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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings RAudi Driver's Avatar
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    RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

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    Ok, so by now I'm sure that use Rs4 owners all know about the problem that can occur with the FSI engines. Yea, that's right, we get buildup around the intake chambers and the back of the valves.



    For those who don't know about it:

    The RS4 is hard on oil and suffers from fuel dilution (gas getting in the oil). The vapors from this new concoction are passed through the PCV and back into the intake manifold where they pass through the valves. This mixture of oil vapors and gas vapors lowers the flashpoint of the oil and it burns on reentry into the motor right onto to the back of the valves.

    How is this cured? Well, RI A6, previously RI RS4 developed a new oil with the help of Terry Dyson and Renewable Lubricants, Inc. It's called Biosyn 5/40 and is supposed to be able to handle all that the RS4 motor has to throw at it.

    I like the idea but would still like to stay with an Ester based oil. So I went and discovered that the recommended oil for the RS4 is not a 502.00 but it's a 503.01 (longer service interval oil). So I went about looking at the differences between the types trying to find the best oil for my motor, short of the Biosyn, which I am not opposed to using, but just want to exhaust all options before I make the move.

    In doing some internet research, I came across this from a Wiki page:

    Motul discontinued their 8100 E-tech 0W-40 (VW 503.01) Synthetic Ester oil which was a favourite anmongst the TT community and have replaced it with 8100 X-lite 0W-30 Synthetic Ester oil (VW 503.01). I had my doubts at first because of the lower viscosity at 100 deg C.; 30 instead of 40. This would suggest increased engine wear at elevated temperature but to be fair the Audi recommendation was for a 0W-30 Castrol product originally - but was I protecting my chipped engine more with a 40 rather than a 30? At least 0W for both oils has the same cold start performance.

    So why did Motul do this? I rang Opie oils to find out and spoke to Guy.
    Guy explained that the X-lite 0W-30 is a more stable oil. The 0W-40 had a higher addition of "viscosity index improvers", in order to achieve the multigrade performance. These addatives are long chain molecules which are coiled up at low temperatures but open out into long chains at high temperatures, in order to increase the viscosity - so it doesn't thin out so much when hot. The problem is that these long chains shear, under mechanical stress, so that before 10k miles is up, a 0W-40 may have decreased to 0W-30 anyway. The X-lite 0W-30, on the other hand, will still likely be close to a 0W-30 in the same mileage, as the amount of viscosity index improvers used is far less. Synthetic oils require far less viscosity improvers to achieve the same multigrade performance than organic oils. In fact the synthetic base stock oil is around 0W-20 and that's the grade that tends to be used in F1 racing. Higher engine speeds require lower viscosity. So it's swings and roundabouts to some extent: Higher engine speeds require lower viscosity but increased loads reqire higher viscosity.
    Apparently Motul have improved other aspects of the oil and required to reduce the viscosity improvers in the process. It's still VW 503.01 spec approved and is recommended for the TT specifically.

    I have put in a request for an oil recommendation from Opie Oil UK. I also discovered that if you go to Motuls, Liquimoly's and a few other European websites, they all recommend the 503.01 5/30 oil for the RS4.

    Based on what I have learned, I think that I am going to switch out my oil to Motul 8100 X-Lite 0/30 weight.

    BTW, any S4 owners reading this should look into a 503.00 oil.

    Please chime in with your opinions, questions, criticisms and whatever else you may have to say about this issue.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Not sure if you caught my thread: http://audizine.com/forum/showthread...&highlight=RS4 but I am dealing with this issue right now (potentially, cannot know for sure until pulling the intake). I haven't even gotten so far as to get approved for the cleaning from Audi yet, but assuming I do, I know that it is only a temporary solution... which really bothers me!

    I am indeed very interested in fixing the real issue, which seems to be possible a few ways... by eliminating pcv, but that messes with the balance and emissions. Create a more effective system for extracting the oil from the recirc, but that will take some intense engineering given the system already in place is pretty sophisticated but obviously does not work.

    This mixture of oil vapors and gas vapors lowers the flash point of the oil and it burns on reentry into the motor right onto to the back of the valves.
    I suppose that leaves the oil itself... and one thing that you mention is that the problem is caused by the lowered flash point of the oil causing it to burn in the valve chambers and leave deposits on the valves and other surfaces. I don't see anything in the new oil that you are talking about that avoids this issue, does it resist the lower flash point by virtue of maintaining its viscosity, which ends up matching a broken down 40W anyway? I didn't think those two properties were directly related. But perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, because I understood that the oil was depositing on the valves and building up over time vs. being burned and leaving a residue. That would mean that there is combustion going on above the valves, and that may be the case but that is a scary thought!! IF so, that would be leaving a combination of carbon deposits from the combusting fuel and who knows what from the oil that doesn't burn... which is what the pic looks like... so I really don't know.

    I read through all of the threads on rs246 and the oil website, but must admit that a lot of it went over my head the first time so I need to read it again after studying that 4.2 FSI PDF I linked which may help .

    Anyway, I do believe that the oil can indeed at least drastically improve the amount of time it takes for this to occur... but my main concern is to maintain my warranty I need to use Audi approved oils. Since this is 503.1, it should be good, but I will check with my dealer. I will ask if I can provide the oil for them to use instead of the crap they pump in when doing the changes (to avoid any warranty issues) in order to try to deal with this problem and see what happens!! Of course this will only be useful once it has been cleaned, right now I don't want to rock the boat until they fix my issue!!
    Last edited by crafty; 04-26-2009 at 08:41 AM.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings RAudi Driver's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Keep me posted on what happens. There is some Castrol that is supposed to be really good and it's called Castrol edge. Check it out.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    I'm wondering whether or not the development of valve deposit issues has anything to do with how the car was treated during break-in. An aggressive break-in with proper high revving and engine braking allows better sealing of the piston rings. This in turn leads to less fuel dilution as well as less oil burning. Could be that this may lead to less of a problem with deposits. I am just speculating, of course. Alternatively, one could replace the stock oil catchment device at some specified interval. The best bet, however, is an additional oil catchment device. This will keep the connections in tact for emissions purposes.
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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings PESAPC's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Quote Originally Posted by VVG View Post
    I'm wondering whether or not the development of valve deposit issues has anything to do with how the car was treated during break-in. An aggressive break-in with proper high revving and engine braking allows better sealing of the piston rings. This in turn leads to less fuel dilution as well as less oil burning. Could be that this may lead to less of a problem with deposits. I am just speculating, of course. Alternatively, one could replace the stock oil catchment device at some specified interval. The best bet, however, is an additional oil catchment device. This will keep the connections in tact for emissions purposes.
    Exactly ... the added oil catchment device is what I installed on my worked MINI which has helped a great deal ... however, does one yet exist for the AUDI?? I wonder if JHM has any application?

    BTW, I tend to agree with your comments or want to believe that you are right about the break-in which is the way I am with all cars, the RS4 included.
    ------ ------
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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings jdmnomore's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAudi Driver View Post
    BTW, any S4 owners reading this should look into a 503.00 oil.

    Please chime in with your opinions, questions, criticisms and whatever else you may have to say about this issue.

    Will do, and very good write up.

  7. #7
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Guys,

    I have been looking for an RS4 and stumbled into this thread.

    Is there a possible solution of using an oil catch can. I run one in my Trailblazer SS, and my 08 Corvette. Just to keep the intake clean. Although I bought a bolt in ready to go set for the GMs, I cant imagine why this would not work to solve your issue.

    Mike

  8. #8
    Account Terminated Four Rings
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    rice on quattroworld posted a potential solution to this buildup, nobody really paid any attention to him though...seems people like to bitch more than do ;)

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings RAudi Driver's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Quote Originally Posted by VVG View Post
    I'm wondering whether or not the development of valve deposit issues has anything to do with how the car was treated during break-in. An aggressive break-in with proper high revving and engine braking allows better sealing of the piston rings. This in turn leads to less fuel dilution as well as less oil burning. Could be that this may lead to less of a problem with deposits. I am just speculating, of course. Alternatively, one could replace the stock oil catchment device at some specified interval. The best bet, however, is an additional oil catchment device. This will keep the connections in tact for emissions purposes.
    I agree and did a nice break-in on my car as well. I haven't had any issues with the car running rough on cold starts (symptoms of the dirty intake) and my car doesn't burn any oil. However, since so many others are having this problem, it's my thought that it's only a matter of time before it happens to me.

    Proper break-in will delay the onset of the build-up, but I don't think that it will eliminate it entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngng View Post
    rice on quattroworld posted a potential solution to this buildup, nobody really paid any attention to him though...seems people like to bitch more than do ;)
    Post up the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by svoshop View Post
    Guys,

    I have been looking for an RS4 and stumbled into this thread.

    Is there a possible solution of using an oil catch can. I run one in my Trailblazer SS, and my 08 Corvette. Just to keep the intake clean. Although I bought a bolt in ready to go set for the GMs, I cant imagine why this would not work to solve your issue.

    Mike
    Mike, I run an oil catch on my Maxima and it works great. The RS4 comes with a pretty sophisticated cyclonic oil separator. Maybe it could use another one after the stock one. I was in the process of doing one but got a little busy.



    Keep this thread alive.
    Last edited by RAudi Driver; 04-26-2009 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Account Terminated Four Rings
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    leme see if i can find it for you ed

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Three Rings jerrym's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    Hrm.. good write-up ed..
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Three Rings Grenade's Avatar
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    Re: RS4 Owners Step in. What I feel to be very important. It's a long read.

    vegetable oil is the answer..
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