a contributing member here you should at least contribute openly (positive or negative) with what Audi has to say. Why they would give you confidential information about someone else's car and not the owner of the car? Can you please explain this? This is bad business practice! Do you have some sort of open NDA with Audi? What is the connection?

This was my first run with Audi products and I am disappointed with the dealer service, the numerous campaigns that in some cases don't work (DRC recall to Rev B....yes mine are leaking again after 6000miles but again that is normal). I have been contemplating selling my Audi halo car and moving away from the Audi brand because of all these issues. I'll make a decision within the next month but I'm pretty much done with Audi.

[ArthurPE]

firstly, I owe you no explanation, especially considering your aggressive and belittling tone...
especially when you start off with " I'm not attacking you ", then proceed to do exactly that...
but I will humor you...

simple, I wrote him, a very thorough and technical letter on deposits, he responded, and there has been communication back & forth...not 'in', just not afraid to ask...he, and those who work for him, were gracious enough to reply...
I will keep the stuff they want confidential, confidential...period...anybody who wants to can write him...do your own work, no one is stopping you...

I do not seek yours (or anyones 'trust') I don't know you guys...why would I want your 'trust'? trust is earned by working together...
this is like a bar...you trust strangers in a bar? at least in a bar the a-hole giving you shyte can't hide behind a keyboard ;)
I do not care if people believe me...in my profession very few of the people I work for have any idea of what I'm talking about...that is why they hire me...
to do their thinking in regards to specific subject matter...

I do not have to disclose any more than I choose to...where as you guys offer BS dynos and junk science to 'prove' your position...without ONCE asking Audi their position...I seek facts/knowledge...
I will post (or not) whatever I choose...I do not care to 'share', I do this for personal knowledge, not for your benefit, I assume (mistakenly perhaps) that you guys are smart enough to do your own homework...or have the motivation...I do NOT work for you...I get paid mucho dinero for my services...lol, I use them for my families, mine, and my clients benefit...

you want some real trouble? buy a BMW...

I felt I owed it to 2many to let him know...in public, not PM...since he posted all his info in public...
information about a car is not confidential, his name is, etc., but not a diagnosis, that's hilarious, it's not like health records!...especially if it debunks false information being posted...
I'm sure they will share this information with him...why wouldn't they?
there are at last 20 Audi forums, can't visit them all...besides, they are all pretty much the same...with the exception of the German ones, no BS there...
did you even look at the logs? he ran an 8.25 in a vert (much heavier, std is 8.5 for a saloon), timing was 30 deg until 7700, then rolled off slightly (soft limiter), mixture was picture perfect...it was PERFECT...and now they are pulling the engine? doesn't make sense

I asked them:
are they pulling the engine for deposit related damage?
I forwarded him the vagcom logs (which btw were perfect)
I consider this serious, an engine being pulled for deposit damage? because the logs show no timing or mixture issues...others have concurred

ArthurPE - First and foremost I don't want the rest of the post to sound like I am attacking you. I just want to understand your POV.

Just curious but how are you in with the President of AoA? It would be a good idea if you posted exactly what you ask of AoA and specifically Johan. Why not full disclosure? You don't speak for all of us and from what I see on this board you are constantly attacked by others. It makes it hard to trust that you are not dispelling what others have documented through various dyno runs and measurements. It seems most RS4 owners frequent Quattroworld vs Audizine yet I never see you post there. Why is that?

If you are a contributing member here you should at least contribute openly (positive or negative) with what Audi has to say. Why they would give you confidential information about someone else's car and not the owner of the car? Can you please explain this? This is bad business practice! Do you have some sort of open NDA with Audi? What is the connection?

This was my first run with Audi products and I am disappointed with the dealer service, the numerous campaigns that in some cases don't work (DRC recall to Rev B....yes mine are leaking again after 6000miles but again that is normal). I have been contemplating selling my Audi halo car and moving away from the Audi brand because of all these issues. I'll make a decision within the next month but I'm pretty much done with Audi.

[jalas]

ArthurePE - It is very difficult to write things on a forum and have them come across as "belittling". I realize that and hence my first sentence. As you may or may not recall in PMs to you I have been nothing but cordial. In hind site maybe I should have PM'ed you.

I'm not going to be aggressive but just wanted to understand your point of view. That is it. The last thing I care to do is be the "a-hole behind the keyboard". I'll ignore your insults for the time being. Again, I just want to understand your point of view.

I guess you are right in some respects. Asking Audi directly about issues surrounding the car may be the best solution. I have tried several times with AoA and have had things escalated with lack luster results and no real answers. Hence, my first question about Johan. I have documented with my District Manager carbon build-up issues, DRC leaking issues (Rev B parts), and basic max oil temp related questions with little feedback. I have documented the same with AoA with no feedback. I don't understand how some owners get more feedback than others. Time to go to the top. I have lost faith and a bit frustrated with the customer service. FYI, not a BMW or MB fan. I am honestly on the fence about selling my car but don't want to be stuck paying for a $20k engine if something goes wrong out of warranty.

I keep track of certain threads and only three boards to see if there are any problems I should be aware. I like Audizine but RS4 content is scarce.

At this point I don't think there is anything to "de-bunk" just yet. 2manytoys has had a paper trail of problems with the car resulting in out of pocket expenses. I'm surprised he still owns the car!

[2manytoys]

Ok, the engine is apart, and it's not good. The (Audi) theory is that the wrong oil was used (not the case) which caused excessive blow-by, which caused excessive carbon build up. The carbon made it's way in the bore, which caused cylinder wall scoring, hence more blow-by, more carbon, more scoring, more of the more!









So, this is now where we are at. Obviously the engine is blown up.

My theory is that the carbon buildup (when this first started) was falling into the cylinder (I have pictures of the valves where the bits of carbon had fallen off). This caused random pinging, and contributed to the damage. The pinging and timimg retard may have come from carbon buildup, it may have come from excess blowby, or it may even come from excess carbon on the piston (causing higher than normal compression). What ever the case, it is what it is, and either carbon is the cause, or the result of another problem, either way carbon is NOT good.

Arthur, stop trying to rubbish the independant, the guys there are top blokes and know what they are doing. In fact, I'm lucky to have both the independant and the dealer close to where I am, if it wasn't for the help from both, the car would be gone. We've had the conversation about carbon before, out of mutual respect, and the benefit of others, I'd really appreciate if you could edit your posts so this thread doesn't turn into a mess like most others.

[ArthurPE]

my theory is when the valves were 'cleaned' the debris got into the cylinder
that is why they try to avoid doing this at all costs...
if the valve is not fully closed and you don't have a vacuum running, bad things will happen...
I'm not 'rubbishing' the independent...this is new territory to him...

on the other hand that may be contaminated oil...
from the scoring pattern it looks like there may have been stuff in the oil...
I'm sure they will analyze an oil sample

[Horch999]

my theory is when the valves were 'cleaned' the debris got into the cylinder
that is why they try to avoid doing this at all costs...
if the valve is not fully closed and you don't have a vacuum running, bad things will happen...
I'm not 'rubbishing' the independent...this is new territory to him...

on the other hand that may be contaminated oil...
from the scoring pattern it looks like there may have been stuff in the oil...
I'm sure they will analyze an oil sample

You an Audi engineer?

[ArthurPE]

You an Audi engineer?

nope, just an engineer who works with engines...
they are all the same for a given type
so are their failure modes

is this work being done by Audi or the independent?
if Audi I'm surprised they are giving you pics and that the engine wasn't returned to Germany for inspection...
was a compression and/or leakdown test performed?
is the car under warranty?

[ArthurPE]

concerning the scoring...
imo those were made on the downstroke by the oil scraper rings, not the upstroke...
debris in the cylinder imo would not cause such deep gouging, it would be pushed, and not trapped by the rings...