RS4 owners READ this!

[WinterRunner]

http://rs246.com/index.php?name=PNph...&postorder=asc

An extensive thread all about how our engines get premature gunky buildup and what fuel additives and techniques are used to help remedy this situation. Also is some contact info, as they have been compiling data to submit to Audi. ITs worth a look. Cheers!

[WinterRunner]

So 82 hits and noone thinks this is an issue? hmmm....

[...Mark...]

Its only been an hour... Relax...

[jstahmann]

Yeah, I've been reading that thread on RS246 as it's unfolded. Some good information there. My local dealer has seen a couple of RS4s with gunky stuff and both cars have been using Costco gas...

[RAudi Driver]

Hey Winter, this has been an ongoing problem for the cel lights on our cars. There are two remedies for this.

1. take apart the manifold and clean it out.

2. Use this stuff which the dealer is now going to use instead of tearing apart the manifold every time it gunks up.

I don't know how this cleaner cleans the intake ports as the direct injection shoots the gas right into the combustion chamber, but I use it and have no problems. Just flipped 9k on the odo the other day.

150ml bottle, 10ml to 10 litre petrol. Pretty concentrated stuff. I also only use Chevron Super with Techro whatever in there. I've seen the inside of motors that exclusively run the Chevron and they are totally clean inside.

[WinterRunner]

Hey Winter, this has been an ongoing problem for the cel lights on our cars. There are two remedies for this.

1. take apart the manifold and clean it out.

2. Use this stuff which the dealer is now going to use instead of tearing apart the manifold every time it gunks up.

I don't know how this cleaner cleans the intake ports as the direct injection shoots the gas right into the combustion chamber, but I use it and have no problems. Just flipped 9k on the odo the other day.

Ed, how much for that, how often, and where can I get some. Im assuming you add it in with your oil? or gas? thanks!

BTW, I only use either Shell 93 or Mobil 93... no cheapo gas for me or my babies!

[RS Maniac]

You buy an $80K car and you save pennies by going to someone like Costco??? Never understood that mentality... Nothing wrong with saving money especially in this economy, but c'mon, considering the trade-off. I wouldn't do that to a car even if I were to lease it... Shell V-Power for me, Kimi Raikkonen's choice

WinterRunner, the bottle says Fuel Additive, so you mix with gas, not oil! Also, the concentration was a give-away: 10ml per 10ltrs petrol (Brit's way of saying 'gas" LOL).

I hope the buildup is not a huge issue. Carbon Buildup (in the secodnary air system though) on the E39 M5 was a cause of many sleepless nights for me and one of the biggest PITAs for the S62 engine (on top of fragile dual Vanoses)...

[RAudi Driver]

It's like $12 from the dealer. They also have an injector cleaner that's in a bigger bottle. I use both and interchange them.

I know that Shell is the premium gas for Europe but I don't think that it has the same cleaning ability as Chevron. Don't quote me on this. I hang around some guys who tear apart motors and they say that the chevron motors are the absolute cleanest. I mean like new clean.

I just forgot, the other day I saw a big banner at the Shell station. It read, "NEW NITROGEN ENRICHED GAS". This is the stuff that Chevron has been adding to their gas for years to help keep your motors clean.

[WinterRunner]

I dont want to have to take my manifold apart... I wouldnt even know where to start! How often is that fuel additive used? I wasn't reading it clearly when I read Eds responce. I feel dumb now realizing its a fuel additive......

[ARCH NME]

^^^ happens to the best of us homie

[RAudi Driver]

I dont want to have to take my manifold apart... I wouldnt even know where to start! How often is that fuel additive used? I wasn't reading it clearly when I read Eds responce. I feel dumb now realizing its a fuel additive......

The dealer would take it apart for you under warranty when your cel light goes on and they determine that the gunk is the problem. However, like I said, I think that AOA wants them to start using this stuff instead of tearing the manifold off.

The last time I had my car at the shop for, you guessed it, DRC, I inquired about a misfire cel light. They told me the situation then and directed me to the parts counter to get some of this stuff. I probably could have had them pour it in for free but that would entail checking the car in for service.

Use 1 bottle every 1,000 miles or so, I would guess.

[ThirdStrike]

would race gas be a good substitute to this additive?

[1FastS4.Com]

Going to check my parts department will def get some of this stuff.

[WinterRunner]

would race gas be a good substitute to this additive?

hahah I love your avatar! Thats awesome man. Ed, One bottle every 1k miles would mean like 2-3 sessions per bottle correct?
I was thinking 2 full bottles inbeteen oil changes (5K) should be sufficient correct? Isnt one gallon 2.2 liters or somethign like that?

[WinterRunner]

Just ordered 2 bottles myself... Lets see how this stuff does.... Thanks for the heads up Ed!

[99PanozAIV]

The B-head, 4.6L DOHC modular Ford engines, like I have in my Panoz, have a similar problem with the IMRC (Intake Manifold Runner Control) plates. The injector is before the valve, but only the primary one. The secondary runner control valve, which opens at 3250 rpm, gets all gummed up easily since it's just air (and oil mist) that flow over it. Most people go the route of taking things apart usually but some seem to think that Seafoam treatment helps.

I'm going on 16,000 miles now on my 2008 S4 and I don't seem to be using a bit of oil. I kind of wonder about the stories I hear with oil consumption with some Audi's.

[richib86]

these are the only gases i would use, in my case i exclusively use shell http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

[WinterRunner]

these are the only gases i would use, in my case i exclusively use shell http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

Hmm I would have thought Mobil would be up there...... So basically in my neck of the woods the only approved place on the list is Shell. Thanks for the info man!

[crafty]

The dealer would take it apart for you under warranty when your cel light goes on and they determine that the gunk is the problem. However, like I said, I think that AOA wants them to start using this stuff instead of tearing the manifold off.

The last time I had my car at the shop for, you guessed it, DRC, I inquired about a misfire cel light. They told me the situation then and directed me to the parts counter to get some of this stuff. I probably could have had them pour it in for free but that would entail checking the car in for service.

Use 1 bottle every 1,000 miles or so, I would guess.

Gonna go pick up my RS from service, will ask about this stuff. As you say though... I really don't see how any additive can do a damn thing for the top of the valves though, the pics I have seen are horrible, and combustion occurs before these parts are touched and the detergents in the fuel can do anything. That is probably partly why they get like this in the first place.

When I was a dealership tech (for Toyota), we used to use this stuff called BG 44K as an OIL additive vs. a fuel additive. This is not like that Slick 50 crap, it is added as a stronger detergent, not to change the characteristics or viscosity of the oil. Did it work? I dunno, but a lot of the older mechanics swore by it. That also could have been because we got this little yellow plastic sprocket thing in the bottom of every can that we used in a customers car though, which could be collected and traded for tools and stuff :). I have to assume that there are some decent oil detergent additives / short term detergents available to deal with this kind of problem without taking the motor apart though... I just don't think that a fuel additive alone would be enough given the design of the 4.2 FSI.

Also, I rebuilt several 2.4 toyota motors for friends all with much higher than 100k mi on them (2.4 22r/22re was common in 80-90s toy trucks, great simple, solid, and durable motors, but timing chain was a weakness on them, single row chains if I remember correctly which would stretch and wear). One thing that I DID get to see myself... ATF was great at cleaning the motors. I don't know if it was bad for any components... but before I would do the rebuild I would pop off the oil fill cap (on top of the valve cover on the top front of the valve cover, with it off you can see alot) and look around inside and see obvious sludge and basically dirty, sludgy head. Then pour in a quart of ATF, run the motor for about 10-20 min (shop fan in front to to give radiator airflow of course), then look again and I swear it was MUCH cleaner, pretty neat. I did this at the urging of the old dog mechanics at the shop... I thought they were BSing me but NOPE. I should have known better, because when the shop ran out of Goop (awesome hand cleaner), ATF worked almost as good (and then normal soap and water got off the ATF, although after using the ATF just drying off with a shop rag was "good enough" for going to lunch anyway). I dunno if anyone has ever worked on a rear diff, but getting that used and sludgy, scummy, stinky 80-90w crap off of your hands is impossible with water, but with ATF (or Goop) comes right off! Even cleans under your fingernails without too much effort. The ATF in the motor was only meant to be a short term detergent (thins oil too much to lubricate motor correctly for long term use) NOT meant to drive the car around with it, but BG 44K didn't change the characteristics of the oil allowing it to be used for the life of the oil (and was much slower acting, so I doubt an experiment like what I did with the ATF would work).

Anyway, back to the point, it has been over 10 years since I was a line tech, so I will have to do some internet searching on oil additives (detergent type), etc. and see if something like that can cure this issue... cos I am not so sure about putting ATF in my RS :). 2.4 R is a completely different motor, and I don't remember it being exactly high revving either...

ANy experience here with that kind of stuff? BG 44K for example...?

[richib86]

winterrunner, im in the same boat, of that list shell is the only one near me, and maybe its all in my head but i DO(at least i think i do) notice a diff in gas. the few occasions ive had to put mobil in cus no shell was around the car felt "different"

[crafty]

I use Quiktrip premium exclusively and have never had any issues (AND it is cheap, bonus!). When I cannot get to a quick trip, then I use either shell or Phillips 66, and I SWEAR that with Shell vpower my MPG goes up by at least 3-4 MPG per tank!

[richib86]

i swear by vpower, these cars were built and tested using it so i damn well am gunna use it too lol

[WinterRunner]

i swear by vpower, these cars were built and tested using it so i damn well am gunna use it too lol

Agreed, its my #1 choice too.

[crafty]

i swear by vpower, these cars were built and tested using it so i damn well am gunna use it too lol

I'll be damned, didn't know that! Guess I will switch to vpower all of the time, even though it is several miles out of the way :). Ah well, I will miss the folks at Quiktrip, I probably saw them three times a week filling my car :).

[WinterRunner]

I'll be damned, didn't know that! Guess I will switch to vpower all of the time, even though it is several miles out of the way :). Ah well, I will miss the folks at Quiktrip, I probably saw them three times a week filling my car :).

3 times week is good. Im at a gas station at least 4-5 times week with the amount of driving I do!

[FastB7S4]

I'll be damned, didn't know that! Guess I will switch to vpower all of the time, even though it is several miles out of the way :). Ah well, I will miss the folks at Quiktrip, I probably saw them three times a week filling my car :).

Quiktrip is listed as a top tier gasoline so you don't have to make the switch.

[Ill 3.0]

I thought the top tier gas list was corporate sponsored...

Anyway, any adverse effects on the fuel filter anyone is aware of from frequent injector cleaner use in the gas tank?

[RS Maniac]

The sad part is, are you really assured of the gas the pump claims it has? I've seen Getty trucks fill Exxon stations, Hess trucks fill Amocos, etc. At the end of the day, it may be a crapshoot...

[Swanky]

I like V Power, but I go one step further... I try to find gas stations with separate nozzles for each octane that way when some minivan fills up with 87 my 93 isn't diluted for the first gallon or so while the "tubes are cleared"... Harder to find separate nozzles these days as everyone converts to newer one nozzle setups for each octane.

[richib86]

^^ hmm i never thought about that... lol friggin minivans...

[V8weight]

Your pcv system vents directly into the intake runners, and in the process carries oil mist and hydrocarbons with it. This spells trouble for the RS4 with direct injection as there is no fuel spray to help wash this varnished oil back down. Has anybody tried running their pcv system into an oil catch can? This should solve the problem. It would keep your intake runners clean, and probably a lot cooler. Just my take on it.

[RAudi Driver]

Your pcv system vents directly into the intake runners, and in the process carries oil mist and hydrocarbons with it. This spells trouble for the RS4 with direct injection as there is no fuel spray to help wash this varnished oil back down. Has anybody tried running their pcv system into an oil catch can? This should solve the problem. It would keep your intake runners clean, and probably a lot cooler. Just my take on it.

No, you are wrong when it comes to the RS4. The RS4 has a very elaborate crankcase ventilation system and it's own catch can. I have put oil catch cans on almost every car that I have owned and wanted to put one in the RS4 until I saw that it already had one.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1325647

[V8weight]

good info.

[AlexDeutschland]

Hey guys, do I understand that right? Do you only have 87 to 93 octane in your gas in the USA?

[duud40]

Alex , fuel octane in the us is calculated in a different way than in eu (ron or roz) . In the eu its (ron+roz)/2(it might be the other way arround). So its actually the same as premium in eu.
The pcv of the rs4 v8 is deficitary (not working like it should) . Some owners have had oil drip out of the manifold upon extraction from the engine. Mounting one or two catch cans in series to the oem pcv will reduce oil eaten by engine. Venting the pcv to atmosphere is not an option as the oem pcv only works when vacuum is present. Using a automotive vacuum pump and venting to atmosphere creates another problem, that of vacuum being present all the time as opposed to only under engine load unless the two stage cranckcase pressure control valve can take care of that for us.

[duud40]

Neither fuel nor oil aditives are going to help in any way...
Only aerosol injected into manifold after maf can maybe free up some of the gunk . That will however not get rid of the cause and you will be back where you started in 3-4000 miles. Think about it ... where does 1l of oil each 1000 to 4000 km go? It's definately not expended inside the crankcase , if it is however eaten because of faulty pcv it's giving two strokes a run for the money lol :)

[duud40]

One other cause migh be the pcv having a reservoir that is too small, the intervals in which the pcv can drain being too far apart and thus the reservoir fills up and stops working. In this case taping the pcv reservoir and adding volume via a separate chamber or draining oil from the pcv into a catch can , circumventing the oil separator control valve, may well rid us of the problem.

[KryptoniK]

another "solution" we can consider is doing a Meth Injection kit. It will benefit in various things... possibly more power, cooler air intake temp and clean the intire intake track since the meth mixture has cleaning properties. Not sure if it would be enough though.

[WinterRunner]

another "solution" we can consider is doing a Meth Injection kit. It will benefit in various things... possibly more power, cooler air intake temp and clean the intire intake track since the meth mixture has cleaning properties. Not sure if it would be enough though.

Very good idea, this looks like something defenitely to consider.
How would one look into this? Are there "kits" available? Thanks.
I do know they take the manifold apart every 20K to clean the carbon buildups, but do you think this is enough?

[Keith@APR]

The 2.0T FSI owners are going through similar issues. The biggest difference is that their turbo engines don't have as much trouble with misfires and such until the gunk really builds up.

I know some 2.0T FSI owners that have run the gamut of sea foam, et al. to try and clean the deposits with little success. Some are testing meth injection just for the port runner cleaning opportunities but there has been little success so far.

VAG's patent info regarding the FSI mentions the only way to keep this from happening is to remove the pcv and the other oil blow by recirc stuff but they couldn't do it for emissions reasons.

The 2.0T owners are going with catch cans and pcv deletes and just never recirc'ing anything.