Need help, RS4 in shop for MILs, how does valve cleaning get authorized?

[crafty]

Hi All,
Background:

My RS4 is currently at the dealer for them to investigate the second occurrence of a multiple misfire MIL(possibly at least the third from before I owned it). I have read the following thread (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270388, and all of the linked and similar threads) that I could find about the FSI oil deposits in heads / on valves issue, which indicated that when it is getting bad you will get misfire MILs (although I am not sure at what frequency, variable I guess). I have posted my vag output for the two that I have recorded below. I bought the RS4 with almost 38K mi, so whatever is wrong has been wrong since I bought it (these codes were in the ECU when I picked it up, I scanned it before I actually bought it). I do not know if it has been having this issue longer... the service history does not show any specific MIL codes reported, but then the history is very high level / sparse. The only related thing I see is that they replaced the fuel pressure sensor as part of the CPO as per TSB. I do not know if there were issues (like MIL misfires) that caused them to perform the work in this TSB, or they did it because of a recall as my service writer said is possible.

Questions:

Does anyone know if there is a TSB attached to a recall including replacing the fuel pressure sensor for the RS4?

What exactly triggers a misfire MIL? I am used to ignition/fuel system problems causing misfires, but cannot think through how deposits on valves can cause misfires, especially since the injectors are in the cylinders (hence very small possibility for injector blockage).

Are there any other relatively non-invasive ways to figure out if the valve build-up is the cause of the MIL? I guess I am trying to figure out how to determine if this is truly the cause of the MIL or if there is a way I can rule it out (the absence of another code for example that would normally accompany the misfires).

Is there a non invasive way that I can get a peek at a valve, or is removing the intake the only way? I was thinking that with a flexible lighted boroscope you could remove a plug, go through the cylinder, up through an open valve to see… but I don’t know if a scope that can do that is even available… I am thinking Mission Impossible kind of stuff I guess… does something like that exist that I could perhaps rent from somewhere?

Also, does anyone know if there is a TSB published to address the valve buildup i.e. an approved Audi service to clean the heads/valves to be performed when multiple misfire MILs have been received multiple times for a customer? My service writer called to say that they think that the buildup is the issue(talking to some Audi tech line), but there is no TSB or similar approved process published for them to be able to clean the valves… so basically it sounds like I have to just ignore the MILs??

Has anyone else stateside had their RS4 4.2 cleaned by the dealer, or any other FSI motor for that matter? If so, what was the tipping point / problem that caused Audi to approve the fix being performed? My thing is that I see that a lot depends on the dealer AofA rep I guess, I read that some have no problems getting DRC replaced when it is leaking, some have to fight tooth and nail and get rejected, I really don't get it. I haven't had a case like this yet so I don't know how my dealer / AofA rep are going to be.

Other than diminished performance, what eventual more serious issues can be caused by this buildup? I am thinking of accelerated wear of the components perhaps due to the weights being imbalanced, god knows what may happen if big chunks of the buildup break off and end up bouncing around in the head or cylinder, are these deposits like rocks in consistency to where they could cause damage if moving about freely (thinking similar to a pulmonary embolism caused by DVT, except the damage by the “emboli” is caused by scoring/mechanical damage instead of blockage/tissue starvation).

My vags(abbreviated for length):

37959 mi:

Friday,27,February,2009,10:18:44:09459
VCDS Version: Release 805.3
Data version: 20090213

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6/B7
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65 67
69 75 76 77

VIN: WUARU78E57N900252 Mileage: 61090km/37959miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 079-910-560-BNS1.lbl
Part No SW: 8E1 910 560 A HW: 8E1 907 560
Component: 4.2L V8/4V FSI ª0060
Revision: --H09--- Serial number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Coding: 01040009180F0160
Shop #: WSC 02301 444 54128

1 Fault Found:
006435 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 - Implausible Signal
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01101000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 61093 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Load: 0.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 73.0°C
Temperature: 34.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 11.811 V

Readiness: 0010 0100
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 11: Engine II Labels: 079-910-560-BNS2.lbl
Part No SW: 8E1 910 560 A HW: 8E1 907 560
Component: 4.2L V8/4V FSI ª0060
Revision: --H09--- Serial number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Coding: 01040009180F0160
Shop #: WSC 02301 444 54128

2 Faults Found:
000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 61082 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 780 /min
Load: 23.9 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 42.0°C
Temperature: 18.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V

000773 - Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected
P0305 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 61082 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 780 /min
Load: 23.9 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 42.0°C
Temperature: 18.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.716 V
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 39,562mi:

Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6/B7
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65 67
69 75 76 77

VIN: WUARU78E57N900252 Mileage: 63670km/39562miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 079-910-560-BNS1.lbl
Part No SW: 8E1 910 560 A HW: 8E1 907 560
Component: 4.2L V8/4V FSI ª0060
Revision: --H09--- Serial number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Coding: 01040009180F0160
Shop #: WSC 02301 444 54128

1 Fault Found:
006435 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 - Implausible Signal
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01101000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 63674 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Load: 0.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 97.0°C
Temperature: 46.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 11.684 V

Readiness: 0000 0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 079-910-560-BNS2.lbl
Part No SW: 8E1 910 560 A HW: 8E1 907 560
Component: 4.2L V8/4V FSI ª0060
Revision: --H09--- Serial number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Coding: 01040009180F0160
Shop #: WSC 02301 444 54128

4 Faults Found:
000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 63313 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 783 /min
Load: 20.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 75.0°C
Temperature: 43.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 980.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.589 V

000773 - Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected
P0305 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 63313 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 783 /min
Load: 20.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 75.0°C
Temperature: 43.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 980.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.589 V

000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 63313 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 769 /min
Load: 20.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 75.0°C
Temperature: 43.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 980.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.589 V

000772 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected
P0304 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 63606 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 812 /min
Load: 26.3 %
Speed: 11.0 km/h
Temperature: 34.0°C
Temperature: 17.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.843 V

[Sharkfin]

subscribed, interested to see what happens with this. gl

[szinkuti]

There is a TSB/recall for the low fuel pressure sensor on all FSI engines. Audi is putting something together right now for the deposits on the back of the valves, because with FSI there is no fuel to wash down the back of the valves. If your car is under warranty and you are having issues then take it to the dealer for the misfires. I have not seen any RS4s to come in for the valve cleaning job...(have heard of them), but I have seen a couple of A3s. This can cause misfires as well as coil,fuel injector,intake leak etc. etc.....The only way to check is to remove the intake manifold and see. Hope this helps

[audi021]

I was having this same problem. The tech told me to keep driving until it happens again and if it does they will need to replace the coil?

Thoughts?

[szinkuti]

Could possibly be the coil. Have the tech swap coils first, then drive and see what happens. With the gunked up valves the misfires are so random. Same cylinder just at different times, mostly when its cold.

I was having this same problem. The tech told me to keep driving until it happens again and if it does they will need to replace the coil?

Thoughts?

[crafty]

Could possibly be the coil. Have the tech swap coils first, then drive and see what happens. With the gunked up valves the misfires are so random. Same cylinder just at different times, mostly when its cold.

My MILs for misfires have both occurred when it was cold... basicaly right after starting up... the light for MIL goes out from self test... them comes right back on, and stays on (i.e. does not go off even for a moment on subsequent restarts).

[szinkuti]

My MILs for misfires have both occurred when it was cold... basicaly right after starting up... the light for MIL goes out from self test... them comes right back on, and stays on (i.e. does not go off even for a moment on subsequent restarts).

Good chance the back of the valves are covered in deposits. The dealership should start with swapping plugs...then swapping coils...the swapping fuel
injectors....if the misfires do not change cylinders then there you go.

[crafty]

Just got a call back, they aren't going to do any of that other stuff (plugs, coilpacks, injectors), instead they have a case open with Audi (AofA I guess) that I am having the issue that looks to be caused by the buildup issue, and they expect a response back from Audi from within the next couple of days to months authorizing cleaning the intake along with the prescribed method of doing it.

I guess I will just keep bringing it back when I get MILs to have everything documented.

Once it does get cleaned (if it does) I will hopefully be prepared to implement some type of real DIY solution (like plugging off the EGR, PCV, venting to atmosphere or a catchcan of some sort, whatever), I really don't know what yet given in all of my reading i haven't read that anyone has come up with a good solution yet, hopefully if I cannot find someone else that has figured it out I can work on it a bit. THe only thing that sucks is that it is quite difficult to measure the effectiveness of the fix for anything other than eliminating any recirc carrying oil vapor back into the head (which will obviously work, just have to deal with the side affects of doing that).

[MontyRS]

Please keep us posted on this...and good luck!

[szinkuti]

yeah like i said Audi has something in the works for this issue.....

[crafty]

yeah like i said Audi has something in the works for this issue.....

The only thing I have heard of Audi addressing so far is a TSB on cleaning the intake with a walnut shell blasting or similar. I have heard nothing about them addressing the root cause. Have you heard anything about that?

[V8weight]

Have you tried the Audi fuel additive that Raudi has been running in his RS4? It may not do much to break down the carbon if you already have large deposits, but it's worth a try. I'm sorry to say that, your car being from up here in MN might have something to do with your problem. Top Tier gas is very hard to come by up here, so you never know what the previous owner was running, especially being the stand up kind of guy that he was There is a fiberoptic scope that allows you to go into your spark plug holes or vacuum ports and inspect those areas with an led screen. Our Matco tool guy has borrowed it to me a few times, but I believe it was over $300 so I would imagine most techs including myself don't own one.

[crafty]

Have you tried the Audi fuel additive that Raudi has been running in his RS4? It may not do much to break down the carbon if you already have large deposits, but it's worth a try. I'm sorry to say that, your car being from up here in MN might have something to do with your problem. Top Tier gas is very hard to come by up here, so you never know what the previous owner was running, especially being the stand up kind of guy that he was There is a fiberoptic scope that allows you to go into your spark plug holes or vacuum ports and inspect those areas with an led screen. Our Matco tool guy has borrowed it to me a few times, but I believe it was over $300 so I would imagine most techs including myself don't own one.

Yep, I was planning on purchasing a bunch of that additive from genuineaudipart.com and getting on a routine of using it ever coupla thousand miles... will see what happens, don't think it could hurt!

$300?!?! To BUY it? Wow man, I remember spending more than that on impacts from the Snap-on guy... hell when I was a tech my toolbox was worth quite a bit more than my car, and I am not including the crap in it... JUST the toolbox. For something like what you are talking about I would have expected four figures easy! Not saying $300 is cheap... but I AM saying that it is reasonable considering how useful it is! The vag costs more than that... that is a great price! Time to start googling for a scope!

Not happy to hear about the gas up there, but then it has been proposed that the Top Tier gas consortium is kinda of... well.... BS. Basically that all of the gas from the refineries goes to the different vendors comes from the same place, and only the additives differentiate, and even though just barely. Throw in there that the age and quality of the tanks (and how much water and other impurity collections are in there) have a huge impact on what ends up in your gas tank... it sounds like you can get gas from a new station that is not top tier that is better than the gas from an old ass top tier station.

I was wondering if the last guy was putting in lower octane gas... but I figured that wouldn't make sense... if I had tons of cash to blow, nuthin but the best for my baby! Considering the condition of this car (especially the interior) after he put almost 40k mi on it... he really did seem to take care of it, so I am hoping that extended to what he put in the tank. I have seen worse wear on 10k mi cars!

BTW, spoke to the SR when I picked up my car, and he seemed confident that we would hear from Audi soon on the fix. I am not the only one at the dealership having the issue with an RS4, the other one is for a guy that bought it new, has 8k mi on it, and it has already lit the MIL 4 times (although I admit that sounds like it could be something else...? That is pretty damn fast).

Now that i think about it, I should have asked how much it would / will cost if I were paying. If not for now, when this thing is out of warranty if the root cause isn't fixed... this is something I will have to deal with on a regular basis... and would sure like to know what I am getting into :). Hopefully CPO will cover it, or I will be getting into this pretty quick!!

[V8weight]

I was mistaken, $469.95. Matco part number TP9350. It's manufactured by Cobra. Looks like it considerably cheaper here:
http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1...escope_uv.html
I guess I finally realized I have a tool buying problem, and stopped buying things because they were cool. I have 2 Matco 3 bay boxes, one at home and one at work. Tools are like crack to me
By the way, you have the longest posts:)

[crafty]

By the way, you have the longest posts:)

YEP!

[Fast'n'Go]

There is a TSB for the fuel sensor actually i think it was required vehicle update at one point. I dont think there is a TSB for the rs4 on this issue but i know there is a TSB on the A6 for the 3.2FSI motors with cold start misfires to check everything and if no spark plug/injector/coil problem then it says to replace the rocker arms and lifters on the effected exhaust side. But there have been a lot of people doing the cleaning of carbon on the 3.2 but it doenst look like it is a TSB as of yet.

[crafty]

I was mistaken, $469.95. Matco part number TP9350. It's manufactured by Cobra. Looks like it considerably cheaper here:
http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1...escope_uv.html
I guess I finally realized I have a tool buying problem, and stopped buying things because they were cool. I have 2 Matco 3 bay boxes, one at home and one at work. Tools are like crack to me
By the way, you have the longest posts:)

LOL, had to double post to be ironic! I feel sorry for the poor bastards that work for/with me... if you think my posts are long... u should see my email .

Yep, definitely had a tool crack problem myself. I owed more than one tool guy >5 figures for a little while after I first started out until I started really logging the flag hours (enabled by getting bad ass tools of course, vicious cycle ). Those guys were like loan sharks too, HIGH APR... I was a dumb ass when it came to debt.

These borescopes are badass, this one even has UV lighting to activate florescent dye, SWEET! Thanks for the link man!

[crafty]

There is a TSB for the fuel sensor actually i think it was required vehicle update at one point. I dont think there is a TSB for the rs4 on this issue but i know there is a TSB on the A6 for the 3.2FSI motors with cold start misfires to check everything and if no spark plug/injector/coil problem then it says to replace the rocker arms and lifters on the effected exhaust side. But there have been a lot of people doing the cleaning of carbon on the 3.2 but it doesn't look like it is a TSB as of yet.

Good to know, thanks! I have read in the other posts that it is a real PITA to really clean the valves, I never even considered replacing anything, or the rest of the system that could be affected for that matter. That is very interesting they recommended that for the 3.2, but not surprising I guess, but if it is just exhaust side(?) and they are doing lifters but not the valves... I am guessing that there are deposits on those as well, and by changing surfaces, it actually throws off the timing, no? Thinking that though, buildup on those parts is way worse than buildup on the back of the valves! depending on how severe it is and how close the tolerances are, that could be big trouble!

I found this (http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/RS4V8-StudyGuide.pdf) and it is printing it out now, it is AWESOME!! I never looked at teh PDF, just the google html version, this will help ALOT with figuring out how to design something that will prevent this (emissions will probably not be up to par, but with my high flow cats, probably are anyway :)).

Thakns again on the info, more to think about for sure.