FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[Rajan147]

Good luck to everyone who wants to do this.. I just want to go on the record for saying this... lol


Swapping out the intercooler, it doesnt fit.. Not the only thing..

look at all that room in the engine bay

[NYCVR6]

Definitely a nice amount of room. But, before everyone pulls the trigger to jump on this bandwagon, i'll address exactly what i have dealt with thus far with this swap.. The "no brainer swap"... I'll make it simple with a list of what hasnt fit or worked out so well..

-Oil pan had to be changed to clear subframe
-Was told an R32 fuel rail will work, bought a brand new one, welded fittings, and it doesnt fit the 2.8 head. Trying to figure out another route
- One motor mount fit, the other wasnt even close, had to fabricate our own mount from scratch
- Valve cover didnt clear hood, was told to buy a toureg one which didnt clear either.. Hacked the oil filler neck off the brand new toureg valve cover, still 1.5" to close the hood.. Not sure where we're going from here with this yet.
- 034efi intake manifold flange does not fit a 2.8l head, it hits the alternator bracket.. Working on getting them to make the right one 3rd time around.
- Hood latch is no longer usable, hoop pins a must
- Radiator fans cant fit between motor and rad, need to find very thin fans to fit between intercooler and AC condenser.. Now impossible to fit a nice size FMIC.. Have to buy 3 thin electric fans..
- Must hack rad support inside to clear pulleys, and on top to clear belt tensioner and head
- 24v VR6 coil packs will hit hood with clips on, need to get custom wires and run external coil pack.
- Must make custom AC lines
- only siemans thin body style injectors fit 24v head
- bumper grills and such wont fit because everything is pushed forward now

That's all i can think of right now off the top of my head, but im gambling on more problems popping up. For those considering this, might want to make sure you have deep pockets and the car at a fully capable fabrication shop for all the cutting and welding. Big props to my friend Chris at C&M Performance for all the help, without someone like him on hand this would have been impossible.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Definitely a nice amount of room. But, before everyone pulls the trigger to jump on this bandwagon, i'll address exactly what i have dealt with thus far with this swap.. The "no brainer swap"... I'll make it simple with a list of what hasnt fit or worked out so well..

-Oil pan had to be changed to clear subframe
-Was told an R32 fuel rail will work, bought a brand new one, welded fittings, and it doesnt fit the 2.8 head. Trying to figure out another route
- One motor mount fit, the other wasnt even close, had to fabricate our own mount from scratch
- Valve cover didnt clear hood, was told to buy a toureg one which didnt clear either.. Hacked the oil filler neck off the brand new toureg valve cover, still 1.5" to close the hood.. Not sure where we're going from here with this yet.
- 034efi intake manifold flange does not fit a 2.8l head, it hits the alternator bracket.. Working on getting them to make the right one 3rd time around.
- Hood latch is no longer usable, hoop pins a must
- Radiator fans cant fit between motor and rad, need to find very thin fans to fit between intercooler and AC condenser.. Now impossible to fit a nice size FMIC.. Have to buy 3 thin electric fans..
- Must hack rad support inside to clear pulleys, and on top to clear belt tensioner and head
- 24v VR6 coil packs will hit hood with clips on, need to get custom wires and run external coil pack.
- Must make custom AC lines
- only siemans thin body style injectors fit 24v head
- bumper grills and such wont fit because everything is pushed forward now

That's all i can think of right now off the top of my head, but im gambling on more problems popping up. For those considering this, might want to make sure you have deep pockets and the car at a fully capable fabrication shop for all the cutting and welding. Big props to my friend Chris at C&M Performance for all the help, without someone like him on hand this would have been impossible.

good work justin. I was gonna cry when you sold your GT setup but it's good to know you're still in "the game." haha

[NYCVR6]

good work justin. I was gonna cry when you sold your GT setup but it's good to know you're still in "the game." haha

[andream88]

Definitely a nice amount of room. But, before everyone pulls the trigger to jump on this bandwagon, i'll address exactly what i have dealt with thus far with this swap.. The "no brainer swap"... I'll make it simple with a list of what hasnt fit or worked out so well..

-Oil pan had to be changed to clear subframe
-Was told an R32 fuel rail will work, bought a brand new one, welded fittings, and it doesnt fit the 2.8 head. Trying to figure out another route
- One motor mount fit, the other wasnt even close, had to fabricate our own mount from scratch
- Valve cover didnt clear hood, was told to buy a toureg one which didnt clear either.. Hacked the oil filler neck off the brand new toureg valve cover, still 1.5" to close the hood.. Not sure where we're going from here with this yet.
- 034efi intake manifold flange does not fit a 2.8l head, it hits the alternator bracket.. Working on getting them to make the right one 3rd time around.
- Hood latch is no longer usable, hoop pins a must
- Radiator fans cant fit between motor and rad, need to find very thin fans to fit between intercooler and AC condenser.. Now impossible to fit a nice size FMIC.. Have to buy 3 thin electric fans..
- Must hack rad support inside to clear pulleys, and on top to clear belt tensioner and head
- 24v VR6 coil packs will hit hood with clips on, need to get custom wires and run external coil pack.
- Must make custom AC lines
- only siemans thin body style injectors fit 24v head
- bumper grills and such wont fit because everything is pushed forward now

That's all i can think of right now off the top of my head, but im gambling on more problems popping up. For those considering this, might want to make sure you have deep pockets and the car at a fully capable fabrication shop for all the cutting and welding. Big props to my friend Chris at C&M Performance for all the help, without someone like him on hand this would have been impossible.

Hey NYCVR6 could you measure the space you have between the water rad and the engine pulleys, please?
I'd like to know if there's the space to install high flow electric fans in there.

Cheers,
Andrea

[NYCVR6]

Hey NYCVR6 could you measure the space you have between the water rad and the engine pulleys, please?
I'd like to know if there's the space to install high flow electric fans in there.

Cheers,
Andrea

Biggest fan you can fit in there is a 9 inch fan up to 2.5" inch thick fan. Which wont cover one half of the rad on the inside . That isnt even close to enough fan. I will be running 2 9" and one 16". You need to find 2" thick fans too, it's a nightmare.

[pipe7284]

wow....and it all seemed so "no brainer" i guess if chris green or 034 guys can chime in on e what they did to resolve the issue you are having, thats if they ran into those same issues.

[NYCVR6]

wow....and it all seemed so "no brainer" i guess if chris green or 034 guys can chime in on e what they did to resolve the issue you are having, thats if they ran into those same issues.

Chris runs no AC on that car, and his car has a 12v vr6 in it. That right there eliminates the hood issues, the coils clearing, the fan problems, fmic fitment, etc...

[andream88]

Chris runs no AC on that car, and his car has a 12v vr6 in it. That right there eliminates the hood issues, the coils clearing, the fan problems, fmic fitment, etc...

We should then ask 034 to engineer a custom set of engine mounts to run the AC on the 12v engine!
That seems to be the simplier route out there....

[viperbl]

Keep up the good work NYCVR6 :)

I am sure all the headaches will be worth it in the end :D

[will175]

With you on that one.

[GURUMAN]

my favorite intercooler...

[NYCVR6]

my favorite intercooler...

Looks nice, but doesnt fit with the ac condenser and 2 electrical fans on the condenser. Im pretty sure the vibrant stuff is just ebay crap too, but im not sure. Love the way it looks though. Using a precision intercooler in the last pic with a garrett core, definitely a more quality piece.

[Reich]

Wow I assume ther's an other 9 sec s4 coming along.
Like state above, Glad you're back with a big setup.
Nice work

[JBM]

So where is the info on the B6 swap because I'm seriously thinking about doing this swap because my motor is getting old (140K) and I don't want another 4 banger. I have all the supporting mods and would love to have a VR in my car.

[mrbogangles]

So where is the info on the B6 swap because I'm seriously thinking about doing this swap because my motor is getting old (140K) and I don't want another 4 banger. I have all the supporting mods and would love to have a VR in my car.

Originally Posted by ImageX View Post
has a swap for the b6 chassis been tried before???

Yes
not completed yet

in the works

[JBM]

in the works

That's pretty vague. I mean I would like to know if I can keep the A/C with the B6 and what blocks I can actually run with this. I'm looking at the 24V with all the necessary equipments and a 30 series.

[wdbdy2000s4]

That's pretty vague. I mean I would like to know if I can keep the A/C with the B6 and what blocks I can actually run with this. I'm looking at the 24V with all the necessary equipments and a 30 series.

if it fits in a b5 then it will fit in a b6. As you've seen, the mounting brackets will need to be altered or customized for either chassis, but the VR will easily fit in a b6 bay...making it stay there and run strong will take some work but it's not much harder then a b5 by any means. get wrenching kid.

[NYCVR6]

Just figured out how to clear the hood. This week we will pill the s4 motor mounts out and shorten them by an inch and a half and re-weld them.

[MyTunes]

I thought I read on one of these pages that the vr6 wiring is similar to the A4.
So is there then a possability of using an A4 harness and Ecu?

Would be perfect I suppose if your swapping into an a4 to

I imagine the cluster would still work over can-bus or could also be swapped with an a4.

Thoughts?

[GURUMAN]

I really dont think you will ever be able to call this bolt on ...

[Wizard-of-OD]

I really dont think you will ever be able to call this bolt on ...

At some point it will be but it depends what the user is willing to give up Dom.
You should know this better than anyone.

[NYCVR6]

I really dont think you will ever be able to call this bolt on ...

This is the truth.

[Mrsfourrings]

What is the issue about not being able to run A/C? I
was going to use a 97 A4 1.8T car I have the 12v VR6 and was wondering why people say you can't run/plum a/c-do I need a 24v compressor?
Thanks for any help you can shed on this issue for me!

[zx6r1033]

What is the issue about not being able to run A/C? I
was going to use a 97 A4 1.8T car I have the 12v VR6 and was wondering why people say you can't run/plum a/c-do I need a 24v compressor?
Thanks for any help you can shed on this issue for me!

It's already been said like 100 times in this thread... one of the A/C mounts on the 12v block needs to be used as a motor mount.

[Wizard-of-OD]

It's already been said like 100 times in this thread... one of the A/C mounts on the 12v block needs to be used as a motor mount.

Where the A/C bracket BOLTS to the Motor,those are the boses you will use to build a bracket from on the 12V block.

funny how this went from a "no brainer swap," to a lot of custom fab work...I hope that there aren't people who got in over their heads.

I am going to address this once and then leave it after this.If you are looking for big power it is still worth it do the VR6 Swap.I make it clear that this is not for everyone and if you are worried about a little cutting or trimming then go with TiAL turbo kits as this is not for you.

[wdbdy2000s4]

funny how this went from a "no brainer swap," to a lot of custom fab work...I hope that there aren't people who got in over their heads.

[zx6r1033]

funny how this went from a "no brainer swap," to a lot of custom fab work...I hope that there aren't people who got in over their heads.

Yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing. It went from appearing to be a relatively straight forward swap to looking like quite a substantial bit of work. I was all for doing the swap until I PMed Issam about it a week or two ago. Now I am probably going to just go with Tial 650s.

[NYEuroTuner]

Yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing. It went from appearing to be a relatively straight forward swap to looking like quite a substantial bit of work. I was all for doing the swap until I PMed Issam about it a week or two ago. Now I am probably going to just go with Tial 650s.

Well if you think about it, it is still a bolt on swap...If you use 034's race engine cradle, the same cradle that's used in their time attack car.

But using their race cradle wont let you use AC. etc (or am I wrong?), and using the factory engine brackets give you more flexibility..

And I know it was assumed that the 24v can use the factory engine brackets without any modding, but even now knowing it will need modding, I still dont mind. I'm sure I can bust issams chops to make me some mounts/brackets.


My only worry is the electrical, but I am working with Issam currently to erase those issues. :)

[NYCVR6]

Well if you think about it, it is still a bolt on swap...If you use 034's race engine cradle, the same cradle that's used in their time attack car.

But using their race cradle wont let you use AC. etc (or am I wrong?), and using the factory engine brackets give you more flexibility..

And I know it was assumed that the 24v can use the factory engine brackets without any modding, but even now knowing it will need modding, I still dont mind. I'm sure I can bust issams chops to make me some mounts/brackets.


My only worry is the electrical, but I am working with Issam currently to erase those issues.

The mount bracket doesnt needed to be modified, you have to make the passenger side one yourself. That is a minor problem compared to other things... Wait till you see how much of the rad support you have to hack to clear the pulleys, try fitting sufficient fans in the little space you have, modify the s4 mounts themselves the exact amount, and still have to hammer the shit out of the subframe so the starter fits.. I am dead serious when i say this swap done well is almost like building a full race car. Youll need to install hoop pins to keep the hood shut as well. The list is huge, we havent even touched some things yet.. Like making the water lines, exhaust (should be easy), ac lines, power steering lines, etc.. My car will be done next week because i have the guy coming to wire it up.. So ill post as things come together.

[NYEuroTuner]

My car will be done next week because i have the guy coming to wire it up.. So ill post as things come together.

Having you close by will def be a big advantage for me, get ready for a crap load of questions from me once your S is ready. lol

[Papa Stone]

I believe that this swap is not going to be easy and not for everyone. Also my car is not my daily driver, and I have the patience and the shop to do it.. Is a great alternative if your in my situation.

Anyway I am waiting for others to finish it and see what the modifications are so I can address them as they come. I like the uniqueness of this project

[MarksB5S4]

looks good keep up the work cant wait to see that thing move

[NYCVR6]

Got some other things accomplished yesterday.. Posting pics in a minute.. Car should be done this week and ready for wiring.

[NYCVR6]

Making intake manifold

Nice velocity stacks

Modified valve cover.. Oil filler neck removed, and a new one welded to rear. 2 fittings for breather installed.. Some paint to keep it fresh.

[onemoremile]

That is a good looking piece but it makes me wonder if you guys are aware that three ports are longer than the others in the head. Staggering the intake ports the same distance is the way to go.

Making intake manifold

Nice velocity stacks

[NYCVR6]

That is a good looking piece but it makes me wonder if you guys are aware that three ports are longer than the others in the head. Staggering the intake ports the same distance is the way to go.

Of course we're aware of the head design.. There are major space constraints with that manifold between the alternator and the hood, this is basically the only way to make one fit on this setup.. With 30+ psi being pushed in we're not too worried about that anyway.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Staggering the intake ports the same distance is the way to go.

Not on the 4V/cyl VR motors

[Matador]

Not on the 4V/cyl VR motors

Hehe, this has been a topic of debate for a LOOONG time over on the R32 vortex forum. When HPA released their CVP manifold about 1/3 of people flipped shit because they all said "NO NO NO! STAGGERED IS CORRADO VR6 ENGINEERING! UR DOING IT WRONG!" and claimed that the manifold from the factory is equal length for a reason. In addition they also said there is built in cam compensation for the unequal nature of the intake path. Ironically, nobody ever says the same negative comments about the HGP turbo manifold which (if you look closely ) has staggered runners as well.

However, none of the nay-sayers have been able to show documented proof of their claims that switching from equal to unequal length runners decreases power or affects engine performance negatively. I'm not saying yay or nay either way, but could anyone here give any actual technical argument for either camp? Dyno plots, air flow measurements, notes from VW/Audi engineering?

[Wizard-of-OD]

Hehe, this has been a topic of debate for a LOOONG time over on the R32 vortex forum. When HPA released their CVP manifold about 1/3 of people flipped shit because they all said "NO NO NO! STAGGERED IS CORRADO VR6 ENGINEERING! UR DOING IT WRONG!" and claimed that the manifold from the factory is equal length for a reason. In addition they also said there is built in cam compensation for the unequal nature of the intake path. Ironically, nobody ever says the same negative comments about the HGP turbo manifold which (if you look closely ) has staggered runners as well.

However, none of the nay-sayers have been able to show documented proof of their claims that switching from equal to unequal length runners decreases power or affects engine performance negatively. I'm not saying yay or nay either way, but could anyone here give any actual technical argument for either camp? Dyno plots, air flow measurements, notes from VW/Audi engineering?

Look @ the dyno plots of the HGP/HPA manifold.
Scott Murray posted up a heart breaking technical discussion followed by Fredrick Stahl.If no one knows who Fred is,he makes more hp/l from a VR motor than anyone I can think of.

Rothe Motorsport makes the only equal length runner manifold for the R32 and it is the only cast manifold that has shown gains right across the power band.