Tial 44mm WG - open dump, where to route flamethrower

[JK35]

I'm working on my turbo manifold today and just realized that I hadn't put any consideration into the routing of the screamer pipe. I have a nice merge into the 10 deg. collector but need a plan as for where to dump the wastegate discharge. The only open dump WG I've had was on a balls to the wall DSM, and it had a tendency to behave like a flamethrower. is that what I should expect out of my B5?
The setup is tial/Garrett full V-band GT3076R on an equl length tubular header and into 3" straight exhaust, low-z 750cc inj., A1000 Fuel Pump AN lines throughout, fully forged bottom end, meth injection, direct port multi stage nitrous, Megasquirt II v3.0 EMS running batch fire fuel and sequential fire COP ignition. -I intend to run 25+psi...

SO... as for the wastegate dump... any suggestions on where to route the discharge pipe so as to avoid flambe' -ing things?

[ghost6303]

ive had this image as my desktop for a while, i just thought it was a really nice pic of recirculating the wg. sorry if i stole it from someone, i cant remember where it came from.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../car/welds.jpg

if thats too much work for you, i think most people just dump it strait down under the car, i havnt seen many videos of flaming dump tubes on Audis

[kovalevandrew]

Dump it into the exhaust.

[ghost6303]

GT3076R on an equl length tubular header and into 3" straight exhaust, low-z 750cc inj, meth injection, direct port multi stage nitrous

i think 750cc injectors might be marginal for a setup like that. ive yet to see anyone with a 30 series turbo ontop of nitrous and water/meth, i would love to see videos when/if its finished.

[Poopie]

sounds very aggressive. I ran my wastegate dump along with exhaust and exited down behind the driveshaft output flange.

[JK35]

This pic shows the gate on the mockup manifold and with the dump pipe routed up-curved back/over and out through the plastic fenderwell liner. this would discharge the wastegate through the gap between the tire/fender. I don't want to flambe' my car or any parts of it, which is why I'm asking whether or not this is a feasible option...


this pic is of the gate "on" the mockup manifold, and with dump pipe routing straight down at the ground in front of the pass front tire/towards the inside of the wheel (more-less under the car) this puts the dump pipe in very close proximity to the compressor discharge piping...

[Poopie]

just dump the discharge with a turn down so its as low as possible. i had a ton of miles on my old car and never had any issues with the flames. And yes, on high boost there will be flames when the egts get hot.

[pac1085]

here's where mine dumps...



Hey, you know that megasquirt2 3.0 doesn't like low impedance injectors without a tricky fix, right? should probably use resistors. i had a hell of a time running my car on low-z injectors until someone discovered that the hardware is bugged...happily running hi-z 630's now, even though they are on the small side.

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=28178

Good luck with the sequential COP. I haven't bothered to try it yet, since people reported very long cranking times. Just sticking with wasted spark for now.

Any plans for idle control?

[JK35]

OK, so through the fenderwell liner is probably a bad idea then... I think I can make room for the dump tube AND the compressor discharge pipe through the triangle shaped opening right next to the A/C dryer.

I have another concern though... the ANGLE at which I come off of the collector, and the length of the pipe from the collector to the wastegate. -most that I see are right on the collector (and most are just a hole cut into the collector with the WG flange welded on)
Garrett's site suggests that 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees will result in a 50% or greater loss in wastegate performance. I have room to come off the collector at a 45. I'd like to make a 2" extension tube that pushes the gate away from the collector a bit. Is there anything wrong with doing this?

[JK35]

Hey, you know that megasquirt2 3.0 doesn't like low impedance injectors without a tricky fix, right? should probably use resistors. i had a hell of a time running my car on low-z injectors until someone discovered that the hardware is bugged...happily running hi-z 630's now, even though they are on the small side.



Good luck with the sequential COP. I haven't bothered to try it yet, since people reported very long cranking times. Just sticking with wasted spark for now.

Any plans for idle control?

I'm using a jbperf peak and hold board for the low-z squirters. thanks for the "good luck" -I'm going to need it! if it's too much trouble, I'll probably run wasted spark until I can get the sequential COP working (no nitrous on wasted spark obviously)
I have a TIP120 kit from DIYautotune, so hopefully I'll have PWM idle working. I am having trouble getting firmware/megatune versions loaded and configured. I am running through the serial port on my desktop, but I go in to setup the parameters (device manager, communications>COM1> and I finally get to advanced settings (where I'm supposed to set transmit and receive as slow as the sliders will go... and my PC keeps throwing up a message telling me I don't have permission to access the advanced settings. I went in as administrator in safe mode and switched every box to full permission, and try it again -still no go -same frustrating message. And without changing these settings, I'm not able to get firmware/meagtune synced up and working.

SO! I put a sheet over my electronics bench and started in on the manifold/exhaust

I could REALLY use some help with the Megasquirt though. -PM'd ya

[bassed]

If you do route it out so the flames are visible do so like this....Poop's remember seeing this?



Mine is just a straight dump, it's been extended since this though. I don't get to see flames cause they're under the car.

[Das General]

You can't see under your car while driving?

[bassed]

You can't see under your car while driving?

Only the 50% of the time I have my head under and my feet out the sunroof. Usually when I get back up-right I get all kinds of weird looks, so I limit that and ghost riding he W.I.P. these days.

[pac1085]

next time you blow out your floor board bolts, take a look and see if you can spot any of the flames?

[California Jay]

OP... I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself. I would suggest, that unless you have metal bends that match the pvc pipe you are mocking up with, build one thing at a time... mocking up the whole assembly like you have is time better put elsewhere. Plus you may get into doing things more than once the way you are going. If you track the car a lot dumping the wg infront of the tire would be ill advised, you would be surprised how the exhaust can effect traction.

[B5A4Kevin]

next time you blow out your floor board bolts, take a look and see if you can spot any of the flames?

everyone knows this is a dsm issue, but only when you paint your eclipse lime green. the paint also makes you need to shift 8 times in a 1/4 mile run.

[Poopie]

If you do route it out so the flames are visible do so like this....Poop's remember seeing this?



Mine is just a straight dump, it's been extended since this though. I don't get to see flames cause they're under the car.

yeah i remember. that car was awesome. I wanted to do something similar but oh well. Too ambitious. Just keep it simple.

I didn't even notice all that stuff was mocked up with PVC

[JK35]

actually, the floor pan problems are a result of granny shifting instead of double clutching... I thought everyone knew that

here's the 304 stainless:





as for the collector, I'm about to (attempt) to drill it with a bimetal holesaw



the tape-fit-tack routine didn't work so well for me, so I improvised:




The collar clamps hold the bends together absolutely flush and tight while allowing all the pieces to rotate. 3-4 bends have an amazing range of articulation, and I have been able to design an absolutely identical length manifold (not so important for this turbo, but has a unique sound and it's good to have should I ever want to try a twin scroll / divided turbo.

Here's the mockup on the engine


I have a question for ya'll... other than sounding utterly obnoxious (which I personally like) is there any advantage to dumping the wastegate into the open atmosphere as opposed to dumping it into the exhaust? I'm fabricating a 3" straight exhaust into a Borla and then into an AeroTurbine (one at a time, going to try each out and see which I like best)
I'm just guesing that dumping the gate back into the exhaust would make very little difference in terms of performance.

sound and cool factor though... I'm pretty sure I want my screamer pipe to scream

[JK35]

The little clamp collars are simple enough, they are fabricated out of PVC on the bandsaw, and they are applied/cinched tight with plain jane electrical tape (amazingly tight with just 2-3 wraps)
the machine screws that stick out are lashed by rubber bands to draw each scection tightly together while the intermediate collars are there to flush up and align each joint.
the entire runner is like a big flex-shaft which can be manipulated and articulated with complete accuracy. through this system, there are no cuts needed on any of the bends, only a couple small (.625" - 2.0") straight sections.
again, each runner is absolutely identical in length, and there are no "kinks" or out of fitment merges.

the collector here is a whopping 10 degrees to work right with my Tial full V-band turbine housing (as per recommendation of ATP and Tial themselves)
Tial V-band flanges are proprietary and consequently quite spendy, BUT, they are a work of machining art. -the flanges go together on the housing as if there were a magnet drawing the grooved flanges into perfect fitment.


If anyone here would like to use my clamping system, hit me up. I'll only need the fixtures this once, and they were quite inexpensive to make...

[Euro-Tuner]

isnt the collector a little small, looks too small to fit to a t3 flange to me....unless your cutting it down

[JK35]

isnt the collector a little small, looks too small to fit to a t3 flange to me....unless your cutting it down

it's fitted (exactly) to a Tial V-band flange -Tial Garrett GT3076R

[[email protected]]

I dumped the wastegate right behind the engine block and it was fun for a while until I realized the noise it made just attracted the wrong type of attention from the police.

I have since had a 18" muffler installed and the rumble it makes when it dumps now is great.

[AudiA4_20T]

actually, the floor pan problems are a result of granny shifting instead of double clutching... I thought everyone knew that

here's the 304 stainless:





as for the collector, I'm about to (attempt) to drill it with a bimetal holesaw



the tape-fit-tack routine didn't work so well for me, so I improvised:




The collar clamps hold the bends together absolutely flush and tight while allowing all the pieces to rotate. 3-4 bends have an amazing range of articulation, and I have been able to design an absolutely identical length manifold (not so important for this turbo, but has a unique sound and it's good to have should I ever want to try a twin scroll / divided turbo.

Here's the mockup on the engine


I have a question for ya'll... other than sounding utterly obnoxious (which I personally like) is there any advantage to dumping the wastegate into the open atmosphere as opposed to dumping it into the exhaust? I'm fabricating a 3" straight exhaust into a Borla and then into an AeroTurbine (one at a time, going to try each out and see which I like best)
I'm just guesing that dumping the gate back into the exhaust would make very little difference in terms of performance.

sound and cool factor though... I'm pretty sure I want my screamer pipe to scream

Instead of having 3" to dump your exhaust out, you now have 4" when it really counts (when you hit boost)... Every car I've ridden in with an open dump, as soon as it opens up, you can feel the extra power. Obviously that sounds dumb because of course the boost is making the power, but the fact that your adding more ways for the exhaust to escape is good, better flow

[JK35]

I dumped the wastegate right behind the engine block and it was fun for a while until I realized the noise it made just attracted the wrong type of attention from the police.

I have since had a 18" muffler installed and the rumble it makes when it dumps now is great.

muffler on the dump tube or... you merged the dump into the exhaust system (which has an 18" muffler) ???



Well... last accomplishment (up well past any reasonable bedtime again on a work night ) I picked up a few 1-7/8" "Irwin" bimetal holesaws off the clearance rack at Northern Tool -Northern tool used to be Northern Hydraulic, it's a step up from Harbor freight... The pilot bit took a month of Sunday's to chew through the collector right on one of the welds of course but once the fresh holesaw bit in, it was all over in short order. As I mentioed earlier, I had read on Garrett's website, that wastegates should be set at a 45 degre angle off the collector. as I fit the 45 degree stub up to the hole (which still needs a bit more elongation) I'm wondering how it's going to pick up an even amount of pulse from all 4 cylinders?

Off the top of my head, it appears to me that the sharp merge in the center of the collector might be better off ground down a good bit, and rounded / blended over

Basically, Cylinders 1 and 4 will dump out the gate effortlessly, while cylinders 2 and 3 might not flow out through the gate as well. anyone experienced blow by on half of their cylinders, or any derogatory (potentially wastegate related) issues on 2 cylinders, but not on the other two?
Like I said, I'm going off what I read on Garrett's site here: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...imization.html


copy-paste from half way down their page under the topic on wastegates...
"Connection to the manifold greatly affects flow capability, and correct orientation of the wastegate to the manifold is essential. For example, placing the wastegate at 90° to the manifold will reduce flow capacity by up to 50%! This greatly reduces the control that you have over the system and puts your entire drivetrain at risk. Instead, the ideal connection is at 45° with a smooth transition. "
then there's a thumbnail pic of a collector going into a "Y" -one leg goes to their gate, the other to the turbo.
-this wasn't feasible for my setup, nor most of the manifolds out there. 034's, Full Race's and nearly every tube header I've found has the gate coming right off the collector at a 90...
Anyone have any thoughts / suggestions on how to finish off the WG to collector merge?

[[email protected]]

I have a separate muffler connected to the dump tube. Looks like an exhaust for a Mini Cooper.






and here is a pic of the wastegate/collector merge on my header