Questions about Denver and elevation

[audispeed08]

OK so I am currently attending the University of Denver as a freshmen. I came over from Seattle WA when I bought my 2005 6 speed 1.8t A4. In Seattle I did APR's stage 1+ chip, fuel injectors, diverter value, coil packs, and exhaust.

Now today I was told from a MTM dealer that my APR software is actually really bad for my car at this altitude. I think I am running 22 pounds of boost which is a lot for my little K03. Anyways I was told that if I keep running this that my turbo would die in 10,000 miles or so.

Am I really killing my car by running all this? I know at sea level my car is fine, but what about up here.

any ideas help,
Thanks

[DenverNoob]

well, lets talk about who give you that information first and foremost, because some if it is true to some degree, some is not.

It is true that turbos work harder here, especially little wee ones like the k03 and k04 turbos.

lets talk about what your turbo is really doing though. If it is anything like my k03 on GIAC 1+ was, you may spike 22, but you are holding 15ish to red line, perhaps 18 to 5000 rpm. That is normal from a boost perspective. Data logging or taking a peak at a boost gauge is a good idea to see where the boost stands, but I can tell you from experience that your k03 is NOT holding 22 to redline, no matter what the software is asking for.

Now is your software performing well up here....maybe yes, maybe no. Only data logging can tell you that. many people have had really good experience with APR software up here in certain applications, others have not. Just depends on the car and the ECU.

If the MTM dealer is just trying to get you to change software, that is a crock. Without logging your car, there is absolutely NO way to tell you if everything is ok or not (and even if it isnt, software may NOT be the reason), but there have been PLENTY of people running GIAC, APR, REVO, MTM, and every other flavor of tune on a B6 1.8t on a stock turbo 1+ setup for tens of thousands of miles without turbo failure. I am one of them....or at elast I used to be.

side note: Hope all is well at DU. I have 2 degrees from that fine institution and still have lots of friends that live around campus (although we are old people at the age of 30). I drive through that neighborhood quite a bit. A very good local shop is 10 minutes away from you, Autobahn Premier Service. Though they are a GIAC dealer, they do great logging work and problem solving, even on cars equipped with software other than GIAC. Hit them up for info, tell them Ted sent you. (303) 935-9065

[audispeed08]

Well thank you very much for all the info Ted. I'll make sure to mention you name if/when I check out this shop.

haha ok so what do you mean by "I am one of them....or at elast I used to be." Just wondering what went wrong. I starting to deal with some turbo issues as well. My check engine light keeps coming on saying I have a under boost. I'm going to take it in after skiing this weekend. Maybe I'll try out your shop you mentioned.

Thanks

[CO AVANT]

you get a check engine light for under boosting? You really need to log your car. Just delt with another k04 apr customer here at elevation that was under boosting. Check your N75 valve, dv, boost leak test, etc. I ran my k04 up here to 25psi spikes all the time. If you are spiking 22psi at sea level you will only be spiking 19-20psi up here....and like Ted said it will taper down toward redline. It will pretty much fall on its face after 5252rpms. The key up here is to keep your egts down. A bigger intercooler like the ER sport is recommended for even K03 apps. I had a ecode fmic on my k04 and would still pull 85deg C IATs up here in the summer. Now with the ER Comp on a MUCH bigger setup my IAT's are at 30-40 all the time. Much better for engine and turbo exhaust side.

[audispeed08]

This is the second time I have had the check engine light on up here in Denver. The first time I took it in they hooked up the computer to it and took it for a spin. That when I found out I was running 22psi, or thats what the shop said. Now the light is back on so I am taking it in tomorrow and am just going to have them pressure the system to see if I have a leak.

Does it sound like I am doing the right thing or should I be trying something else?

What do you mean by log your car? haha sorry kind of a noob, but learning quickly!

Thanks

[CO AVANT]

Log with real time data while your driving via the vag-com program through Ross-tech. Hooking up a pressure test to find a boost leak is a good place to start. If they can't find one have them check the functions of the N75 valve and Bypass valve. If they don't know what those are I suggest you pay me to do the work

[DenverNoob]

This is the second time I have had the check engine light on up here in Denver. The first time I took it in they hooked up the computer to it and took it for a spin. That when I found out I was running 22psi, or thats what the shop said. Now the light is back on so I am taking it in tomorrow and am just going to have them pressure the system to see if I have a leak.

Does it sound like I am doing the right thing or should I be trying something else?

What do you mean by log your car? haha sorry kind of a noob, but learning quickly!

Thanks

who r u using out of curiosity? im sure here locally in Den we could gtg and take a peak at it. I have VAG-COM and can at least see what codes are being thrown and work backwards from there.

i personally look to hardware first, software second for problems. these cars are very good at compensating for problems, and as long as the CEL isnt flashing you should be OK, just go easy on the car until we can get a look at it.

[sumpsfast]

who r u using out of curiosity? im sure here locally in Den we could gtg and take a peak at it. I have VAG-COM and can at least see what codes are being thrown and work backwards from there.

i personally look to hardware first, software second for problems. these cars are very good at compensating for problems, and as long as the CEL isnt flashing you should be OK, just go easy on the car until we can get a look at it.

Those goons over at Avalon

Specified boost request is 2300mb peak and at just past peak torque WGDC is maxed out through redline. There is a negative deviation between req and actual, apparently throwing a sporadic "boost pressure not reached" fault code. The pressure test will reveal whether a boost leak is causing the turbo to overspin to meet request otherwise steps will be taken to alleviate the issue.

22 psi is a heck of a lot on a K03 of any variety, and because the shaft must spin approx 1% faster per 500 ft elevation, there is no doubt its working its butt off and is out of breath approaching peak power. And yes, absolutely, running 95% duty cycle at 6000 ft is a great way to decrease the life of the turbo...

[DenverNoob]

Those goons over at Avalon

Specified boost request is 2300mb peak and at just past peak torque WGDC is maxed out through redline. There is a negative deviation between req and actual, apparently throwing a sporadic "boost pressure not reached" fault code. The pressure test will reveal whether a boost leak is causing the turbo to overspin to meet request otherwise steps will be taken to alleviate the issue.

22 psi is a heck of a lot on a K03 of any variety, and because the shaft must spin approx 1% faster per 500 ft elevation, there is no doubt its working its butt off and is out of breath approaching peak power. And yes, absolutely, running 95% duty cycle at 6000 ft is a great way to decrease the life of the turbo...

all sounds normal for APR 1+ file from what I have seen. Yes, 2300mb is a lot, but id rather see a log. peak doesn't interest me even a little, because on that turbo it holds for all of about 2 seconds. I have hours of both k03s and k04-15 115 logs showing nothing but negative deviations...just the nature of the beast up here unfortunately on that turbo. takes a tish longer to spin up, then shoots past request to peak, then tapers off close to, but somewhat under request through red-line at max duty cycle.

quick q: where is the range is the underboost code triggering? just out of curiosity


I ran a GIAC 1+ program unaltered with no intercooling upgrade for north of 20k miles and now it lives in another car and is still going strong 2 years later, so I am very confident in the reliability of the k03s turbo. failure rates are actually fairly small on those, even when overstressed. I'm not saying that up here the life couldn't potentially be decreased, and I am also betting there is a little cracking going on in the turbine housing (normal on k03s and k04-15), but an expected life of 10k miles seems excessively low. I honestly think after the hardware issue (assuming there is one...some APR b6 1.8t cars do throw under-boost codes up here...but they aren't harming or hindering anything) is diagnosed, the software will be fine. As much as I personally love GIAC, there are hundreds of 1.8t cars ranging from mk4 jetta to b5 passat to b5 and b6 a4 cars running APR software. B6 1.8t ME7 ECU was and still is one of APR's stronger files that has endured over the course of time....a lot longer then their original craptastic injectors for the 1+ file for sure.

not trying to start a debate or lash out by any means, just giving my .02c

nice to hear from you!

[sumpsfast]

all sounds normal for APR 1+ file from what I have seen. Yes, 2300mb is a lot, but id rather see a log. peak doesn't interest me even a little, because on that turbo it holds for all of about 2 seconds. I have hours of both k03s and k04-15 115 logs showing nothing but negative deviations...just the nature of the beast up here unfortunately on that turbo. takes a tish longer to spin up, then shoots past request to peak, then tapers off close to, but somewhat under request through red-line at max duty cycle.

quick q: where is the range is the underboost code triggering? just out of curiosity

not trying to start a debate or lash out by any means, just giving my .02c

nice to hear from you!

I see your reasoning Ted, its not a big deal. You always ramp up and overshoot until requested is met, at which point wgdc decreases temporarily (presumably) and boost tapers down. There is deviation here all the way through the RPM range after peak boost. Logs or not, if the duty cycle is maxed and the boost pressure ratio is under control it can be maintainable but running at 95% dc and still notably undershooting requested is what it is, boost spike or not. And if there is enough shaft speed at peak boost, damage may be eminent, although I agree that maintaining that speed can drastically increase the likelihood of shaft failure.

Im not saying there is software or hardware issues, just stating what was going on for the sake of clarification and education. I think AZ could use a little myself...

BTW, looks like you are not running the K04 anymore, what happened?

[sumpsfast]

Oh, and the 2300mb was requested, sorry, not actual fwiw.

[DenverNoob]

i wanted a BIG turbo in my car.....hehehehe



as you can see, engine came complete with a razor blade for drug use after running it out!

and yes, this place could use injection of some serious knowledge. you wanna drive yourself crazy in stupidity, stop by the b6 forum....home of more keyboard tuners than anywhere else, and more proposed but untested and undocumented track and 1/4mi times (and 5 page threads about what a car MIGHT do on a dyno).

[Groove1797]

Welcome to my world! I have had the same fault code after switching the N75, boost testing, and endless others attempted fixes. It's the software and APR is full of shit

[sumpsfast]

i wanted a BIG turbo in my car.....hehehehe



as you can see, engine came complete with a razor blade for drug use after running it out!

and yes, this place could use injection of some serious knowledge. you wanna drive yourself crazy in stupidity, stop by the b6 forum....home of more keyboard tuners than anywhere else, and more proposed but untested and undocumented track and 1/4mi times (and 5 page threads about what a car MIGHT do on a dyno).

Oh, I see How do you like that snail? I know relatively nothing of them...

And yes, I cannot tell you how hard it is for me to post here, but like my first 8v MKII (which I now own a clone of) I find it hard to permanently stray. It is a struggle on the model forums though, to the point I completely refrain...

[DenverNoob]

Oh, I see How do you like that snail? I know relatively nothing of them...

And yes, I cannot tell you how hard it is for me to post here, but like my first 8v MKII (which I now own a clone of) I find it hard to permanently stray. It is a struggle on the model forums though, to the point I completely refrain...

shes fast, that's for sure. fastest thing out there, no by no means, but faster that most for sure!

[CO AVANT]

Welcome to my world! I have had the same fault code after switching the N75, boost testing, and endless others attempted fixes. It's the software and APR is full of shit

If that N75 didnt fix it then I'd say it's your software too. I am not a fan of APR k04 software in the least bit.

Ted, stay tuned for what I have up my sleeve in the next few weeks. I honestly think I'll be able to throw out ~400whp UNCORRECTED with what I'm gonna throw at it. Still on a 2871R turbo, but with some wastegate tweaks ; )

[mdzaudi]

If that N75 didnt fix it then I'd say it's your software too. I am not a fan of APR k04 software in the least bit.

Ted, stay tuned for what I have up my sleeve in the next few weeks. I honestly think I'll be able to throw out ~400whp UNCORRECTED with what I'm gonna throw at it. Still on a 2871R turbo, but with some wastegate tweaks ; )

I wouldn't mind another ride in your car once you tweak it a bit. I loved it the last time i rode in it and you said you were slow that day and still needed to adjust with a few things.

ps, forrest still up to do some work?

[CO AVANT]

Forest got a job at Gooding performace/ ultimate coatings on link lane, not sure if he still has that other shop available to him, will have to ask when I go pick up my new IM from them today (getting powder coated). If a lift is not required I can do the work as well FYI.

[DenverNoob]

If that N75 didnt fix it then I'd say it's your software too. I am not a fan of APR k04 software in the least bit.

Ted, stay tuned for what I have up my sleeve in the next few weeks. I honestly think I'll be able to throw out ~400whp UNCORRECTED with what I'm gonna throw at it. Still on a 2871R turbo, but with some wastegate tweaks ; )

sweet! glad to hear yours is really coming together!

lots of things are better since the last time we saw each other at the dyno. The file has really come together, and some hardware changes are coming my way soon plus a few little tweaks! Let me know if you are coming down to put her on the dyno, well make a day out of it! Gotta get back on there now that things are really running better!

[CO AVANT]

yeah should be getting back on the dyno in a couple weeks. Will let you know before I think of setting up a time to run.

[mdzaudi]

Oh yeah thats right. I need a TB job done probably. I don't have time to DIY it or the patience. I'm going to do all the 80k shit myself but i might just drive my other car around for awhile because i'm not a big fan of working on my car in 30 degree weather.

How long do you think it would take to do the TB?

[CO AVANT]

I'd give it 4hrs. I can definitely do that work for you. I have a heated 3 car garage. I'll be able to do that work for you any time after the 15th of Feb...

[mdzaudi]

Alright, i'll be talking to you soon.

[LampyB]

i'm pretty sure the only MTM dealer in colorado is Champagne Motors, and IMO they're full of sh*t. one of the original partners of the shop left to open Salta Motorsports (reputable) in Denver because the remaining partner is a dumbass. I've had several conversations in person with the remaining dumbass about his MTM software in comparison to other companies and each time he lied to my face about all other companies to promote his product. He gave me the whole altitude spiel and told me a lot of untrue things. Not to say MTM isn't an incredible company (because they are), it's just the fact that this guy is a total BS salesman trying to make money.

if it's Champagne, my recommendation is to stay away...there are too many other great shops in Colorado to even bother with them.