new connecting rod design, thought this was neat

[MacDaddy]

Found this in some rice car magazine, pretty cool design if it can maintain the same strength in real life. The manufacturer, Woessner, claims the weight is very similar to that of a titanium counterpart. I checked their website and there is no mention of it yet.



http://www.semadigital.com/netpub/se...21&site=np2008

[jstdoit1112]

GREAT DESIGN .. but i would be worried about the stregth as well

[noclutch]

That would fail at high rpm/hp.

[Sleeeper X]

That would snap in a highboost application. Regardless, whats the point of a fancy rod? Is anyone going to see it? No. Pointless IMHO.

[espo4442]

That would snap in a highboost application. Regardless, whats the point of a fancy rod? Is anyone going to see it? No. Pointless IMHO.

I'm guessing b/c it would be lightweight and therefore less enertia to move the piston=more power?

[RolledMySTi]

I'm guessing b/c it would be lightweight and therefore less enertia to move the piston=more power?

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winnah.

These would be sweet if they could handle the power. I'm a little skeptical, but we will have to see what they are rated for.

[pzp107]

I think that is a good looking design. It seems very strong. You can see the extra support in the ribs and their rounding. I think it would be an awesome rod and lightweight for that cost.

[espo4442]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winnah.

These would be sweet if they could handle the power. I'm a little skeptical, but we will have to see what they are rated for.

Sweet what do I win your k04's?

[RolledMySTi]

Sweet what do I win your k04's?

Nope. My old motor mounts.

[JMTx86]

Don't like them at ALL the motor these would be used for would have to be damn near square other wise the rod will see unequal load and snap on HP aps.

[NYCVR6]

That would snap in a highboost application. Regardless, whats the point of a fancy rod? Is anyone going to see it? No. Pointless IMHO.

What does high boost have to do with a rod failing?


That said, why re-invent the wheel?

[noclutch]

I think that is a good looking design. It seems very strong. You can see the extra support in the ribs and their rounding. I think it would be an awesome rod and lightweight for that cost.

That rod would probably not be any stronger then a factory rod out of almost any production turbo motor.

[sean1.8t]

lol at internet engineers!

what the fuck do you guys know

[noclutch]

Enough to know that the rod isn't designed to hold alot of power.

[ladedruck]

lol at internet engineers!

what the fuck do you guys know

2nd that.
No way you can tell from a picture if it is stronger then a stock rod. What about the Mecharts??

[NogaroSB]

lol at internet engineers!

what the fuck do you guys know

i was hoping that someone would say that. thank you!

[noclutch]

One of you guys should run these then.

[djwimbo]

Don't like them at ALL the motor these would be used for would have to be damn near square other wise the rod will see unequal load and snap on HP aps.

You do realize that most people (not VW/Audi) run over square engines right? Either way I don't see why it wouldn't work. Obviously there had to be some decent amount of research into it before they would even mention it.
EDIT: It might work well for others, just maybe not for our cars, is basically what I was tryin to say.

Look at how a bridge is built and the stresses it sees. The only thing I'd be worried about is the wrist pin support. It doesn't look like it's very well supported, basically, it looks like the rod could collapse on itself under high combustion pressures.

I'd put a set in an LSx in a heartbeat. Those are "cheap" to rebuild, not like a 1.8T, 2.0T, or 2.7T

[noclutch]

The only thing I'd be worried about is the wrist pin support. It doesn't look like it's very well supported, basically, it looks like the rod could collapse on itself under high combustion pressures.

I'd put a set in an LSx in a heartbeat. Those are "cheap" to rebuild, not like a 1.8T, 2.0T, or 2.7T

Same thing down near the big end. Just seeing the rod failures that I have, I can tell that the most stressed areas (near the big and small end) don't have enough support.
The Mecharts pictured above look alot stronger. The cross-section of material near the ends is huge compared to the ones in the first post. There is a difference between trying to make a hollow rod (Mecharts) and an un-symmetrical lightened rod (woessner). It honestly looks like they built those rods to sit in a showroom and look pretty.

[sCeRaXn]

lol at internet engineers!

what the fuck do you guys know

Yea really. Its pretty comical actually...especially for someone with a love for engineering lol

Everyone is bitching about it not holding up to high boost, but i havent seen anything that suggests these rods are for boosted applications. Besides, 95% of rod failures you come across are from detonation or hydrolock. I cant say ive seen very many rods fail from boost alone, not on a street car anyway.

As others have said, you cant judge a rod by looking at it. You dont know the alloy or the forging process used to make the rods. These rods could be made from a much more durable alloy than most, and there are countless amounts of forging processes that could be used to further increase strength. The design itsself has proven to be one of the most durable shapes in engineering. Its one of the few designs that can take as much lateral load as vertical. Bridges, skyscrapers, ships, race cars, and many other incredible feats of engineering rely on this very design.

Dont even assume to know what these rods can or cant do...because we dont have any information on them. Those of you who "know" they are shitty must be psychic.

[noclutch]

The only thing I agree with you on is that we don't know what the intended use is for the rods, I personally don't hink they were built to handle alot of power and started posting here because a few people mentioned that they looked strong.

If you look at what rod manufacturers have been making for the last how many years, many of them are using the strongest alloys and forging tequniques possible for ICE's. This company taking a material which is probably about as strong as what other forged rod are made of, and removing alot of material. Some of the material removed is in known weak points of the rod.

[sCeRaXn]

What...like 4340? Thats the most common alloy you see in forged steel rods, and isnt even close to the strongest alloy that many forgeries deal with on a daily basis. Manley and a few other companies make rods out of what they call "exotic" alloys, which are much stronger than than your typical 4340, but are harder to work with so there made in short batches and are ridiculously expensive. These are the rods that are used in top fuel drageters. The point is that rod companies havent even touched the tip of the iceberg as far as steel and aluminum alloys are concerned, but they havent really had to because what they use works fine. The technology is there for rods like these to be able to hold insane amounts of power. Im not saying these will, but writing it off as not possible seems sort of assinine at this point.

[JMTx86]

You do realize that most people (not VW/Audi) run over square engines right? Either way I don't see why it wouldn't work. Obviously there had to be some decent amount of research into it before they would even mention it.
EDIT: It might work well for others, just maybe not for our cars, is basically what I was tryin to say.

Yes, and it was posted on an audi forum so you do that math. *sigh*

Edit: why would you worry about the wrist pin support? looks fine.

[noclutch]

What...like 4340? Thats the most common alloy you see in forged steel rods, and isnt even close to the strongest alloy that many forgeries deal with on a daily basis. Manley and a few other companies make rods out of what they call "exotic" alloys, which are much stronger than than your typical 4340, but are harder to work with so there made in short batches and are ridiculously expensive. These are the rods that are used in top fuel drageters. The point is that rod companies havent even touched the tip of the iceberg as far as steel and aluminum alloys are concerned, but they havent really had to because what they use works fine. The technology is there for rods like these to be able to hold insane amounts of power. Im not saying these will, but writing it off as not possible seems sort of assinine at this point.

"Exotic" being 300m? Even if this thing was 300M it would not last. Look at how 300M rods are built, exactly like a typical H/I beam rod, if not bigger. 300M is only like 20% stronger then 4340CM

Top fuel dragsters use AL rods.

You're saying the technology and material is out there for rods to hold more power.. Site one example.

[AK1RA07]

Trusses are meant to handle tension and compression loads.. so they'll be fine, in theory.

However, I'd love to see some FEA for this vs an H or I shaped beam to see how the missing material and truss members distribute load..

[noclutch]

Truss's on bridges don't need the extra material, Con rods do.

The comparison you guys are making to bridges is insane.

[S4-ORCE]

FAIL

[AK1RA07]

FAIL

Don't tell the SEMA judges:

SEMA Product Category: Best New Performance-Racing Product

Truss's on bridges don't need the extra material, Con rods do.

The comparison you guys are making to bridges is insane.

Why can't we make this comparison? They have the same basic geometry.. You could make the argument that both are cyclically loaded since the load of cars that passes over a bridge varies over time..

[big_greasy_taco]

There is no way to tell if those are going to fail or not just by looking at some pictures. Only way to tell for sure is to run Finite Element Analysis on them.

[MAKK]

Interesting... I saw them at SEMA and just kept walking, but you never know I suppose...

[AudiA4_20T]

Truss's on bridges don't need the extra material, Con rods do.

The comparison you guys are making to bridges is insane.

where is your info coming from? are you an engineer?

[Castor Troy]

i did stay at a holiday inn express last night

[RenegadeEngr]

You should do you homework before you say either way, there is a lot to think about with this design, just because it is new you won't look smart saying it is gay....

and I am an Engineer......small torsional stresses and triangles are strong at first glance, I can't say anything till I see the FEA analysis, and if you don't know what that is its probably a good thing to figure out before you act like Eddy Engineer

[MacDaddy]

What...like 4340? Thats the most common alloy you see in forged steel rods, and isnt even close to the strongest alloy that many forgeries deal with on a daily basis. Manley and a few other companies make rods out of what they call "exotic" alloys, which are much stronger than than your typical 4340, but are harder to work with so there made in short batches and are ridiculously expensive. These are the rods that are used in top fuel drageters. The point is that rod companies havent even touched the tip of the iceberg as far as steel and aluminum alloys are concerned, but they havent really had to because what they use works fine. The technology is there for rods like these to be able to hold insane amounts of power. Im not saying these will, but writing it off as not possible seems sort of assinine at this point.

allot of good points, Most con rods get their extra strength from adding more material and not by using a stronger material. so using less material and a stronger alloy its not that far fetched for these to perform as well as traditional con rods. Also, this is a new technique and new techniques are rarely cost effective so because it hasn't been done before doesn't automatically mean its because it been tried and won't work, the reason is more likely cost. These look like a feasible alternative to the two latter.

If i ever do build my engine, or another one again i will be looking at these, they look quite promising. Titanium rods are expensive and aluminum rods stretch and would only last about a year on a street car.

[[email protected]]

Wossner makes some pretty nice stuff.

[Wizard-of-OD]

I'm guessing b/c it would be lightweight and therefore less enertia to move the piston=more power?

exactly 3hp gain....

lol at internet engineers!

what the fuck do you guys know

LOL
A course in structural engineering will debunk all these rod failure theories.Very good design but I would have done it differently.Smaller "X" in the design for uniformity and for simply being symetric so that you can fit the Rod either way.

Truss's on bridges don't need the extra material, Con rods do.

Really?

[noclutch]

You should do you homework before you say either way, there is a lot to think about with this design, just because it is new you won't look smart saying it is gay....

and I am an Engineer......small torsional stresses and triangles are strong at first glance, I can't say anything till I see the FEA analysis, and if you don't know what that is its probably a good thing to figure out before you act like Eddy Engineer

I agree we don't have all the facts. I'm just giving my opinion here.
I find it a real stretch that this company designed a steel rod with that much less material that can hang with a known quality steel rod. I didn't see anything else they made that was groundbreaking in the way of con rods, just some H-beams on their site.

[RenegadeEngr]

I agree we don't have all the facts. I'm just giving my opinion here.
I find it a real stretch that this company designed a steel rod with that much less material that can hang with a known quality steel rod. I didn't see anything else they made that was groundbreaking in the way of con rods, just some H-beams on their site.

No Worries, with all of the Chinese shit we see that is new and innovative, but eventually blows up our motors it is hard to trust new ideas....

[sCeRaXn]

An FEA would be great, but i doubt anyone would take the time to come up with one on their own. Im sure the manufacturer has all the info needed, but we all know that an FEA can be skewed to give more favorable results by simply tweaking certian parts of the FEM. Look at the whole Hyundai crash test ordeal in the mid-90's...a few tweaked numbers and they almost lied their way to a 5 star frontal crash rating. Skunk2 did basically the same thing when they introduced their first valves for the b series. If the manufacturer had a credible 3rd party analysis done, then i wouldnt be so quick to write it off.

Like i said before...nobody knows how these will really perform because we know nothing about them. However, i still stand by my statement that the technology is there to make this rod. I dont know if it would be economically feasable, but i think its definitely possible. Im not an engineer, but i did wastefully take 2yrs worth of eng classes and picked up alot of stuff while working in Bill Davis Racing's Engine Building Program(Triad Race Development now). Im sure some of you guys will know much better than i, but these are my opinions on it.

[noclutch]

Truss's work well in a wide open design, like a bridge. Instead of using x amount of material to make a solid beam, they use x amount of material to make a truss which takes up more space. Obviously using the same amount of material (or close to it) to make a truss designed con-rod would end up taking up far too much space in the engine. I, along with a few people I've shown this to with a lot more experience designing engine internals then me, feel that this rod simply doesn't have enough material to withstand the loads associated with a performance engine.

Like I said, I have a feeling that these are built for either looks or low power.

This is all just my opinion.