Timing Belt Disaster?! Updated with vid.

[seanriv]

Ok....
Just finished my first tbelt. Made sure the cam and crank were in the correct spot and made sure that they did not move the entire process. Followed the AudiWorld DIY to a T. Started it and it is misfiring but no codes, sounds like the cylinder in the back. Cylinder 4? Checked for vac leaks and could not find any. Did I mess up the timing and not realize it? Please help, shittin bricks.
Thanks!
Sean

[Poopie]

timing the motor can be tricking the first time. did you rotate the crank once to see if the notches matched up?

[seanriv]

Poopie,
Yes I did that. I would go clockwise and couldnt get it to land on the marks, would have to go counter a little to get it to all line up. This was also on the original belt before I took it off. After I took the old one off ,the cam and crank never moved until the new belt was on. Im so tired.....

[Jeff]

Poopie,
Yes I did that. I would go clockwise and couldnt get it to land on the marks, would have to go counter a little to get it to all line up. This was also on the original belt before I took it off. After I took the old one off ,the cam and crank never moved until the new belt was on. Im so tired.....

The cam and crank doesnt have to move, for its the actual belt deflection that will pull everything apart when you crank it.

I usually drop the upper bolt on the hydraulic unit so that the idler pulley drops and relieves tension on the belt, and reinstall the new belt the same way:

http://www.audigeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=3171.0

[seanriv]

Do u guys think it's a vacumm leak or 1 tooth off on the timing belt? If I give it a little gas it does not misfire. ???

[Jeff]

Do u guys think it's a vacumm leak or 1 tooth off on the timing belt? If I give it a little gas it does not misfire. ???

It's really hard to tell based on what you're saying. You can check the timing marks at the crank as well as the cam gear by removing the belt cover.

As long as they are both lining up, you are fine. Having a tooth or so off will cause the car to idle very rough, almost like a nasty boost leak/missfire.

[seanriv]

Thanks Jeff. You are probably right. Is it ok to recompress the new tensioner with a vise?

[Jeff]

Thanks Jeff. You are probably right. Is it ok to recompress the new tensioner with a vise?

You have to be VERY CAREFUL when doing that...if you tighten it too fast, you will destroy it. I would put MINIMAL pressure on it...a little fraction of a turn at a time. When you try the spin the vise, it will feel tight...so do not force it. You want the unit to retract very slowly, before you give it another small spin. Do this (it will take a few minutes) until it is fully retracted, then reinsert the pin.

However, you should be able to just drop the hydraulic piece from the upper bolt...and then spin the tensioner pulley (with the allen end) so it clears the arm to reinsert the hydraulic unit.

[Jeff]

Follow this:

[seanriv]

cool thanks jeff. That second tip about swiveling the tensionor out of the way, is that an alternative to compressing the tensioner with the vice?

[Jeff]

cool thanks jeff. That second tip about swiveling the tensionor out of the way, is that an alternative to compressing the tensioner with the vice?

Yes.

[seanriv]

Thanks Jeff. I think everything is all lined up. I will give an update after I turn the key in an hour. Pray for me.

[Jeff]

Thanks Jeff. I think everything is all lined up. I will give an update after I turn the key in an hour. Pray for me.

I'm Atheist and don't pray, but I will definitely have a cold one for ya.

Also remember to let the hydralic tension SETTLE, and rotate the crank 4-5 times and recheck the timing marks a few minutes later. If everything is in place after that, feel free to start her up.

Good luck

[seanriv]

haha. Made absolutely sure everything was lined up. Started it up and still missing like crazy. Before when I was 1 or 2 teeth, do you think a valve went into a piston? I will do a compression check later this week. I will also post a vid in a couple hours to get some feedback. Thanks . Update soon.
-Sean

[Poopie]

1 or 2 teeth off is fine. sounds like thats what happened. retime it and see what happens.

[Jeff]

haha. Made absolutely sure everything was lined up. Started it up and still missing like crazy. Before when I was 1 or 2 teeth, do you think a valve went into a piston? I will do a compression check later this week. I will also post a vid in a couple hours to get some feedback. Thanks . Update soon.
-Sean

So your timing WAS off by 1-2 teeth...you fixed and re-timed it, and it's still doing the same thing? It shouldn't be enough to really bend any valves, but I've never really had this happen to give you a definite answer.

But your car will sound like it's losing compression when you are cranking the started if that is the case. Either way, do a compression test to make sure all your valves are sealing, or do a leak down to pinpoint on which side the leak is occuring (intake side, exhaust side, etc) before we all start freaking out. If your compression is fine, then it's something else....could be something very stupid, yet you never think about (injector or MAF that decided to consequently take a dump after the belt)...etc.

Good Luck

[seanriv]

Here is a vid. When I was a couple teeth off and retimed I did hear air as I rotated the crank. Does that mean the worst has happened? Check out the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svq2xxVTMPA

[dwi_gti]

I do know of cases where 2 teeth off has bent valves. But yours is runing better then a 20v would run with bent vavles.

[Poopie]

time to do a leak down check.

[seanriv]

Im such a failure! Can you point me to a leak down test and cylinder compression DIY? Thanks for the help guys.
-Sean

[Don Supreme]

ouch

#1 No music when posting online video for people to diagnose critical engine failure *lol*

#2 Sounds bad to me........... I would seriously fear the worse @ this point.

[seanriv]

Forgot the music was on,lol. Oh well , now I am forced to build the bottom end for BT, if the motor is in fact screwed.

[Don Supreme]

Forgot the music was on,lol. Oh well , now I am forced to build the bottom end for BT, if the motor is in fact screwed.

Is that a 2000?

if you want to build for a BT then sure, but having it pushed on you like this means a lot of down time.

You can either pull the head and have a shop rebuild it.

Otherwise you can buy another head.

P.S. I have a AWM and AEB head for sale LMK if you are interested.

[seanriv]

Thanks, On Weds I will contact you if I need a new head. Could you pm me a price? Thanks again. And yes it is a 2000 ATW Manual Q.
-Sean

[A4Andrew]

i have experienced a similar episode. it turned out they gave me the wrong belt. the tooth space on the new belt was a lil bigger. i put the old and new belt together, tooth to tooth, and it didn't match after the 10th tooth.

[seanriv]

Thanks, I will look at that.

[quattro16]

I have seen some belts off by 4-5 teeth and nothing was wrong when retimed.

[seanriv]

Ok, you are giving me hope. Would a mistimed engine that was a few teeth off backfire like this. And is retiming the engine as simple as realigning the crank and cam TDC marks?
Thanks
Sean

[Jeff]

Im such a failure! Can you point me to a leak down test and cylinder compression DIY? Thanks for the help guys.
-Sean

Compression test would be sufficient to diagnose bent valves or loss of compression:

http://www.audigeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=2769.0

[Jeff]

i have experienced a similar episode. it turned out they gave me the wrong belt. the tooth space on the new belt was a lil bigger. i put the old and new belt together, tooth to tooth, and it didn't match after the 10th tooth.

ACTUALLY....That COULD be another possibility. I never thought about that. If he was +/- 1-2 tooth, it really shouldnt be enough to really do major damage...but if he is a tooth short, then it will be enough to make it sound like this.

The AEB and ATW uses a 153 teeth belt, while the AWM and AMB (B6) use a shorter belt.

seanriv...where did you purchase the timing belt from? Did you specify it for an ATW? Can you pull the part number or take a picture of the label on the belt???

[seanriv]

Thanks Jeff. I got the tbelt kit from blauparts. Before I installed the new one, I made sure that both the new and old belt where the same. I cant remember the size of the belt, but both belt had the exact same measurement markings. Pretty sure it was 153 tooth. Yes I made sure I stated ATW also.
At this point I need to do a compression check and a leakdown test. If those are ok, then I need to retime the motor. Is retiming just realigning the cam and crank marks? I cant do this till thursday, my car is in my shop 30 miles away from where I live in San Fran.

[Jeff]

Thanks Jeff. I got the tbelt kit from blauparts. Before I installed the new one, I made sure that both the new and old belt where the same. I cant remember the size of the belt, but both belt had the exact same measurement markings. Pretty sure it was 153 tooth. Yes I made sure I stated ATW also.
At this point I need to do a compression check and a leakdown test. If those are ok, then I need to retime the motor. Is retiming just realigning the cam and crank marks? I cant do this till thursday, my car is in my shop 30 miles away from where I live in San Fran.

Follow the compression check DIY link that I sent. Too bad you're up in NoCal, I would have given you a hand if you were in SoCal.

Let us know if you need any additional help.

[seanriv]

Thanks Jeff. I owe ya one. I will give ya an update when I get back to my pride and joy.

[seanriv]

Ok, UPDATE. Compression was good 150,145,147,145! Re timed everything marks are perfect. Cam TDC mark on and crank mark dead on. Motor is still misfiring, but NO check engine light. Even VAG Com scanned it. The engine has a rough idle between 800-1000 rpms.I really think the coil packs went out, not sure which one. How can I test each coilpack to figure out which ones are bad and good. Any other Ideas?

[njm23]

vag-com to see what cylinders are mis-firing, then swap a bad and one good one to see if the misfire follows.

[BADB5A4]

Didnt see it mentioned anywhere above but have you thought about the injectors at all. I had a bad misfire once due to one being clogged. Would be a really far out coincidence but maybe one of yours is out?

[Jeff]

Ok, UPDATE. Compression was good 150,145,147,145! Re timed everything marks are perfect. Cam TDC mark on and crank mark dead on. Motor is still misfiring, but NO check engine light. Even VAG Com scanned it. The engine has a rough idle between 800-1000 rpms.I really think the coil packs went out, not sure which one. How can I test each coilpack to figure out which ones are bad and good. Any other Ideas?

[In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen]

So your belt is good, and all valves are sealing and opening when they should. These compression numbers are a bit low, but your engine and oil is also COLD...but the numbers ARE within spec for a healthy engine.

So now you need to figure out what's causing the rough idles, and as BADB5 mentioned, it could be a faulty injector.

Some major causes for rough idle on a 2000 ATW:

#1: Mass Air Flow sensor (check VAG-COM, idle g/s readings should be 2.0-5.0 g/s) - which can then relate to:
#2: Replace your ECT sensor behind the head (coolant temp). Since you've flushed your coolant from changing the water pump, the sensor could have taken a dump in the meantime. Is your sensor black or green? Replace it either way with a new green unit.

Other possible causes:

#3: Boost Leak
#4: Faulty Injector(s) (Check your injector on-time, and log it then post it)
#5: Fouled Plugs?
#6: Bad/failing coilpack (more unlikely on a 2000 ATW, but still possible)

[seanriv]

Thanks doctor jeff.
I will run through these and see if they are the culprit. Hopefully I will update with (it is running now). haha

[seanriv]

Jeff or others,
OK, replaced coolant sensor and spark plugs. Was missing less. Had misfires in cylinders 1 and 3, swapped coil packs. Misfire didnt move. New plugs after 2 minutes came out black.ALSO, oil and white smoke out the exhaust! It seemed to almost want to idle but just didnt. I also want to log timing but not sure how. BUT, I logged 003 and 033 for Maf diagnoses. This is the link, can you guys tell anything?
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...V7F3sLZA&hl=en

Anything else, other than swapping injectors?
-Sean

[Jeff]

Don't log those.... read my post on this thread:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263164