Kinda Stuck on a project of mine

[Borden]

Well i got a bunch of money from x-mas and decided to start saving for an engine swap..out with the boring 2.8 and in with well not to sure yet cant decide between the S4 2.7TT or the VR6 24v which is a 3.2L(correct?)

Ive done research but i cant seem to find the pro's and con's of each engine...my project will aim for 650-700 ft/lbs of torque hp..what ever comes about mainly looking for torque

sorry for the newbie question i just unsure of the pro's and con's...yes i did a search but i am horrible at searches on the zine

[Spykce]

The 3.2 VR6 is out of an R32 if I remember right. The GTI VR6 is a 2.8. However both are mounted laterally so special mounting is going to be needed. However I would do a VR6.

The sound and power band are awesome in it. Obviously a 2.7TT will be stronger stock I would imagine anyways and have more options but the VR6 has many options available to it. All in what you want. If I had the time, money and talent to do a VR6 swap I would in a heart beat.

[D's Avant]

I would keep things simple a go with a supercharger kit or just find a S4.

Taking things to the next level and building something cool and thus expensive a VR6 would be fun and sound awesome. That would be a ton of work. Your money, your call. Take a look at 034 Motorsports time attack car for some inspiration. That car is fast...

[B5Quattro190]

I would keep things simple a go with a supercharger kit or just find a S4.

Taking things to the next level and building something cool and thus expensive a VR6 would be fun and sound awesome. That would be a ton of work. Your money, your call. Take a look at 034 Motorsports time attack car for some inspiration. That car is fast...

My exact thoughts on this as well, though my intentions are not to discourage you from whatever it is you plan on doing with the car. The VR6 has more potential over the 30v 2.8 that's in our b5s, since you can go either way with them and the 30v in ours isn't really built for modding though you can drop a supercharger into it and gain a substantial amount of horsepower. If you're looking to save money and get the most that you can, I'd suggest a GIAC Chip, Supercharger, Full Catback exhaust if you haven't already, and a cold air intake as starters..goodluck with again whatever it is you decide to do!

[Borden]

So far the vote is for a VR6 Swap, I have plans to weld up my own 3" down pipes to a 2.25" exhaust or something there about, but at the same time im not sure i wanna spend that money if im going to get rid of the engine anyways. I have realized that the engine needs new mounts and that 034 sells all the pieces necessary to swap in a VR6

I would keep things simple a go with a supercharger kit or just find a S4.

Taking things to the next level and building something cool and thus expensive a VR6 would be fun and sound awesome. That would be a ton of work. Your money, your call. Take a look at 034 Motorsports time attack car for some inspiration. That car is fast...

just saw the video of the 034 motorsport time attack and to quote Jeremy Clarkson, " I want that in my life"

[black00A4]

Just rebuild your 2.8 and then supercharge it.

[Kyle H]

To hit that power level expect to spend at least $10,000....

[Borden]

i realize to hit that power level im gonna have to drop some serrious cash

[flynnr]

i think you should go that route : )


*creamed myself when i looked at those pics again*

[le91688]

has anyone been able to do the VR6 swap besides 034?

[Kyle H]

What kind of power curve do you want? Do you want a lot of low end power or do you want a bunch of power up top with little down in the low rpms?

My vote would be to basically replicate the 034 time attack car and go with a 24v VR6, build it to rev high, throw an HTA35r or comparably sized Bullseye turbo on it, use the 034 IIc ecu to have a race gas file and pump file.. you'll need to figure out a transmission that can handle the power and a serious clutch....

That would be a MONSTER car.

[B5A4Kevin]

the 24v vr6 is a 3.2l transverse mounted v6. it was available in the r32, as well as the 3.2l mk1 tt q dsg, and i believe also the limited production VW beetle RSi.

my vote would be to swap a 12v vr6 as it is a much more common and thus, available powerplant. the money you save going 12v vs 24v can be applied to a BAT setup (vr6t). this is the engine used in the 034 time attack car. talk to issam. since they have already done it, they can help shed light on various issues with the swap (mounts, fueling and ignition system, tach, etc). im not sure if the 24v head bolts up to the 12v but i assume that it doesnt. either way the vr6 is definetly up for the challenge.

[Borden]

What kind of power curve do you want? Do you want a lot of low end power or do you want a bunch of power up top with little down in the low rpms?

My vote would be to basically replicate the 034 time attack car and go with a 24v VR6, build it to rev high, throw an HTA35r or comparably sized Bullseye turbo on it, use the 034 IIc ecu to have a race gas file and pump file.. you'll need to figure out a transmission that can handle the power and a serious clutch....

That would be a MONSTER car.

I am aiming for more low end power rather than high end power

Flynnr..i need to change my pants now wow!

[djwimbo]

Well i got a bunch of money from x-mas and decided to start saving for an engine swap..out with the boring 2.8 and in with well not to sure yet cant decide between the S4 2.7TT or the VR6 24v which is a 3.2L(correct?)

Ive done research but i cant seem to find the pro's and con's of each engine...my project will aim for 650-700 ft/lbs of torque hp..what ever comes about mainly looking for torque

sorry for the newbie question i just unsure of the pro's and con's...yes i did a search but i am horrible at searches on the zine

650bhp can be made on an almost stock 2.7T bottom end, that's not power at the wheels though, that's at the crank. Look into the Tial R650 or comparable packages if you want to go that route.

However, being a firm believer that the 2.7T is less than ideal for building as a powerhouse, I'd recommend the 2.8L VR6. You can put the R32 24V head on and there's plenty of turbo manifolds, tuning, and parts backing.
As far as I know, or have heard, after 034 built their Time Attack car there was a limited production of the parts needed to swap the engine into the B5 chassis. I believe 5 "kits" were made, and it included the custom starter, mounts, etc. To the best of my knowledge all 5 were sold, but I'm sure somebody may know differently, or would be more credible.

I don't want to start the argument over the 3.2L bottom end or the 2.8L bottom end, but if it was my decision to make, the 2.8L bottom end would be my starting point.
2.9-2.9L is all you will ever need to make the power you desire, both reliably and a very usable power curve.

Unfortunately I don't believe there's a twin scroll manifold available for the VR6/B5 chassis swap. If there was I would go that route. I'm a believer in twin scroll more and more everyday.

If you're looking to build 650-700HP at the wheels, you would need ~850 at the crank. You're looking at a BullsEye S300 series, Precision PT72, Garrett GT4xxx, etc turbos.

Depending on what you have available for fabrication and what you can do yourself, you're looking at probably $3K just to get the engine mounted, starter, trans mounts, subframe madifications, etc. $4K in a turbo, manifold, downpipe and oil/coolant lines, $5K+ engine - built head(cams, lifters, valves, springs, porting, etc), fully balanced internals (aftermarket rods, pistons, and probably a stock crank modified). That wouldn't include your clutch, flywheel, axles, fittings, lines, coolers, oil filter relocation, downpipe back exhaust, upgraded brakes so slow that thing down, high volume electric fans + controller, Standalone engine management + tuning, gauges, air intake setup, or gaskets.

I'm sure I forgot something in there.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[djwimbo]

I am aiming for more low end power rather than high end power

If you're looking for low end power in the 650-700HP/TQ range you're not going to get it out of a 6cyl unless it's coupled with a supercharger properly sized for your goals. And to be honest I don't think you can hit 600bhp easily on a supercharged 6cyl and maintain low end power.

Here's my suggestion.
LSx Adapter plate to 01E transmission

You get that guy to make another adapter plate and I'll build you a 600+HP LSx to bolt up to it.
Problem #1 you're still not going to have a ton of low end power without shelling out the big dollars for big cubic inches.

What power numbers do you want at what RPM?

[mainer0311]

has anyone been able to do the VR6 swap besides 034?

A good friend of mine swapped a vr into his audi 90. He has it running and driving with an hx35 bolted to the exhaust manifold. He used 034's tranny adapter and starter, most of the rest he built himself, the motor mounts and all. With the 90 you don't have cut the rad support like you do in the a4's.

Cooper

[Borden]

If you're looking for low end power in the 650-700HP/TQ range you're not going to get it out of a 6cyl unless it's coupled with a supercharger properly sized for your goals. And to be honest I don't think you can hit 600bhp easily on a supercharged 6cyl and maintain low end power.

Here's my suggestion.
LSx Adapter plate to 01E transmission

You get that guy to make another adapter plate and I'll build you a 600+HP LSx to bolt up to it.
Problem #1 you're still not going to have a ton of low end power without shelling out the big dollars for big cubic inches.

What power numbers do you want at what RPM?

Im looking for the tq band to start at around 3000rpm(to possibly 4000 but that is pretty high in my book) it can carry up to w/e it needs if that's not feasible then ill work with what ever is

[djwimbo]

Im looking for the tq band to start at around 3000rpm(to possibly 4000 but that is pretty high in my book) it can carry up to w/e it needs if that's not feasible then ill work with what ever is

for the displacement the VW/Audi community has to offer, full torque at 3000rpm and as much as you want isn't going to happen very easily.
4000rpm on a VR6-T is where the numbers start to really take off.

You have to remember, if you gear ratios are well set up, you only see the spectrum of 3000-4000rpm once. Shifting a A4 5sp, S4 6sp, or most other transmissions, you will stay above 4300rpm if you're shifting at 6500rpm. A built VR6-T will spin higher than that, which will pull the RPM up higher after the shift.

[B5A4Kevin]

ive said it before n ill say it again: "vr6t ftmfw"

[Borden]

I can live with that my next question is what transmission to use? should i keep my 2.8 tranny? or should i get a S4 tranny and hardware and swap that in as well i do love a 6 speed

[djwimbo]

I can live with that my next question is what transmission to use? should i keep my 2.8 tranny? or should i get a S4 tranny and hardware and swap that in as well i do love a 6 speed

Since you already have a V6, the S4 trans mounts up to the same ones you already have. You should upgrade the mounts to something like the "density line" from 034MS, but the actual dimensions and style are identical. The difference is in the subframe between the S4/V6-A4 and the 4cyl A4.

6sp > 5sp.

[Borden]

Thanks for all your help guys and clearing up some problems, exp djwimbo.
for clarification i should get a

12v VR6/and mounting hardware
BAT
S4 tranny+ new mounts
Fueling
Bigger Breaks
making the tach work and any other misc things

[le91688]

2.8 Supercharged is where its at.

[mikevets68]

i think you should go that route : )


*creamed myself when i looked at those pics again*

Holy sh**T that Turbo makes my little OEM turbo look like a dust particle! lol

[djwimbo]

Thanks for all your help guys and clearing up some problems, exp djwimbo.
for clarification i should get a

12v VR6/and mounting hardware
BAT
S4 tranny+ new mounts
Fueling
Bigger Breaks
making the tach work and any other misc things

The 12V VR6 will be the cheapest option and can actually make some pretty damn good numbers on the stock bottom end. You can pick 'em up at almost any junk yard or VW parts recyclers.
The 24V head or the R32 24V head would just allow for more flow and more power.

But basically, yes, you're on the right track. Just don't forget about all the "little" things, like a clutch, hardware, fittings, etc.
I will mention that the 034MS VR-T A4 is using a stock A4 man trans radiator and it's working just fine.

[onemoremile]

The 24v VR6 head flows way more than the 12v. It is so good stock that it isn't worth the expense to port and polish it on a street engine.

2.0 or 3.0 would be great but 2.8 liters is also fine. Because of the larger displacement you can run a larger exhaust a/r which will help make more top end power too. A twin scroll will help make the powerband wider which gives you the best of both worlds.

There are a variety of VR6 turbo manifolds available but I don't know which would fit the A4 engine bay.

I've owned a VR6 and loved it. I would rather have a 172hp naturally aspirated VR6 in my Avant than the 240hp K04 1.8t that is in it now. I've also experienced VR6 turbo power and it is verrrrry nice indeed.

[317ssayzarc]

I will be swapping a VR5 or VR6 into my A4 in the next year. I'm also located near you, you should swing by my shop and check out some of the cool B5 motor swap/builds I have going on

[djwimbo]

I will be swapping a VR5 or VR6 into my A4 in the next year. I'm also located near you, you should swing by my shop and check out some of the cool B5 motor swap/builds I have going on

and send me pictures. b/c I'm jealous

[Borden]

I will be swapping a VR5 or VR6 into my A4 in the next year. I'm also located near you, you should swing by my shop and check out some of the cool B5 motor swap/builds I have going on

Heck yea man that would be sweet i feel like my pocket book is gonna hurt but it will be sooo worth it in the end

where are you guys located and ill stop by some time

[onemoremile]

I will be swapping a VR5 or VR6 into my A4 in the next year. I'm also located near you, you should swing by my shop and check out some of the cool B5 motor swap/builds I have going on

I'll send you an extra DO WERK license plate in return for some royalty checks.....

[317ssayzarc]

Heck yea man that would be sweet i feel like my pocket book is gonna hurt but it will be sooo worth it in the end

where are you guys located and ill stop by some time

Send me a pm with your number, I work strange hours (when I want lol)... I'll arrange a nice lil tour

[Nebone]

First visit is a tour then you need to do work in that shop :)

[djwimbo]

First visit is a tour then you need to do work in that shop :)

I'll work at his shop, but I don't want to move to RI.

[317ssayzarc]

You guys crack me up...

Much love guys

[erode]

A noob looking for 700hp or lb-ft of torque and still hasn't decided on an engine!

Very ambitious. I assume you are simply throwing wads of benjamins at this project and it's not a homebrew.

[A4Rob]

Lets see a 2.7T with dual 35R's

[anmagro]

I love reading about these VR6 swap threads because they give me great incentive to keep my 2.8 in hopes of either going through with the supercharger or actually doing the swap. with 113,000 on my clock and the next 4 years of college to keep the car, its nice to know i can put cash into the other aspects of the A4 knowing a better power plant is possible. I have the mod bug in a 2.8 30V with plenty of time on my hands! ha! I think the VR6 would be a great powerplant for what you are doing. One of my friends has a 12v VR6 and the thing hauls azz. Not sure what turbo, but hes pushin 400whp on the thing. What are some prices for a good used Vr6 these days anyway? My friend grabed his from an old lady partin out her car for dirt cheap.. lol

[t1demont1]

Lets see a 2.7T with dual 35R's

talk about never spooling...

[317ssayzarc]

Lets see a 2.7T with dual 35R's

At your request Rob

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20624

[Tiluleshpingen]

ohhh boy u have no idea what goes on into swapp