[UPDATED] The HPFP Upgrade Thread. (THE APR, AWE, KMD, Autotech, compared!)

[ataylor]

Why do we upgrade our fuel pumps? Thread here: Click

For those of you that don't know the difference between the upgrade options here it is*:

KMD (got mine discounted $230, originally $270, now price has raised to $300 (as of 8/25)):

• sends you the parts,
• gives you documentation on the DIY install, what not to touch with your fingers, etc.
• You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Some info about the KMD's rebuild kit itself:

KMD has used hardened tool steel for the construction of its pump, the material and finishing decisions were to made to specifically combat expansion.

KMD will be offering a 1 year warranty on all the parts included in their kit.

In order to achieve the best possible performance from your fuel pump kit, its is important that you have the most updated factory fuel pump and also have your cam lobe inspected for any unusual wear.

The most updated part numbers for the factory fuel pump is 06F 127 025 J, pumps ending with H will also be ok. No warranty claims for earlier pump revisions will be accepted.

This part number is located on the black plastic sensor on the pump itself.

APR customers should be warned that APR's fuel pump programming is extremely aggressive and may lead to a failure of the fuel pump. This is an "at your own risk" scenario. the non fuel pump specific software is not as aggressive and therefore can be used with the same confidence as other programs.

KMD has also released 40% larger FSI injectors, these injectors have currently supported over 400whp on an FSI motor and will very shortly be making there way into my car.

Product page is here: http://www.kmdtuning.com/index.php?_...productId=1153


AWE ($399):

• sends you the parts,
• gives you the documentation + a video on how to do the upgrade,
• You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Product details:
http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shar...ain&IL=fsihpfp

that video can be found here:
http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/v...E_FSI_HPFP.cfm ,


APR ($649):

• receives your fuel pump,
• runs it through some testing on their fuel pump test stand,
• and if your pump is in good condition, installs their upgrade,
• tests again, and
• mails it back to you.

Product details here: http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

AUTOTECH: ($399)

• sends you the parts,
• gives you documentation on the DIY install, what not to touch with your fingers, etc.
• You are relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of your upgrade, and your own capacity to keep from f*cking up your pump.

Product page here: http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_fuelinj.htm
Product details here: http://www.autotech.com/instructions/i127100k.pdf

*mfrs: you can chime in if I have any of this wrong, obviously.

Why I'm writing this:
So the last time I was talking about fuel pumps, I was in a battle with Audi over my fuel cut issues, and the destruction of my HPFP, cam follower, AND my cam. In short, everything was replaced under warranty after some back-and-forth and citing of the magnusson-moss warranty act. I've put about 4k on the car since then.

That thread is here

innocent trip at first:
The reason for detailing of these offerings from these manufacturers, is that today I decided to swing by NorthAmericanMotorsports (http://www.namotorsports.net) in Vernon, CT. While I was there I was talking with Nick (also has a B7 A4) and he whipped out this little bit of excitement:

Trouble in a plastic baggy:

(of course I gotta sneak the new wheels in there)

it's really a sickness:
I wasn't planning on buying any performance upgrades... in fact getting rubber for the wheels and getting them on the car was the last thing I wanted to do this year. But with the KMD HPFP upgrade was sitting there right in front of me, on a day when I had been unexpectedly paid.. it was too much to resist. It is the cheapest way to go about upgrading your fuel pump.. as you do the upgrade yourself and (in this case) there was no waiting for shipping involved, and no down-time without my car. Please remember that upgrading your fuel pump, without testing, should really only be considered with new-revision pumps, with low miles on them. More on this below..

For my situation... KMD over awe, autotech, apr solutions:
Since I have a new fuel pump from Audi (only 4k on it) I'm pretty confident I don't need to pay to have it tested in a HPFP tester prior to being upgraded. If it was a pump with 20k on it, I wouldn't have bought the KMD product—or any rebuild kit for that matter. If you have a high mileage pump, or a pump that's been running chipped for 10k or more.. send it to APR. Don't take the chance..

Discount:
Finally, I was selling back my like-new NewSouth Pod and Gauge package because I upgraded to a VEI digital gauge and PODI.ca gauge. I was going to mail it back to PODI for a $40 refund on my purhase, but sold it back to NAmotors instead, and avoided shipping something to Canada for a $5 net return. Sorry, Winston! Anyway.. this got me $40 off the KMD kit. I can't say it enough guys, DEAL WITH NAMOTORSPORTS. Nick Wagner will find a way to hook you up.

So anyway I went for it.. and I'll be installing it Wednesday after work. When that happens, I'll edit this thread and change it to an install DIY or overview. Then when I return to NAmotorsports next Sat. to get re-flashed with the HPFP file.. I'll write a real review.

My other reviews (if you find them helpful.. +rep )
VMR Test pipe
VEI Systems Digital Boost Gauge
Koni FSD/Eibach Pro + RS4 Swaybar

[AWDTURBO]

i met the guys from NAM at waterfest cool guys!

[Mike@APR]

APR ($649): receives your fuel pump, runs it through some testing on their fuel pump test stand, and if your pump is in good condition -- installs their stuff and mails it back to you.

*mfrs: you can chime in if I have any of this wrong, obviously.

Please allow me to correct you on the APR FSI Pump Rebuild Process. When we receive your pump, we DO test the pump as-is in order to determine if there are any issues with those items that we DO NOT replace as part of the rebuild. This includes the Solenoid-Controlled Pressure Valve, the Pulsation Damper, and the housing unit in general (fittings, seals, etc.). The pump is then rebuilt with APR internals and then tested AGAIN to verify the that the APR parts are running correctly and that there were no issues during the assembly process.

So, you are not exactly paying just to have your as-is pump tested and then rebuilt. You are paying to have your pump (1) Tested As-Is (OEM), (2) Rebuilt, and (3) Tested Again to Meet APR Specs.

I just wanted to clarify this because of the way you worded your statement about our rebuild process. If I were a general consumer reading your original post, I would think that APR tests my pump as-is and then rebuilds it and ships it. And if I had an brand new pump, I would feel the same way that you do. However, the first test we do is only to ensure that we are rebuilding a known good pump. The second test is where we verify that our rebuild process has given you a pump that...

1. Will not seize
2. Will make the target flow rate at full vehicle rail pressure (we test each pump at 130 bar or 1886 PSI)
3. Meets efficiency standards that are at least as good as the OEM pump
4. Will not leak fuel into your oil system due to faulty or worn seals (it is easy to damage a seal when rebuilding a pump. In the case of the DIY pump kits, you won't know until you smell your oil and realize it has been diluted by gasoline. Not to mention, brand new seals are part of every APR rebuild)
5. Has a properly functioning solenoid valve to ensure that demand for fuel is always met with pressurized fuel from the pump

Now, like I have always said, this doesn't make us perfect or God-like in any way. However, we believe that these are the minimum basic requirements for selling this type of product. Honestly, how many of you feel comfortable buying something that has never been tested? What if Audi never started your car and ran it though a basic quality control process before placing it for sale at your local dealership? These questions will help you get an idea of what ran though our minds when we decided that testing was necessary for this critical part.

This is not meant to start a pump war in this thread. I am just stating APR's position on the matter for clarification since our name was used as a reference for comparison by the OP.

[ataylor]

thanks Mike - edited for accuracy The whole point is to have an accurate comparison for people shopping for these products or at least searching in this forum for their options.

If any thing else needs correcting anyone should feel free to speak up. To be honest I really started this thread because I always thought when the time came for hpfp - I would send mine in to APR! Getting a new pump to work with, and coming across this deal .. it's really the only time I'm be ok with not putting the thing through testing. But any pump over 20k or that's been running chipped for ~10k.. I would essentially want a new pump with the rebuild.

I do need to be careful with the seals. Let me ask you this -- do you think this is not a procedure that can be done properly by the customer? Should the idea of pump rebuild kits for DIY not be available? I know it's supposed to be a delicate procedure -- but lets hear from some people who have done it + length on the setup?

will post(link to) install videos later

[RedS-line]

ataylor, i had my cam and follower replaced but they did not replace my fuel pump. since i passed 40k, i bought a brand new pump and had it rebuilt by kmd with zero miles on it. I kept my old fuel pump as a backup. So far i've driven it for a few thousand miles without a problem. The power after the 2+ flash is good when its cold out but in this summer i dont see much of a difference during the day so if you dont have an intercooler then dont expect much when its hot out. I dont know how handy you are, but if you arent confident that you can be meticulous about the process then id let a professional do it. Ive also heard the the seals seal up to a particular size with time and that can cause leaks if you upgrade the piston when the seal cant handle the size since its already formed so lets hope your seals are still good.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Subscribed...I am sitting here patiently because I want to hear the results you will get from the KMD pump mixed with APR software. Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this one!!!!

[Todd/AWE]

AWE ($399): receives your fuel pump, installs their upgrade, mails it back to you. You are still relying on the integrity and condition of your fuel pump at the time of the upgrade

This is incorrect.

Our pump is a 100% DIY install. We send you lab certified parts and you install it in your own pump.

And we were the first and possibly still the only DIY pump company with a comprehensive install video, specialty install tools included, and we keep the proven factory retainer design to minimize follower wear:

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/v...E_FSI_HPFP.cfm

[ataylor]

This is incorrect.

Our pump is a 100% DIY install. We send you lab certified parts and you install it in your own pump.

And we were the first and possibly still the only DIY pump company with a comprehensive install video, specialty install tools included, and we keep the proven factory retainer design to minimize follower wear:

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/videos/v...E_FSI_HPFP.cfm

Will update to reflect - thx

also - added links to each MFR's product page for the FSI fuel pump upgrade

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Don't forget to put some info about the autotech pump in this thread if you want to cover all your bases!

[ataylor]

Don't forget to put some info about the autotech pump in this thread if you want to cover all your bases!

will do.. ill do some research on it during lunch today. also - if anyone has it installed and comes by this thread -- fill us in.

[AudiWxGuy]

Cheaper may work...for a little while..

[ataylor]

Cheaper may work...for a little while..

We should talk about the differences in price, and where these differences come from.

Then determine how much of this price difference (from $250, to $400, to $650 or even $1k with a new pump)is explained by:

• cost of goods sold, based on price of materials involved, coating technologies, etc
• level of bulk purchasing these MFR's are using to keep their (and our) costs low,
• the hours/labor involved in rebuilding our pumps for us (in APR's case)
• use/wear/depreciation of testing machines during testing (in APR's case -- I'm sure paying for the testing stand is a partial responsibility of the rebuild program), and finally
• the % mark-up and brand equity that tack on the last bit of cost on our end.

Since it seems APR is the only company that does a rigorous testing of the pumps before & after the installs -- there's really no comparison there. If you've got a pump with any REAL miles on it, this should really be your only option.

So let's get into the actual parts themselves? (Links provided above should be a start..?)

[Nobuttsechs4me]

I would love to see a comparison on internals:

APR
Autotech
KMD
AWE

Wish I had the money to buy all pump and do a thorough evaluation of the actual parts that are going into the pump!!!!

[ataylor]

also -- can someone from KMD/AWE/APR/Autotech chime in on this issue:

re: followers (from another thread)

how often do they go bad?
Does KMD-or OEM AUDI are they any diffrent from each other?

KMD makes a cam follower - it's a bit thicker than the OEM one. At first, this sounds like a good solution to the wearing, but I've heard that increasing the thickness of the surface is fundamentally wrong when the actual function of the follower is considered.

can we discuss this too? I was never told what the specific problem was with thickening the follower. thanks!

[Nobuttsechs4me]

you would get more technical answers over on vwvortex in the technical 2.0tfsi section.

I doubt any of the vendors will come into this thread and mention specifics about the parts included for the pump. That is something we would have to do on our own

[ataylor]

post updated
-added autotech
-added more links to other mfr's
-re organized to resemble more of a guide, with my 'story' at the bottom

this may not be valuable this year, but wait until more of you cross the 50-60k mark, or 20-30k on your chips ;)

[ataylor]

Mike/Keith @ APR

JUST how aggressive is the HPFP file!? :) Obviously it's tested to work well with your HPFP, but with other MFR's ^ warning customers about using their HPFP with your software, should I really be worried?

[Mike@APR]

Mike/Keith @ APR

JUST how aggressive is the HPFP file!? :) Obviously it's tested to work well with your HPFP, but with other MFR's ^ warning customers about using their HPFP with your software, should I really be worried?

Did I miss something? What other manufacturers are warning customers about their HPFP with our software and what are the reasons behind this warning?

From a fueling standpoint, the software sets the requested fuel pressure, requested air-fuel ratio, and the requested demand for fuel based on how much load (aka boost) you are requesting. It's pretty basic. There's more risk in the fuel pump design/manufacturing than in the settings in the ECU for fuel request.

Please help me understand with detail what these warnings are and maybe I can answer your question more directly. APR being touted as the "most aggressive" is a new one for me so I would like to know what is eactly are customers being warned about.

[Todd/AWE]

(I have to admit that sort of a disclaimer is a new one on me, too. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it given how the high pressure system is also mechanically limited by a relief valve.)

[ataylor]

Sorry, Mike -- I added a quote above to the OP, but here is a link to the original mention of KMD warning their customers (specifically, their HPFP upgrade customers) about running their HPFP with APR tuning:

http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42753&page=3

scroll down to Phil @ BSH's post

If you could read some of the concerns there (about APR's 130bar tuning) and let us know if this is something that will require APR tuned cars to only safely run the APR built HPFP, that would be great. I'd hate to throw this thing on my car and have it blow up because of the software (that I love). And I think we'd all understand if you told us "look, we tune our software to run with our products".. I'd just like to know that before I put the KMD pump in! If it's the case.. I'll sell it and save some more for the APR rebuild.

[bblume]

^^^I've always thought it was the other way around....Not the file you should be worried about but your pump (or in this case replaced pump internals) and how it would handle the requested pressure.

[ataylor]

^ that is what I'm worried about.

I'm worried about installing the KMD pump internals, getting the APR HPFP file installed, and my HPFP failing and doing god-knows-what kind of damage to my engine, because the APR HPFP file was meant for the APR HPFP only.

I suppose I can't expect APR to support KMD's build quality -- but perhaps they can clear up what the risks, if any -- are.

[Arin@APR]

I would love to see a comparison on internals:

Here are photos of the APR pump.

Rebuild Parts (includes every part seen here):


Description


Brand New Pump (includes everything in the rebuild and a brand new pump):

[bblume]

^^^Hence my decision with my HPFP

[ataylor]

Here are photos of the APR pump.

Thanks, Arin -- and thanks again for your help when my car was chewing through my follower and cam and I was fighting with the dealer . Like I said above, going to APR with my pump rebuild was the plan the whole time. I bought this KMD kit yesterday because of the great deal, and because I have a new pump to work with. If I learn that my HPFP is bound to explode once fitted w. the KMD internals on APR software, I'll sell it and revert to my original plan.

Next, Could you answer one more question for us? In the effort of making this thread a resource for everyone searching HPFP upgrade-related topics:

When upgrading your HPFP -- it's best to have an extra follower on hand in case you find yours worn. Should customers have an OEM follower on hand, or one of the aftermarket thicker followers, to help defend against the pressure/flow of the upgraded hpfp? If the thicker ones are a bad idea, why is that?

TIA

[dougyfresh]

Autospeed Performance also has a high pressure fuel pump and is almost done testing their low pressure fuel pump upgrade.

[ataylor]

Autospeed Performance also has a high pressure fuel pump and is almost done testing their low pressure fuel pump upgrade.

Any info I can link to about their HPFP?

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

and.. thanks for reminding me that I need to get BACK to work on the DoWerk site ;)

[dougyfresh]

Any info I can link to about their HPFP?

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

and.. thanks for reminding me that I need to get BACK to work on the DoWerk site ;)

I do not have any links. You're best to contact Mark@ASP for information.

[Todd/AWE]

and that would make them the first-to-market on a low side fueling solution, no?

Actually, it appears that we were the first to market with a low side fueling solution. It is part of our GT kit for the B7 A4.

BTW, I am not sure how some of the other big turbo kits are making claimed power without a low side solution...

[Nobuttsechs4me]

Actually, it appears that we were the first to market with a low side fueling solution. It is part of our GT kit for the B7 A4.

BTW, I am not sure how some of the other big turbo kits are making claimed power without a low side solution...

Todd: Can you show a picture of your low side fueling solution?

[ataylor]

Interesting.. without getting too far off topic, are there plans to offer the low side product for people building their own kits, in the future?

edit: here's the R&D page for the AWE GT kit for B7's, no mention of the low side solution.. you should definitely add something!
http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/info...cfm?content=79

back on topic: Autospeed has been contacted and if they give me any info on their HPFP product, I'll add it to our round-up!

[Arin@APR]

When upgrading your HPFP -- it's best to have an extra follower on hand in case you find yours worn. Should customers have an OEM follower on hand, or one of the aftermarket thicker followers, to help defend against the pressure/flow of the upgraded hpfp? If the thicker ones are a bad idea, why is that?

It would be nice to have another OEM follower on hand but it's not necessary. Just take a look at your follower before installing the pump. If you noticed rapid wear, order a new one and replace it. With proper oil changes (5k), an oil high in zinc, no fuel in your oil, and a healthy B cam, I don't feel you'll have many issues. But it doesn't hurt to take a look at it during your oil changes or around 10k. Just remember, if you rub off oil from the surface of the follower, make sure you coat it with molly grease prior to reinstalling it in the engine.

I would never suggest any of the current aftermarket followers.

[ataylor]

Thanks!

If anyone has any input as to why the aggressive hpfp file software tuning would lead to another MFR's pump kit failing, please chime in.

I read that for my software (APR) the load on an upgraded HPFP is actually lower because the capacity of the upgraded HPFP to flow.. is higher so software doesn't have to beat on the pump as much in order to make it perform. So I thought I would be ok, now I just want to be sure before I install the KMD upgrade while running APR. Can someone confirm the above ^? I send a question to KMD so if they respond about this I'll obviously post it

[F16HTON]

Contact Eurocode Tuning...David has a few cars 2.0T FSI that are running Schricks, Ferrea Valvetrain, with both a high pressure and low pressure pump upgrade.

Motors are spinning beyond 8,500 with no issues so far...

FWIW I have been in a Eurocode/APR Stage III+ setup running 9,500 RPMs and making well over 380WHP on low boost (low to mid 20s) The acceleration is soooooo smooth, yet sooooo deceiving, nearly as fast (not as powerful) as a 675WHP twin GT S4.

Eurocode measures acceleration on a 2 mile stretch of road, datalogged, under real world load, resistance and airflow.

[Quattro]

great thread, I started one ages ago, maybe we can merge info from one thread to another.

I did a lot of research, maybe it will be good for someone.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250112

[Arin@APR]

If anyone has any input as to why the aggressive hpfp file software tuning would lead to another MFR's pump kit failing, please chime in.

This was simply 'made up' information by KMD.

[Nobuttsechs4me]

I dug up some info that Arin had posted on the vortex a while back...before he was with APR!!

link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3343720

Its GREAT reading and very informative. You can watch all the vendors have a pissing competition

[ataylor]

great thread, I started one ages ago, maybe we can merge info from one thread to another.

I did a lot of research, maybe it will be good for someone.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250112

that link is at the top of my thread :)

This was simply 'made up' information by KMD.

Great! Proceeding with install..

ninja edit: finally 2 green rep bars! hahaha

[Arin@APR]

I dug up some info that Arin had posted on the vortex a while back...before he was with APR!!

link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3343720

Its GREAT reading and very informative. You can watch all the vendors have a pissing competition

:) Yup. I went into it looking for the best. Autotech sent me a PM saying their's would be only around $300. APR said theirs would be around $1000. That's a huge difference! I needed to know why the prices were the way they were. So I did my homework and ended up with APR. Naturally everyone said APR was trying to make rumors to scare people away from the other options yet this is the first thread posted about a competitors pump. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3510787 (Bingo!)

Also if you dig around I had another post showing my results of logging after the pump was installed. Unfortunately my web host crashed and I lost all over the old linked logs. What's funny though is after I posted up that information, and information I found on Hitachi fuel pump patent's, I started getting hate mail from vwvortex members in Arkansas. Don't you just love the internet?

[Nobuttsechs4me]

ataylor...get that pump in and post up some information. Hurry up!!!