Paging Keith@APR - turbo dyno sheets

[swoardrider]

Hi Keith,
Can you possibly post up a single dyno graph that overlays stock vs 93 chip vs k04 vs stage 3 BT? I'm trying to decide which turbo kit to go with, and this would be a big help. Trying to compare with 3 separate dyno sheets is a pain.
I think this will help other AZ'rs as well.

Thanks

[swoardrider]

Bueller, Bueller

[Keith@APR]

Sorry man, for some reason my beeper hasn't worked since highschool.

Arin is working on it for us as we speak and it will be ready shortly.

[Arin@APR]

I know it looks like a joke but it's the best I could do in 5 minutes. :-p

[extremesport3]

looks to me like the K04 would be the best all around, nice low range torque curve! i love it.

[06B7audiA4]

Hoping the KO4 price tag doesnt hurt to much :P

[swoardrider]

Arin,
I think the stage 3 is off on the graph you just posted. I believe it should be making about 250lbs of torque at 3000 rpm

[Keith@APR]

looks to me like the K04 would be the best all around, nice low range torque curve! i love it.

Until you hit 5500rpm's and the Stage 3 car instantly puts 3 car lengths on you.

[Glassnpowder98]

Until you hit 5500rpm's and the Stage 3 car instantly puts 3 car lengths on you.

Is that the three car lengths you lost waiting for your turbo to spool up at 4000rpm's? It seems like the K04 would put a lot less wear on your car because it's not spooling like crazy at really high RPM's and you don't have to drive around at high RPM's to have any power. Any comments about that?

[bernB5]

Is that the three car lengths you lost waiting for your turbo to spool up at 4000rpm's? It seems like the K04 would put a lot less wear on your car because it's not spooling like crazy at really high RPM's and you don't have to drive around at high RPM's to have any power. Any comments about that?

there's absolutely no logic in what you just said. who starts a race in 3rd gear at 2000rpm? nobody.
and more wear on your motor, if there even was wear from making such little power, would be from the big torque spike and quick-spooling ko4, but neither of these setups will harm the engine.
and spooling like crazy at really high rpms? the car was barely reved out, and the turbo has already spooled, the k04 is just inefficient and can't hold constant boost to redline, so power and boost go down = no top end. the stage 3 kit holds boost to redline and therefore has a steady power curve in the upper rpms, which feels alot better.

[Mike@APR]

Is that the three car lengths you lost waiting for your turbo to spool up at 4000rpm's? It seems like the K04 would put a lot less wear on your car because it's not spooling like crazy at really high RPM's and you don't have to drive around at high RPM's to have any power. Any comments about that?

I drive a Stage 3 A4 everyday. It does not spool at 4000 RPM. PEAK boost is achieved between 3200 and 3500 RPM depending on the gear and loading situation (this is due to N75 control load-based control). The 3500 RPM peak boost situation is when I run the car from 2000 RPM to Redline doing a 4th gear pull for datalogging. The Stage 3 is a very streetable kit.

I like the K04 as well but as the dyno plots show, it shines down low while sacrificing some power at the top end. In addition, the K04 is close to it's full capacity on the 93 octane file (within safe limits, of course) from an airflow/boost standpoint. You can add timing in the 100 octane file and pick up some very decent power but you really can't go much further with boost. In addition, if you tried to push much further, the intercooling of the charge air becomes so much more critical because you would be moving to a lower efficiency island on the compressor map.

At redline in my Stage 3 B7, the N75 duty cycle is about 65%. If you were requesting the full capacity of this turbo the duty cycle would be 100%. So, there's a lot more head room in the Stage 3 setup for those who plan to go bigger at a later date. We have not made a firm decision yet on the next step for the Stage 3 but since there's so much head room left, we could go further with other proper modifications to support it.

Just my $0.02.

[Glassnpowder98]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess if you're launching from 3-4k rpms in 1st gear, the longer time it takes for the bigger turbo to spool up will pretty much be a moot point because it will only be a split second. Sorry, don't have any experience driving a BT setup, so thanks for the insight...

Thank you Mike as well.

[bernB5]

I drive a Stage 3 A4 everyday. It does not spool at 4000 RPM. PEAK boost is achieved between 3200 and 3500 RPM depending on the gear and loading situation (this is due to N75 control load-based control). The 3500 RPM peak boost situation is when I run the car from 2000 RPM to Redline doing a 4th gear pull for datalogging. The Stage 3 is a very streetable kit.

I like the K04 as well but as the dyno plots show, it shines down low while sacrificing some power at the top end. In addition, the K04 is close to it's full capacity on the 93 octane file (within safe limits, of course) from an airflow/boost standpoint. You can add timing in the 100 octane file and pick up some very decent power but you really can't go much further with boost. In addition, if you tried to push much further, the intercooling of the charge air becomes so much more critical because you would be moving to a lower efficiency island on the compressor map.

At redline in my Stage 3 B7, the N75 duty cycle is about 65%. If you were requesting the full capacity of this turbo the duty cycle would be 100%. So, there's a lot more head room in the Stage 3 setup for those who plan to go bigger at a later date. We have not made a firm decision yet on the next step for the Stage 3 but since there's so much head room left, we could go further with other proper modifications to support it.

Just my $0.02.

what about a stage 4? using the entire stage 3 kit, but offering it with a 3071 for those guys with rods, who want 400+awhp on 93oct daily? Similar to the tuning help you provided with USP on their 3076 equipped gti.

[Auditude2.0T]

what about a stage 4? using the entire stage 3 kit, but offering it with a 3071 for those guys with rods, who want 400+awhp on 93oct daily? Similar to the tuning help you provided with USP on their 3076 equipped gti.

No need for that. Do some rods, pistons, cam, heads with the same exact turbo charger at 28PSI and you will see 450AWHP

[bob12312357]

Smooth power bands like the Stage 3 don't kill motors. A torque spike of 200ftlbs in 1000RPM is gonna melt your rods if you get a spike. Revving a motor doesn't really hurt it much and theres less load on the motor in the upper RPMS. My old 600CC bike revved at 8K on the highway for 3 hours straight repeatedly. That was when I wasn't beating it to within an inch of its life redlining the first 5 gears. I sold it to a buddy with 42K miles. It's got over 60 now and runs mint. People are afraid of Revs, what do you think your A4 would rev at on the autobahn gentlemen?

[bernB5]

No need for that. Do some rods, pistons, cam, heads with the same exact turbo charger at 28PSI and you will see 450AWHP

it's a 2871r.. some people don't like running their turbo's to the limit. Plus, i'm talking about pump gas.. you don't run 28psi on pump unless you're using w/m, and even still, a 3071 or 3076 would be alot more fun.
all the motor needs is rods.. a cam and heads? the stock head flows plenty, and the cams could be changed, but there's not much out there yet, and it's not necessary to make 400+. USP made 600+ on a 30r with stock cams. stock pistons are not the problem, the rods are the weak link.
A 3071 has very similar spool and makes alot more power, especially up top. If they're using a t3 manifold, it's just a matter of swapping the turbo and making some tuning adjustments.

[Keith@APR]

Is that the three car lengths you lost waiting for your turbo to spool up at 4000rpm's? It seems like the K04 would put a lot less wear on your car because it's not spooling like crazy at really high RPM's and you don't have to drive around at high RPM's to have any power. Any comments about that?

The powerband is a compromise based on preference. If you want downlow power for ease of driving around town without downshifting the ko4 is great.

If you want a really fast car, you should go for the Stage 3. Noone races in the lower rpm's in any setting except for some of the faster road courses where you are modulating throttle through the apex and trying to scrub/carry speed. The problem with a ko4 though is once you exit the corner you are going to get some pretty violent acceleration due to all that torque whereas the Stage 3 will come on more smoothly building into a rush of power as rpm's increase.

For me, the ko4 is alot more on/off than a Stage 3. Also, some peeps love big turbo powerbands, some don't. It really is a preference. However, if the quest is the fastest of the 2, Stage 3 wins hands down in any type of performance measurement.

Have you ever been in a race where you had start below 3000 rpm's and weren't allowed to downshift?

And you also have to remember that alot of big turbo kits out there are calibrated beyond the oem map sensor's ability to read boost and are therefore very difficult to manage with throttle input. With an APR Stage 3 you can pretty much determine your target boost through accelerator input. Its the benefit of maintaining the load based ecu capabilities. You can literally go from 0 psi to the full 20 psi by incrementally increasing throttle input at almost any rpm point above 3200.

[IceMole]

Did the k04 mistake with b6 didn't last long, nothing like upgrading a little turbo to a bigger little turbo, never again.

[Keith@APR]

Did the k04 mistake with b6 didn't last long, nothing like upgrading a little turbo to a bigger little turbo, never again.

In the ko4's defense it is more of an upgrade on the new engine. The difference in ko3 and ko4 size is larger for the 2.0T FSI.

The B6 ko4 was what, 40 hp increase or some such? The B7 ko4 is at least 75hp over a chipped B7 ko3.

[extremesport3]

give me a k04 ANYDAY..... until i drive a Stage 3 (Pete!!). I just think that all this is great but the way i look at it is the K04 is a nice power upgrade all around. This car is not meant to be crazy fast (IMO). If you want a fast car you need to spend the money and get something that is not 4 cylinder for 1 and is able to handle crazy boost from a turbo system. As much as i hate to say it, i really like the nissan GT-R (which is my case and point).

thats my $.02

John

[RedS-line]

How many people here really need Stage3 BT for racing over a nice daily driver K04? Everyone loves big power, but looking at the graphs, the K04 would work just fine for me unless i decided to devote my car to racing. in that case, i would pick a better car for that purpose.

[swoardrider]

Keith,
The reason why I started this thread was to try and figure out which kit to get. The dilemma I have is that for the 20 days per year I'm at the road race track, the stage 3 is the best choice since I'm rarely below 3k rpm's. And I'm sick of not being able to get around the point-by's unless they lift a lot. But around town I'm rarely above 3k rpms. Its tough to stomach a $8000-$10,000 price tag (including labor and tranny costs) when I won't see a benefit around town. In fact, if the graphs are accurate, a chip alone will yield more power than the stage 3 around town. I was hoping the stage 3 would be at least the same around town as a chip. Then I won't feel like I just wasted a bunch of money.

I wish there was something in between. Like maybe a Garrett 2860??

Or is there a way to make more torque down low on the stage 3?

[ZYAAA21]

give me a k04 ANYDAY..... until i drive a Stage 3 (Pete!!). I just think that all this is great but the way i look at it is the K04 is a nice power upgrade all around. This car is not meant to be crazy fast (IMO). If you want a fast car you need to spend the money and get something that is not 4 cylinder for 1 and is able to handle crazy boost from a turbo system. As much as i hate to say it, i really like the nissan GT-R (which is my case and point).

thats my $.02

John

Extreme your not extreme you cant even drive your car right. Trade it in.....

When I go stage3 your going to be the first to upgrade....

[Keith@APR]

I need for Arin to fix the overlay graph. He is working on it. I think we've just confused the hell out of everyone.

The Stage 3 is more drivable around town than the graph relays as Mike pointed out and others.

I wish I could free trial Stage 3's for you guys!

The 28rs just doesn't make enough power over a ko4 at any point to justify it. The ko4 is very close in size to a 28rs. A 28rs is going to give you 340'ish and the ko4 is going to give you 330'ish. The ko4 will spool faster and make more torque.

[IceMole]

The 28rs just doesn't make enough power over a ko4 at any point to justify it. The ko4 is very close in size to a 28rs. A 28rs is going to give you 340'ish and the ko4 is going to give you 330'ish. The ko4 will spool faster and make more torque.

So you're saying the GT isn't worth it? I'm confused now.

[acidrome]

hes was referring to the GT28rs being close to the K04 not the GT2871r

[IceMole]

yea I see that now, sorry on my phone and didn't read above it

[swoardrider]

hes was referring to the GT28rs being close to the K04 not the GT2871r

What's the difference between a Garrett 2860r and a 2860rs? I can't find it on their website

[06B7audiA4]

I wish I could free trial Stage 3's for you guys!

Who said you can't :P

[golfvdude]

I drive a Stage 3 A4 everyday. It does not spool at 4000 RPM. PEAK boost is achieved between 3200 and 3500 RPM depending on the gear and loading situation (this is due to N75 control load-based control). The 3500 RPM peak boost situation is when I run the car from 2000 RPM to Redline doing a 4th gear pull for datalogging. The Stage 3 is a very streetable kit.

I like the K04 as well but as the dyno plots show, it shines down low while sacrificing some power at the top end. In addition, the K04 is close to it's full capacity on the 93 octane file (within safe limits, of course) from an airflow/boost standpoint. You can add timing in the 100 octane file and pick up some very decent power but you really can't go much further with boost. In addition, if you tried to push much further, the intercooling of the charge air becomes so much more critical because you would be moving to a lower efficiency island on the compressor map.

At redline in my Stage 3 B7, the N75 duty cycle is about 65%. If you were requesting the full capacity of this turbo the duty cycle would be 100%. So, there's a lot more head room in the Stage 3 setup for those who plan to go bigger at a later date. We have not made a firm decision yet on the next step for the Stage 3 but since there's so much head room left, we could go further with other proper modifications to support it.

Just my $0.02.

So does this mean a permanent fix for the cam follower and cams ?....possibly?....maybe???

[DOBERMAN@UA]

I need for Arin to fix the overlay graph. He is working on it. I think we've just confused the hell out of everyone.

The Stage 3 is more drivable around town than the graph relays as Mike pointed out and others.

I wish I could free trial Stage 3's for you guys!

The 28rs just doesn't make enough power over a ko4 at any point to justify it. The ko4 is very close in size to a 28rs. A 28rs is going to give you 340'ish and the ko4 is going to give you 330'ish. The ko4 will spool faster and make more torque.

Here is DYNO of Skoda 2.0 T(stock 1.8 T) builded engine with 28 RS turbo and full race manifold

[Keith@APR]

Here is DYNO of Skoda 4x4 2.0 T(stock 1.8 T) builded engine with 28 RS turbo and full race manifold

Unfortunately you can't compare that at all to our 2.0T FSI. I'm sure the compression ratio is much lower seeing at it's a 1.8T and it's a built engine. They've prolly lowered the c.r. to 8.5 and therefore aren't as knock limited with the 28rs as it would be on the higher c.r. of the 2.0T FSI or even the stock 1.8T c.r. They are also more than likely pulling out all stops with higher octane fuel, as much boost as possible and other engine mods like cams, etc.

FWIW, we made 363whp (funny its the exact same number) on a 1.8T with a 28rs as well with our intake manifold, Stage 3+, 8.5:1 c.r. and lot's of boost. This was built for a drag racer that wanted all the stops pulled out. The same car later went through 2 more turbo's, bigger each time, and ended up with well over 400whp and was running 10's. If anyone is familiar with 18bora from id=27 you know what I'm talking about. It was a purpose built drag car in a Jetta.

If you are looking for a severe loss of drivability, on/off boost strategy, an engine that has alot of parts changed and tuned to the ragged edge, you can always make more power than what we offer with our Stage 3 kits. You must remember we are going for oem engineering quality and that results in something being left on the table for the hardcore guys. We aren't here to support the 10% of the enthusiasts that are wanting to acheive such goals. We are here to help the guys that want power with no compromise and want to enhance their driving experience not completely change it. I love Audi's. I love their refinement and stealthy countenance. I think alot of us do and our job at APR is to make them perform without deteriorating any of the good stuff about having the newest technologies and luxurious driving characteristics. Its similar to comparing a Porsche to a Vette imo. Sure a Vette is cheaper and faster but it doesn't make you feel like a P-car does. We could all just get a Civic and spend $6k and run 10's but very few of us want that for other reasons.

We've tested the ko4 on the 2.0T FSI to incredible torque numbers, literally mind boggling even, but guess what? EGT's were through the roof and we don't offer products like that. So we pulled back until we matched all oem component stresses and tolerances with some margin for safety.

Edited as I just realized that is crank power in the graph. There is more left in their setup too then depending on how many engine parts they have changed. They are more like at 320-330whp which is easily possible with a 28rs and lower compression. A 28rs won't make that safely on our engines at higher compression. You can't add boost and pull timing to avoid knock as the egt's will climb to dangerous levels.

[DOBERMAN@UA]

Edited as I just realized that is crank power in the graph. There is more left in their setup too then depending on how many engine parts they have changed. They are more like at 320-330whp which is easily possible with a 28rs and lower compression. A 28rs won't make that safely on our engines at higher compression. You can't add boost and pull timing to avoid knock as the egt's will climb to dangerous levels.

You are completely right, the stock only block(if I can say so, it was a litle custom moded), mods for car are about 18 k here in Ukraine. I just posted dyno of 28 RS because a lot of people(me too) is interested whether to buy new k04 or 28 RS based kit. As far as I see it is better for drivability to buy k04, because it has power and torque of 3.5 liter atmosphere engine..
The question is why this could hurt the engine "A 28rs won't make that safely on our engines at higher compression. You can't add boost and pull timing to avoid knock as the egt's will climb to dangerous levels"?

[gpultro]

No need for that. Do some rods, pistons, cam, heads with the same exact turbo charger at 28PSI and you will see 450AWHP

i like the way you move.... my car is at the shop get shit done are you going to asp for dyno day with you beast from another mother

[swoardrider]

Still waiting for Arin to fix the stage 3 on the comparison graph

[Arin@APR]

Refresh the page, I updated the graph. I couldnt get it in excel so I just redrew it.

[Auditude2.0T]

By redline the stage 3 has 75Hp on the k04

[swoardrider]

Thanks Arin. For road racing, it looks like the stage 3 is a no brainer. I'm just super bummed that a $10k stage 3 built car is gonna be slower around town than a chipped stage 1 unless I wind the piss out of the motor. I'm new to turbo motors. Is there any way to get more low end out of a stage 3 motor without doing something drastic like increasing displacement?

[rnp614]

Thanks Arin. For road racing, it looks like the stage 3 is a no brainer. I'm just super bummed that a $10k stage 3 built car is gonna be slower around town than a chipped stage 1 unless I wind the piss out of the motor. I'm new to turbo motors. Is there any way to get more low end out of a stage 3 motor without doing something drastic like increasing displacement?

Oh come on, the difference from a chip isnt THAT drastic. If you want all those top end horses you must sacrifice!

[dextrek]

Thanks Arin. For road racing, it looks like the stage 3 is a no brainer. I'm just super bummed that a $10k stage 3 built car is gonna be slower around town than a chipped stage 1 unless I wind the piss out of the motor. I'm new to turbo motors. Is there any way to get more low end out of a stage 3 motor without doing something drastic like increasing displacement?

I can assure you that stage 3 car is not gonna be slower around town than a chipped stage 1... unless you are racing a 30 ft race.