My RS4 under the knife...

[RS4POWER]

Hey Guys...

Sad to announce that despite my best efforts the carbon buildup monster beat me.

I have had my car since July 06. I have loved every minute of it. This car is really built with brilliant quality. There are two knocks on this model and as most of you know those are the DRC and the CB monster. My DRC is bone dry. Not so lucky with the CB situation.

My car threw 2 EPC lights. The first time the EPC went off when I restarted the car. The next day though it came on again but not alone, had to bring the CEL light for company. I knew this wasn't good. Some other owners had the exact same situation and their valves looked disgusting.

I also did some research and found there are two TSB's for the RS4 Vacuum.
Either way we would have to take off the manifold and see what waits underneath. The CB monster did not disappoint. Aside my efforts to change the oil every 4-5k miles and keep the car serviced and in top shape, the flawed design of this FSI engine helped him mark his territory and hid for the next chance.

Tommy from Winner Audi called me today to share the news. He said the valves were built up pretty bad. He has made several phone calls to different Audi engineers he is connected with and tomorrow we will go over all the options on how to proceed. He has been very cooperative and equally concerned. As many of you know he has the 4.2 FSI engine in his S5. I can not say enough good things about Tommy and the Winner service crew, they have treated my car like their own from day one.

Tomorrow will be the first time I have seen the car since they took the IM off today. I will take an oil sample to send for analysis. I will find out details about the CEL/EPC lights and share them with you guys. After we get everything cleaned up and make any corrections, I am switching over to RLI which has been getting good reviews from those who have already made the swap and checked under the IM.

If any of you guys have been down this path with these FSI engines any info will be appreciated.
I will tell you guys more tomorrow when I get back from the shop.


For RS4 owners that have been trying to get your dealers to take a look under the IM without any success here is the key...

TSB:
http://www.jlosee.com/images/RS4/PDF...Manifold-1.pdf

http://www.jlosee.com/images/RS4/PDF...Manifold-2.pdf

[Beelzeebub]

wow. sorry to hear. hope everything works out fine soon.

[RAudi Driver]

I'm buckled in. This is going to be a long thread. be sure to bring your camera and take some pics.

What were the codes?

[RS4POWER]

Ed- get your popcorn ready.

I don't have the codes yet, I will have them tomorrow. I will have pics tomorrow also. These guys seem anxious to get to the bottom of this as well. I hope that is the case. Along with some more testing, after its all said and done I will re-flash the ECU. This engine has felt de-tuned for way too loooong.

[PESAPC]

How do you drive the car ... easy on it or let it breathe a bit??

I will have to look to get a sense of whether you have made many / any mods ... was it flashed? Deflapped? Exhaust? How many miles on it?

Thanks and keep posting!

[Retsujou]

Mine had to be completely manually cleaned. It was all part of warranty. Because of some "history" The dealer decided to also pay for a specialised ignition system cleaning.

Audi is well aware (at least in Canada) that it is an issue with the way Fuel is refined here in Canada. They were not surprised at all and the only solution was to take the engine apart, clean the inlet valves manually, clean everything else with a special chemical bath then clean the ignition system with a special machine and then add 44K for a tank and ever since the car has been good. Was all covered under warranty.

However they did explicitly tell me that you will have to warm the engine up and force it to breathe now and then to avoid further build up. They also mentioned that some engines get cleaned and never are back, other are back after 3 months.

But to reiterate, Audi is very aware of it. Most Audi engineers should be aware of it as well and there are audi issued procedures on what to do.

[PESAPC]

Mine had to be completely manually cleaned. It was all part of warranty. Because of some "history" The dealer decided to also pay for a specialised ignition system cleaning.

Hmmm, again, how may miles on yours when the 'repair' was finally effectuated? Same question about driving style ... mellow or aggressive?

[Retsujou]

Hmmm, again, how may miles on yours when the 'repair' was finally effectuated? Same question about driving style ... mellow or aggressive?

19820 Kilometers. I drive normal and I car slalom now and then. However Audi switched from recommending Sunoco which has 10% Ethanol in it to recommending Shell V-Power which has 0% in it right in the middle of the rebuild. They do feel that a large amount of Ethanol in the fuel contributes to the issue.

However the way the inlet valves looked it would have not mattered if I had redlined the car constantly, the build-up was that bad.

[PESAPC]

wow ... hardly any miles!!! Mine has twice that mileage and running like a beast. Lucky I guess ... so far.

[crafty]

Subscribed! My RS has 42K mi, and I have brought it in 3 times for CELs (no codes like in your TSBs though, mine were all multiple misfire messages, all from multiple cylinders). I theorize that mine is due to the CB issue... one thing I DO know is that my car blows carbon out of that tail pipes like it is running rich beyond belief, I actually have spray patterns of carbon on my garage door and on the floor of the garage behind my tips, it looks like someone is throwing black baby powder everywere, if I hadn't just cleaned it up I would take a pic. I have to clean the tips every other day, if I don't they are completely black in less that a week, with about 40 mi driven a day (70/30 highway/city).

THey have a case opened but I haven't heard anything in a while, last time I had the CELs was about 2000 mi or so ago, and since then I have run a couple of bottles of Techron through it.

I drive fairly agressively normally, but I RARELY go over 6-7K RPM, and even then only for a couple of seconds (no choice with the speed limits over here :)). I probably cruise around 3K-4K RPMs on average, and only romp on it off of a light every now and then (once a week... just because... no reason other to enjoy the car and hear that excellent motor :)).

I have no idea how the car was driven before me, but it was in damn good shape regarding appearance, so the previous owner(s) took care of it, perhaps that extended to how it was driven! The service history is pretty clean as well. It had 37K mi when I bought it.

I do have Milltek FB (valved, non-res), which probably is contributing to what comes out of my tailpipe (I guess?), but I have never had a CEL/MIL that indicates the rear O2 sensors show that the cats aren't working, or any other CEL relating to the cats or exhaust. It is possible that the ECU is flashed to avoid MILs from bad cats, but if so I don't know with what programming, I haven't seen much available for the RS :).

As I had never really driven an RS before this one, I have no idea if it is performing up to par... it certainly feels good compared to my old B6 S4 (which had a few mods of its own). I have considered getting it dyno'ed on a Mustand AWD I have access to... but when I did that with my S, I just got depressed... and it is over $100 a run... so since I am happy with the car I haven't done it yet, ignorance is bliss .

Anyway, other than the awesome threads that are referenced here (pointing to rs246 and an oil analysis website) I have no info for you, other than when I brought it to Audi, after working with AofA, they said that it wasn't approved to take it apart yet, the CELs have to be more frequent first, although they said they are working on another solution that they expect soon, but then I already knew more than that from jstahmann on this board (the walnut shell blasting, which doesn't fix the root cause, but is cheaper than the other completely manual process). Hopefully it will be a recall of sorts that doesn't take an act of Congress to get approved :).

Anyway, keep us posted, and good luck on getting this handled!!

[Hotazlava32]

My car has the same symptoms...black powder gets on my exhaust even after one drive after i clean the tips...and once my check engine light came on (at least I think it was the check engine light) and it did it as I almost stalled out while parking on a hill which I thought was wierd. Does this sound like I have carbon build up??

[RocketSurgeon]

Possibly. if the valves are gummed up enough the engine will struggle to get all the exhaust gases out, so less fresh air gets in for the next cycle and you lose power.

[crafty]

Not sure about the carbon in the exhaust problems will have to what others chip in with, especially those that bought one new to see it it does that from the start. WIth my MILs, it stayed on each time until the codes were cleared by the dealer (although I can do it with my Vagcom, I want them to have the record so that it CAN get cleaned without much hassle). Your code cleared automatically it sounds like... so not sure on that one.

Also, how many miles do you have? From what I understand, it is not a matter of IF but WHEN... these FSI motors weren't built for the crappy gas we have here in the states and in some parts of Europe, to the point where our version of the RS is tuned to not even activate the full FSI mode which really SUCKS :). Combine that with the conservative ECU tuning to compensate, and from what I understand we end up with a slightly less aggressive car. I HATE having something and not being able to run it to its full potential!

But, in this case, I am not really compaining cos even with all of that the car is still awesome :).

[crafty]

Possibly. if the valves are gummed up enough the engine will struggle to get all the exhaust gases out, so less fresh air gets in for the next cycle and you lose power.

Also from what I understand the turbulence created by the MUCH less than smooth passageways will cause over all performance problem in every cycle :(. It is unfortunate given the amount of effort that i imagine went into designing the heads ahd the intake and exhaust paths that they get fubared by the CB issues.

[GotRS?]

Some posts here are about carbon. General understanding is that Audi are conservative on mixture due to high speed euro driving and so run rich.
I've leaned out mine after misfire codes, and my sooty pipes and driveway are a little cleaner now, although not spotless at all.

It seems more are concerned about oil deposits from the reflow of crank emissions. Funny... we all thought putting that crap back in to the intake was a bad idea tens of years ago and drained it to... somewhere else

FSI is good but there are issues to sort I guess

[RS4POWER]

PESAPC-

Other than my foot up the engines ass once in a while, the car is a virgin. No mods whatsoever. When I first get the oils changed thats when I feel the car a lot more responsive and I drive it a lot more spirited.
I always let the car warm up to at least 130 oil temp or more. I make it a point to go over 7k in most of my drives even hitting the limiter once and again. After a few thousand miles on fresh oil you can hear and feel the engine being a little sluggish. Thats when I back off until I get the oils changed again.
As you know there is a trade off, do you drive spirited all the time and blow any build up out the back or do you break down the oil to the point where it does not serve its function. Thats why I change the oils as frequent as I can. BTW car has 54k miles.

Crafty- Let me make some things clear. The TSB's had nothing to do with the CEL lights I got. They are information which I came across that can be very beneficial especially in your case where the dealer refuses to take the manifold off until you get more CEL's or??? I would suggest you go to your dealer and tell them about this TSB, once they remove your manifold you will be able to see the condition of your valves.
You are right to be concerned about performance. This engine will de-tune itself with the slightest hint of a change. That is exactly what I have been feeling since 20k miles, have brought it to their attention since only to get similar stories like you. Now, even though a tad late I have finally gotten inside. I hope you have better results.

[Hotazlava32]

My car has 22k miles but I bought it with 17k...and now I'm having a Magnaflow exhaust installed.

[crafty]

PESAPC-

Other than my foot up the engines ass once in a while, the car is a virgin. No mods whatsoever. When I first get the oils changed thats when I feel the car a lot more responsive and I drive it a lot more spirited.
I always let the car warm up to at least 130 oil temp or more. I make it a point to go over 7k in most of my drives even hitting the limiter once and again. After a few thousand miles on fresh oil you can hear and feel the engine being a little sluggish. Thats when I back off until I get the oils changed again.
As you know there is a trade off, do you drive spirited all the time and blow any build up out the back or do you break down the oil to the point where it does not serve its function. Thats why I change the oils as frequent as I can. BTW car has 54k miles.

Crafty- Let me make some things clear. The TSB's had nothing to do with the CEL lights I got. They are information which I came across that can be very beneficial especially in your case where the dealer refuses to take the manifold off until you get more CEL's or??? I would suggest you go to your dealer and tell them about this TSB, once they remove your manifold you will be able to see the condition of your valves.
You are right to be concerned about performance. This engine will de-tune itself with the slightest hint of a change. That is exactly what I have been feeling since 20k miles, have brought it to their attention since only to get similar stories like you. Now, even though a tad late I have finally gotten inside. I hope you have better results.

OHHHH, cool! Well in that case, printed out and going with me on my next visit :). Thanks a lot for the post! I wonder if they will let me see what it looks like with the IM off :).

[RAudi Driver]

My car has 22k miles but I bought it with 17k...and now I'm having a Magnaflow exhaust installed.

So what! Totally off topic!

[Hotazlava32]

If you look up, Crafty had asked how many miles the car had.

[RAudi Driver]

oops, my bad. Sorry Lava.

[Hotazlava32]

It's all good...does your car have a lot of that black powder or whatever coming out the exhaust tips too?

[RAudi Driver]

Well, my tips are black to begin with but when i wash the car, nothing really comes off. There is nothing on my garage floor and I don't really drive the car unless i am taking it out on a decent drive. I know that around town driving isn't the best for the engine.

In the past, I have had the EPC light come on a few times and the CEL on once or twice on startup. I read the code (multiple misfire), cleared it and called it a day. Nothing has come back since. Going to avoid tearing into the engine for as long as possible.

[mattlqx]

So am I understanding correctly that super-frequent oil changes appear to not have helped RS4POWER at all?

In other words, don't throw your money away on changing the oil more than the recommended?

[WinterRunner]

Watching this. I'm really hoping it doesn't happen to my mom's RS4.

Your mom is a hip lady for driving an RS4.

[WinterRunner]

So am I understanding correctly that super-frequent oil changes appear to not have helped RS4POWER at all?

In other words, don't throw your money away on changing the oil more than the recommended?

That's my conclusion. I do the 4-5K intervals with Lubro Moly 5-40. Seems to be ok, at 24xxxK imiles and NO CEL's or codes thrown.

[Retsujou]

So am I understanding correctly that super-frequent oil changes appear to not have helped RS4POWER at all?

No, not for this issue but super frequent oil changes are still super good for your engine.

The only thing you can really do is:
Burn clean fuel with as little to no Ethanol or other "pollutants" in the fuel as you can. Buy and burn the highest octane fuel you can find without using a booster. use 44K every 10K to clean out the ignition system. Let the engine breathe at least once a week and go on road trips now and then on the weekend. This car needs to be driven, back and forth to work every day for years does not cut it.

[WinterRunner]

No, not for this issue but super frequent oil changes are still super good for your engine.

The only thing you can really do is:
Burn clean fuel with as little to no Ethanol or other "pollutants" in the fuel as you can. Buy and burn the highest octane fuel you can find without using a booster. use 44K every 10K to clean out the ignition system. Let the engine breathe at least once a week and go on road trips now and then on the weekend. This car needs to be driven, back and forth to work every day for years does not cut it.

What if your commute is a 35 mile highway stretch that just begs to go fast?

[duud40]

Took the manifold off the other day and replaced it with a polished and ported one. Also cleaned intake valves and cylinder head. 2+2 gum cutter works best for cleaning the gunk out. My car has 70000 km and has probably never seen a drive without hitting the rev limiter. Intake looked really foul but not to an extent that would concern, i`m pretty sure it would hamper performance though . Went at it with a toothbrush a screw-driver and some old rags. Got it finished in 2 day`s time (started working at 2 pm and stopped at 8-9 pm) so I guess some of the more mechanically inclined would finish it in a day. Car seems a lot more responsive , launches with 275/35/19 tires seem to be less prone to boging. I`m pretty sure fuel quality has nothing to do with how much gunk you find on the intake side as this is a direct injection motor. You could argue that oil dillution (with fuel) causes a lower oil volatilisation temperature , to the point that the stock oil separation circuit can`t face the debit and chokes , giving you gunk on your valves. I had a lot of oil in my manifold which tells me I can`t be far from truth. Taking the manifold off is a pain in the ass. Putting it on is an even bigger pain in the ass. Be sure to check the tumble valve sensors on the new manifold or keep the ones you have on your manifold dry because needing to remove and then put the manifold back on because of a faulty sensor that throws a mil and epc light is a pain in the ass.

[RS4POWER]

Ok guys...

Here is a little update. I just got back from the dealer. Needless to say the valves were disgusting but not as bad as some of the other RS4's that I have seen. The IM was also in bad shape. There is no way this engine was breathing anywhere near how it was supposed to. It explains why the car felt so sluggish.

The CEL had something to do with the intake manifold valve. I will get an email either today or tomorrow with the codes so I can share.

The dealer does not have the equipment to perform the walnut shell blasting and Audi Engineers are recommending manual cleaning which will require soaking in solvents and scrubbing away. Six of the cylinders were closed so they will soak first and then we will do the other two. I have pictures but have had difficult times posting pictures here so any help would be appreciated.
Along with everything else we will look down in the cylinders with the boroscope and see what's going on down there. We will also perform a leak down test. PVC valve is also going to be replaced as a precautionary measure not because it is believed to be faulty. We will then cut the old one in half and see how it looks inside. I will snap pictures of the also.

I have extracted an oil sample for analysis and I will be sending it out tomorrow. Audi Recommendations to prevent or slow the CB rate is to use the fuel additive that Audi sells. They also said that the A6 3.2 FSI has been the most common victim of carbon build up.
Other than all this there are no cures as of yet that they know of.
I will be up there again either tomorrow or the day after to inspect before the IM goes back on. I will snap pictures of that also.

[RS4POWER]

So am I understanding correctly that super-frequent oil changes appear to not have helped RS4POWER at all?

In other words, don't throw your money away on changing the oil more than the recommended?

Super frequent oil changes have not helped slower the rate of CB. However the oil changes were done more frequently because the approved oils can not handle the load the RS4 engine puts on it. It protects your engine up to 2.5-3k and then thats it. The money you spend on oil changed is the money you are saving from not replacing an expensive engine.

[RS4POWER]

No, not for this issue but super frequent oil changes are still super good for your engine.

The only thing you can really do is:
Burn clean fuel with as little to no Ethanol or other "pollutants" in the fuel as you can. Buy and burn the highest octane fuel you can find without using a booster. use 44K every 10K to clean out the ignition system. Let the engine breathe at least once a week and go on road trips now and then on the weekend. This car needs to be driven, back and forth to work every day for years does not cut it.

You bring up good points here. The only thing I would add is that if you are going to use bg44k make sure it is right before you change your oils. Therefore any contaminants that are washed down can go with the beat up oil and not be introduced in the new oil.

[duud40]

The cel was because the intake manifold tumble valve (the one that only works at low revs and is phisicaly in the manifold) is so gunked up it would not move all the way. Sensors would read this and ecu would give you limp home mode. As for solvents... I tried carburettor cleaning liquid, brake liquid, pretty much anything you can think of, the only thing that gave some results was that 2+2 gum cutter thing. I guess a cure to gunk deposits would be a catch can (or more) fitted before the oem oil separator.

[RS4POWER]

The cel was because the intake manifold tumble valve (the one that only works at low revs and is phisicaly in the manifold) is so gunked up it would not move all the way. Sensors would read this and ecu would give you limp home mode. As for solvents... I tried carburettor cleaning liquid, brake liquid, pretty much anything you can think of, the only thing that gave some results was that 2+2 gum cutter thing. I guess a cure to gunk deposits would be a catch can (or more) fitted before the oem oil separator.

Duud40- thanks for the info. I believe you are right about the CEL. The IM looked pretty hideous also as you will see in the pics. The tech told me he will be using gum gutter and carb cleaner. The IM manifold will not go back on the engine unless I can eat off the valves, I assure you!

[Retsujou]

I`m pretty sure fuel quality has nothing to do with how much gunk you find on the intake side as this is a direct injection motor.

Well Methanol combustion is different than the other parts of the fuel you put into your car. The mist that is the residue wafts up as the inlet valves open for the next squirt of fuel. That mist then settles into the top of the inlet valve and builds up the gunk. At least here in Canada Audi now recommends V power for that very reason. No Ethanol.

[RAudi Driver]

RS4, delete these two posts. All you have to do to post a pic from you site is go to the embed this image section and copy the link in the forum row, then paste it right into the body of the Audizine reply window.

[RS4Fiend]

wow this really steers me away from buying an rs4

watching this thread

[RS4POWER]

Ed, thanks for the tip. I just got back in so I will give it a shot.

[RS4POWER]

Here are some more:

[RS4POWER]

wow this really steers me away from buying an rs4

watching this thread