Difference between the 2.7t, 2.8 and 3.0 blocks

[absolutegtr]

(x-post from the B6 forum)

I realize that the 3.0 V6 block is from the B6 A4, but compared to the 2.8 and the 2.7t block what is the actual difference?

Most importantly are there any differences between the 2.8 block and 2.7t block. It seems like the B5S4 guys like to use the 2.8 heads and cams when building there S4's. Therefore I am assuming the 2.7 exhaust manifolds are a direct bolt-up to the 2.8 heads.

I understand that the 2.7 has a lower CR than the 2.8 and 3.0, but I am looking for a "PHYSICAL" difference.

Any one have ANY info on these three blocks?

[panix73]

The difference between the A4 2.8L block and S4 2.7 block are the pistons. The 2.8l block utilizes 82.5mm pistons in 10.3:1 compression ratio, while the S4 2.7t block utilizes 81.0mm pistons in 9.3:1 compression ratio. Other than the pistons and bore being different, both blocks are virtually identical. You may even find a few oil and coolant plugs on the 2.8l block which are intended for use only on the turbocharged 2.7t version, proving that they are coming from the same mold.

In regards to your questions comparing the A4 3.0L block compared to the 2.8l and 2.7t blocks, they are also similar in certain internal aspects, although the blocks are physically different, so one could not use 2.8l or 2.7l cylinder heads on a 3.0l block, although it is possible to turbocharge a 3.0l motor but again would require internal work to be able to withstand serious power. With all of that being said, the one most interestingly fact is that longer stroke 3.0l crankshaft is a direct drop-in to your 2.8l or 2.7l motor, although to officially call the motor a 3.0 LITER, you will require an 82.5mm bore and accompanying pistons.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to PM me.

-Vin

[absolutegtr]

panix, thanks alot for that info. I've got to run now, but expect a PM from me shortly.

+1 to you

[michael66899]

Also 2.8 blocks have 2-bolt mains, while the 2.7 blocks have 4-bolt.

[absolutegtr]

Also 2.8 blocks have 2-bolt mains, while the 2.7 blocks have 4-bolt.

Right. Someone had mentioned that in the B6 forum. I guess its safe the say the 2.8 was not designed for any serious boost.

Any information on the 3.0 engine?

[michael66899]

Right. Someone had mentioned that in the B6 forum. I guess its safe the say the 2.8 was not designed for any serious boost.

Any information on the 3.0 engine?

I really don't know anything about the 3.0 other than the fact that the crank will work in the 2.7 blocks, I can only imagine that its a fairly different cast and you would run into a handful of issues if trying to run it. I wouldn't be surprised if it had 2-bolt mains and who knows if it uses the oil squirters like the 2.7 block. Basically the 2.7 block is the shit, its tried and proven and at this point I would think it would be more of a hassle to try to make a 3.0 block work, and there's really no point at all in trying to make a 2.8 block work.

[Das General]

GET SHOOK!

[michael66899]

^^Finish your car, I really need some more inspirition to buy an S...as long as its a Casa.

[Shomegrown]

I can't believe this thread came this far and no one pointed out the 3.0 block is ALUMINUM. It's not designed for boost applications. Forget it.

[JDM EJ1 95]

I can't believe this thread came this far and no one pointed out the 3.0 block is ALUMINUM. It's not designed for boost applications. Forget it.

being that the block is made out of aluminum doesnt mean that it cant handle power.

thats just a stupid statement. some of the best high hp motors are aluminum.

example... LSx motors can handle quite a bit of power boosted or not.

[audimeister]

I can't believe this thread came this far and no one pointed out the 3.0 block is ALUMINUM. It's not designed for boost applications. Forget it.

Er, I had a 944 turbo with an aluminum block that went pretty well...

[Shomegrown]

being that the block is made out of aluminum doesnt mean that it cant handle power.

thats just a stupid statement. some of the best high hp motors are aluminum.

example... LSx motors can handle quite a bit of power boosted or not.

I didn't say that, did I?

The LSX is actually a cast iron block.

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...6454&engCat=ls

If you were talking about the aluminum LS1,2,3,6 etc, that's a totally different ballgame. Those are aluminum blocks with cast in iron sleeves. An LS1 can't handle more than 600 hp reliably on the stock block, and that's spread out over 5.7 liters of displacement. Any more and you end up sleeving the block which is not an option on the Audi engine.

Guess what the bore to bore spacing on the 3.0 is versus any of the LS engines? It's a whole lot smaller, but you probably didn't think about that.

GM uses cast iron sleeves and Audi doesn't. You probably didn't think of that either.

A rather well known Audi tuner has tried to build a boosted 3.0 block and it was a huge failure, but I bet that didn't cross your mind either.

Even comparing a large displacement V8 to a small displacement V6 is what I would call a stupid statement. The construction is totally different and the loading is obviously different.

Er, I had a 944 turbo with an aluminum block that went pretty well...

And that relates to the Audi block how????

You can design an aluminum engine for a boosted application, that's what Porsche did. However when you take an aluminum block that wasn't designed for boost, that's just asking for problems.

[michael66899]

I didn't say that, did I?

The LSX is actually a cast iron block.

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...6454&engCat=ls

If you were talking about the aluminum LS1,2,3,6 etc, that's a totally different ballgame. Those are aluminum blocks with cast in iron sleeves. An LS1 can't handle more than 600 hp reliably on the stock block, and that's spread out over 5.7 liters of displacement. Any more and you end up sleeving the block which is not an option on the Audi engine.

Guess what the bore to bore spacing on the 3.0 is versus any of the LS engines? It's a whole lot smaller, but you probably didn't think about that.

GM uses cast iron sleeves and Audi doesn't. You probably didn't think of that either.

A rather well known Audi tuner has tried to build a boosted 3.0 block and it was a huge failure, but I bet that didn't cross your mind either.

Even comparing a large displacement V8 to a small displacement V6 is what I would call a stupid statement. The construction is totally different and the loading is obviously different.




And that relates to the Audi block how????

You can design an aluminum engine for a boosted application, that's what Porsche did. However when you take an aluminum block that wasn't designed for boost, that's just asking for problems.

Agree 100% I have no doubt in my mind the 3.0 would result in a quick disaster. Like you said, no sleeves, thin cylinder walls and the huge fact that Audi did not build that motor for boost, and it never should be and I'm sure thats a major reason why its aluminum.

[audimeister]

I didn't say that, did I?

The LSX is actually a cast iron block.

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...6454&engCat=ls

If you were talking about the aluminum LS1,2,3,6 etc, that's a totally different ballgame. Those are aluminum blocks with cast in iron sleeves. An LS1 can't handle more than 600 hp reliably on the stock block, and that's spread out over 5.7 liters of displacement. Any more and you end up sleeving the block which is not an option on the Audi engine.

Guess what the bore to bore spacing on the 3.0 is versus any of the LS engines? It's a whole lot smaller, but you probably didn't think about that.

GM uses cast iron sleeves and Audi doesn't. You probably didn't think of that either.

A rather well known Audi tuner has tried to build a boosted 3.0 block and it was a huge failure, but I bet that didn't cross your mind either.

Even comparing a large displacement V8 to a small displacement V6 is what I would call a stupid statement. The construction is totally different and the loading is obviously different.




And that relates to the Audi block how????

You can design an aluminum engine for a boosted application, that's what Porsche did. However when you take an aluminum block that wasn't designed for boost, that's just asking for problems.

I don't disagree with your last statement. Your first one just said that aluminum blocks can't handle boost.

However, the 965 block came directly from the 944 (originally half of a 928 V8) with very little modification. It relates to the audi application in that it is an un-sleeved aluminum design which utilizes Nikasil plating. Here in the states people were building 700hp+ (968 heads, big turbos, stand alone management) versions with the same basic block as the 250hp stocker.

So, my point is that some aluminum blocks can operate WAY outside their original design parameters.

No need to get cranky.

[Shomegrown]

I don't disagree with your last statement. Your first one just said that aluminum blocks can't handle boost.

However, the 965 block came directly from the 944 (originally half of a 928 V8) with very little modification. It relates to the audi application in that it is an un-sleeved aluminum design which utilizes Nikasil plating. Here in the states people were building 700hp+ (968 heads, big turbos, stand alone management) versions with the same basic block as the 250hp stocker.

So, my point is that some aluminum blocks can operate WAY outside their original design parameters.

No need to get cranky.

No, I never said aluminum blocks can't handle boost. I said THIS block can't handle boost and I could give you a dozen reasons why.

Audi doesn't use Nikasil, they use Alusil.

The Porsche design also has higher bore spacing than Audi's 90 mm. There's more meat in it.

You guys can argue all you want. Go ahead and try, just don't be surprised when it doesn't work.

IMO there's not a non-boosted aluminum block on the market that will happily tolerate more than twice it's design horsepower. The 3.0 is no exception.

[michael66899]

I can't believe this thread came this far and no one pointed out the 3.0 block is ALUMINUM. It's not designed for boost applications. Forget it.

Hmm interesting, I told you I knew nothing about that motor. Obviously its going to be weaker because its aluminum, but it would be interesting to know how much weaker, as an aluminum block could save a lot of weight. Dart builds aluminum blocks that can take more power than anyone on here has ever made, but something tells me there's no way Audi engineered that block to withstand some serious power. So now whos gonna be a our test dummy and blow one of these up?

[Shomegrown]

Hmm interesting, I told you I knew nothing about that motor. Obviously its going to be weaker because its aluminum, but it would be interesting to know how much weaker, as an aluminum block could save a lot of weight. Dart builds aluminum blocks that can take more power than anyone on here has ever made, but something tells me there's no way Audi engineered that block to withstand some serious power. So now whos gonna be a our test dummy and blow one of these up?

The construction of the Dart aluminum blocks is the same as the LS aluminum blocks...meaning an aluminum block with a cast iron or even high strength steel sleeve.

The bore to bore spacing is 111.8 mm meaning there is a lot of material between the bores for a sleeve. More material also means more strength. Audi uses only 90 mm between bores which means there's no room for a sleeve and there's not much material to withstand high cylinder pressures.

Supposedly the 3.0L block has already been tried and it failed miserably. That's all I can tell you.

If you want a STRONG aluminum block, wait for the B8 S4 3.0 TFSI to be out for a while. This block is much stronger. The whole engine is stronger as it shares many internals with the V10 TT RS6 engine.

[sean1.8t]

all this talk from people just speculating. show me one picture of a blown 3.0l motor due to "too high cyllinder preasures".. and because it only have 2 bolt mains. blah blah blah

the 1.8t has 2 bolt mains(granted one less main that the V6 has) and it's held close to 1000bhp..

plus a lot of motors weren't built for boost. but they can still handle it. the R32's VR6 has held 700+whp stock.

[Shomegrown]

plus a lot of motors weren't built for boost. but they can still handle it. the R32's VR6 has held 700+whp stock.

And what material is used in the VR6 block?

[wdbdy2000s4]

you guys all chose the wrong person to argue with
...you will be p0ned

[GunSupplier]

you guys all chose the wrong person to argue with
...you will be p0ned

I agree x1000.

Shomegrown = not the man to try and debate engine specifics with.

[Shomegrown]

I agree x1000.

Shomegrown = not the man to try and debate engine specifics with.

That's not to say it's not possible. If someone wants to be brave, and has money to burn, by all means give it a go. I'm just advising against it.

I happen to know from other well respected people that it's been tried and it didn't fare too well. If that person wants to elaborate more, he will.

I can also give a number of reasons engineering wise why it's a poor idea.

The risk just isn't worth it. The weight savings wouldn't be very much, maybe 30-40 lbs. Food for thought, the BMW 3.0TT and Audi 3.0T engines are both aluminum block and weigh only about 13 kg less.

If you find a specialty shop who is willing to try sleeving it (Underground Racing and Heffner might be able to point you in the right direction, they've done it to Lambo engines for $$$$), you will eliminate any weight advantage you'd have and the overall package would still be weaker than a stock 2.7T iron block.

Our blocks are near bombproof. The base design originates from a diesel block designed to withstand 50% higher cylinder pressures than even the highest tuned Stage III+ cars. My crazy Pollak friends have never had a block issue and they're pushing 1000+ hp.

Bottom line, I don't see the reward vs risk.

[absolutegtr]

Enough said, lol. Shomegrown thanks for the insight. I was curious to see if there where other options out there rather than the 2.7

But it is clear that there really isnt any viable ones.

[diabolical1]

do the 2.8s carry oil squirters too?

[JaredVL]

Look guys, Mahle/Cosworth tried it out, it failed at levels below 12 psi. end of story

[Shomegrown]

Look guys, Mahle/Cosworth tried it out, it failed at levels below 12 psi. end of story

No wai!

[udcc11]

Old thread bump here but is the new 3.0T in the S4 different than the N/A 3.0? If it is different, what are the differences?

[The_Auto_Tech]

Old thread bump here but is the new 3.0T in the S4 different than the N/A 3.0? If it is different, what are the differences?

Completely different animal.

[quattroloco]

way to bring it back from the dead...

I cant say anything about the new 3.0T

but I did dissasemble a 3.0 a day ago... it has 4 bolt mains... how much that matters... i dont know
but just from what ive experienced is one guy says it cant be used and then it snowballs into everyone says it cant be used.
untill someone uses it. kinda like my TIP rearend behind my B5 01E...

[udcc11]

but I did dissasemble a 3.0 a day ago... it has 4 bolt mains... how much that matters... i dont know
but just from what ive experienced is one guy says it cant be used and then it snowballs into everyone says it cant be used.
untill someone uses it. kinda like my TIP rearend behind my B5 01E...

That is interesting.