Bad Oil Change or Coincidental Knocking?

[Eris]

I recently had an oil change at one of those in & out places which I won't mention here. A few days later, whenever I start my engine and whenever I'm idling I here a tapping. It does increase when I accelerate however when I'm driving it is either happening so quickly I can't hear it or the noise stops.

Before I decided to call anyone about it, I remember that the guy actually performing the oil change didn't quite know how much oil goes into a 3.0 and kept filling it until he thought the dipstick showed the correct amount. Then I was off on my way. A couple days later I turn on the engine after about a night's worth of parking and the engine is making this tapping sound. It was as if I needed to add oil, like a lifter tap noise. A day goes by, and it still makes this noise, so I park it and leave it for about an hour so that I can check the oil. The oil was past the little ball on the dipstick (A line) and I know that is a problem since there are all these warnings about it in the manual and right on the engine not to overfill the engine with oil.

I immediately call up the shop where I had it done, he tells me to bring it to the nearest service station which is right near my apartment, thankfully. The guys inside the service station hear the noise as it comes in and are amazed that a 2002 is making that noise. So one of the workers comes by to perform an oil change and starts asking questions about the type of oil that was put in. I tell him it's always been synthetic to my knowledge. So here begins the thousand diagnoses I received about what was causing the problem and hence I'm bringing it to my mechanic tomorrow morning.

I heard it could be that the original oil change guy put in the wrong oil or used real oil instead of synthetic. Then another guy said that it could be the timing spring, another said it could be a rocker arm and then other said it sounded like the lifter taps were hitting the top of the cover.

Basically, could this have happened from a simple oil change? And if so, what is going on with my car?

I was reading through this site for possible answers and I got anything from a simple engine flush all the way to a busted piston and am a little anxious as to what the diagnosis will be. Maybe someone out there has had a similar problem or a problem with an oil change place causing problems?

Help an Audi sister out!

[Mike02A4]

Sounds way too low. Check it after its been sitting over night and add as needed. Or better yet, drain it all out and do another change with the proper amount yourself. I dont know how much the V6 takes but I think its 6 quarts. Do not drive it anymore til its refilled!

[Rau]

Sounds way too low. Check it after its been sitting over night and add as needed. Or better yet, drain it all out and do another change with the proper amount yourself. I dont know how much the V6 takes but I think its 6 quarts. Do not drive it anymore til its refilled!

correct! the original oil change, the guy shorted on the amount he was suposed to put in

[Eris]

Oh wait, I should have specified which bulb I'm talking about. It's the top bulb past the A line. Not the end of the dipstick. When I read the dipstick it was well past the A line and seemed to be overfull. I originally thought I needed oil because of the sound it was making, but it was the opposite, there was WAY too much oil inside.

But still, my beast is going into the shop because both my father (a car nerd) and my mechanic (another obvious car nerd) don't like the chronology of the events: i.e. you get an oil change one day and the next day the engine is tapping or "knocking" as the oil change guys said.

[Affinitive]

The 3.0 lite takes a little shy of 7 liters of oil (liters and quarts are real close to the same amount). What your describing sounds more like the typical problem of the 1.8T's. What happens is that the engines develop sludge build up all throughout the engine and when the oil is changed, especially when suddenly switching to full synthetic on engines which have been getting poorly serviced with syn-blend oil, is that a lot of the sludge will rather suddenly start wash down and settle to the bottom of the oil pan and starrt clogging up the oil pump pick-up screen stave the engine of oil. Most all Audi/VW engines requie pretty high oil pressure even at idle to keep the lifter fom making noise. Also, unfortunately the 3.0's are also known fo wearing cam lobes flat when they don't get the proper synthetic oil in them.
Unfortunately I see a fair share of 1.8T's and 3.0's where shops only use syn-blend oil and then people still go 10,000 miles between services and sludging poblems strrat to crop up. It sucks because people think they're taking care of their car but getting fvcked by cheap skate shops.............that's another debate though.

I would start by varifying service recods to know what type of oil it's been getting. Varify it has the correct filter on it and probably let the engine warrm and drain the oil out for at least a couple of hours and refill with the poper oil and filter and see if it improves. If not, then it's time to start checking the actual oil pressure and disassembling the engine to inspect for sludge and damage. Pulling the lower oil pan is quick and easy. If it does lots of sludge build up in the pan, it may very well have started wearing some cam lobes flat already.....hope not

Just for info, the engine should be able to maintain good oil pressure with as little as 3 liters or quarts. Obviously it's not good to drive around much with that little oil in it though. I believe the low oil level warning turns on at about 2 - 2.5 quats low.

Good luck. Hope all turns out well.

C

[Affinitive]

sorry, the r button on this new keyboardr don't wok too good

C

[dirtybrd]

Then another guy said that it could be the timing spring, another said it could be a rocker arm and then other said it sounded like the lifter taps were hitting the top of the cover.

Timing spring, rocker arm? WTF are these guys talking about. They remind me of when cars get dropped off by tow truck drivers and they get you their diagnosis. Idiots!

[Eris]

Timing spring, rocker arm? WTF are these guys talking about. They remind me of when cars get dropped off by tow truck drivers and they get you their diagnosis. Idiots!

That's what I was thinking as well, but I'm not the best when it gets to serious technical engine talk so they must have saw me turn pale and went in for the kill.

I'm thinking that it's probably engine sludge because, I must confess, I missed my last oil change by about 2000 miles or so. And with the way I drive, I'm hoping I haven't caused any further damage as Affinitive has described.

[[email protected]]

What weight oil did they use?

I had this crazy annoying rattle come from the back of my engine and when I changed the oil from the 10w40 I was running (ran thicker oil to get rid of the lifter tick) back to the 5w40 the noise reduced 90% and I'm going to try a 0w40 next to see if that changes anything.

I'm wondering if the thicker oil caused the oil pressure levels to be higher than normal and caused parts to rattle.

[Eris]

I dropped it off to my mechanic today and he's going to come up with a diagnosis. From it sounds like to him it's a "top end" problem so most likely a valve or possibly a rocker arm like one of the customer's at the oil change place had mentioned. If he can't do the work then they'll be towing it to the Audi dealer since they don't want me driving it.

So I will wait and see what happens next.

[Eris]

My mechanic says that he's pretty sure it's an issue with the cam shaft, so because it's something with the engine, I'm now talking with a local Audi dealer about servicing it.

So how much do you think this will cost?

Or maybe I should just order the part and have a reputable Audi "friend" do it?

[Eris]

Awesome, I just got confirmation that this issue may be in one of the TSB's that came out this year from Audi, TSB 150803.

It may be one of the cam lobes or the follower. YAY I have potential answers!!

[Roy munson]

Rocker arm? If its a rocker arm then it must be just laying in the valve cover. Maybe someone dropped it in there.

[Eris]

After everything, it is one of the camshafts. The lobes have worn down and are beginning to wear holes in the lifters, as described by one of the Audi tech. up at the dealership near my job.

I'm probably going to have my car towed to a friend's garage where he can do the work a lot cheaper, Audi has the work quoted as being $2950, minus storage fees and such since they feel bad for me.

So, all said and done, we'll see what this guy will end up charging me and hopefully I can save some money.

Thanks for all the help you guys, you definitely had some good and valid points to bring up.

[Papachristou]

there has been a couple 3.0s on here and i saw 3 posts on audiforums where a 3.0 self destructed itself with this exact same thing. one of the rear lobes wears down and eventually gives out. im suprised audi doesnt have something covering this as much as its happened

[Eris]

Another weird thing is that there appeared to be no error codes that came up when the Audi service guy checked out the car. You'd think that if the car dash cries at you because it needs windshield washer fluid, that it would scream bloody murder if there's a piston misfiring or the cam is punching a hole through the lifter. Isn't that the reason why there are cam position sensors?

[Frey7190]

Another weird thing is that there appeared to be no error codes that came up when the Audi service guy checked out the car. You'd think that if the car dash cries at you because it needs windshield washer fluid, that it would scream bloody murder if there's a piston misfiring or the cam is punching a hole through the lifter. Isn't that the reason why there are cam position sensors?

agree, that damn washer fluid drives me nuts for like a week or two until finally I get it some fluid... But ya my 3.0 makes that noise when you start it, and until it warms up sounds like that... Its not the oil Winston, I have tried 0-40w, 10-30w, and today I went to 5-30w and they all make the same noise.. I replaced the sparks, valve cover gaskets, and still... When the car is cold it will make that noise REALLY LOUDLY for like a sec, then it mumbles down.. Its the lifters, and the only way you can get that noise to stop is by replacing them... Im too lazy and believe that as long as they work and the car starts its fine..

Here's a video I made that has that noise... I will try later tonight to make a better one.. This one sucks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7puENb82SW8

[Frey7190]

The 3.0 lite takes a little shy of 7 liters of oil (liters and quarts are real close to the same amount). What your describing sounds more like the typical problem of the 1.8T's. What happens is that the engines develop sludge build up all throughout the engine and when the oil is changed, especially when suddenly switching to full synthetic on engines which have been getting poorly serviced with syn-blend oil, is that a lot of the sludge will rather suddenly start wash down and settle to the bottom of the oil pan and starrt clogging up the oil pump pick-up screen stave the engine of oil. Most all Audi/VW engines requie pretty high oil pressure even at idle to keep the lifter fom making noise. Also, unfortunately the 3.0's are also known fo wearing cam lobes flat when they don't get the proper synthetic oil in them.
Unfortunately I see a fair share of 1.8T's and 3.0's where shops only use syn-blend oil and then people still go 10,000 miles between services and sludging poblems strrat to crop up. It sucks because people think they're taking care of their car but getting fvcked by cheap skate shops.............that's another debate though.

I would start by varifying service recods to know what type of oil it's been getting. Varify it has the correct filter on it and probably let the engine warrm and drain the oil out for at least a couple of hours and refill with the poper oil and filter and see if it improves. If not, then it's time to start checking the actual oil pressure and disassembling the engine to inspect for sludge and damage. Pulling the lower oil pan is quick and easy. If it does lots of sludge build up in the pan, it may very well have started wearing some cam lobes flat already.....hope not

Just for info, the engine should be able to maintain good oil pressure with as little as 3 liters or quarts. Obviously it's not good to drive around much with that little oil in it though. I believe the low oil level warning turns on at about 2 - 2.5 quats low.

Good luck. Hope all turns out well.

C

So if I put in say an extra quart of oil to my 3.0 it will help stop that noise?? I just put in 6qts like the manual said.. Will putting an extra quart harm the car or its performance? I heard that putting too much oil will dim a cars power?

[Frey7190]

Eris, I take back what I said to Winston.... I turn my car on to take that video I promised you guys, and the 5-30w Castrol Syntec actually got rid of that noise when you start it.. You still hear a bit the noise of the lifters, but it has been significantly reduced!

-- What I would do from here is get that oil thats in your car out, and just load her up with a new filter and 6qts of Castrol 5-30w syntec!

Best of luck!
James

[dpatel]

3.0 uses about 6.8quarts if you change the filter out.

[Frey7190]

^ user manual says 5.8

[dpatel]

^^my manual for 2002 3.0L says 6.3 quarts. My dealer invoices for oil changes say 6.8 quarts. I asked them why the difference, they said 6.3 was without including the oil in the filter. Use 6.8 when changing oil and filter out.

I would image it should be same from 2002 to 2004 since the engine is basically the same 3.0L.

[Eyerate]

My 3.0 takes exactly 7 quarts of Mobile One with the larger Bosch filter.

[Frey7190]

Ok so that ppl dont think im looney or something, here is a direct picture from my user manual. Page: 347-348 reads as follows:


-- so that we know where not talking about the 1.8t or the 4.2.. (pg.347)


-- page 348 states... 5.8qts with filter.. I never can figure out whats 5.8, so I just buy the 6 pack of oil and pour it all in

Ok so now ppl know... I aint pulling this out of thin air.. its documented! :)

[Eyerate]

Manual is wrong. I've personally done a few oil changes and it required 7 quarts with the larger Bosch filter. My most recent oil change was done at an audi dealer and the receipt said 7 quarts.

I remember when I first bought the car that the manual called for 5.8 and I had purchased only 6 and it was still low. I had to drive back to AutoZone to get an extra quart.

[absolutegtr]

LMFAO @ rocker arm......rednecks and there pushrod V8's

[Frey7190]

ok so i put in another quart of oil... Unfortunately I didn't have Castrol Syntec 5-30 (only bought a 6pack) so I found a bottle of Mobil1 10-30 and added it to the mix to make 7qts.. Have to say my car runs a lot more smoother and when you push it down it doesn't even sound like its stressed at all! A++

I just took a sharpie and scratched out the 5.8 and wrote 7! lol

[dpatel]

Dude, I would call Audi of NA on that one. This is BS that they print it in the manual like that. You could have legit data for a lawsuite for any damage to your engine.

[Frey7190]

^^ well I dont have time for lengthy lawsuits and court fees.. Im a HS student awaiting college acceptances lol... But if someone is down to sue Audi NA then they might be able to walk out with an R8 or two hehehehe

[Eris]

So after all of the leg work and after all the agita, it ends up that I do need at the least a new follower and should definitely get a new camshaft.

The problem and the cause of all of this, lack of oil changes by the previous owner. When my guy opened up the top of the engine he said that he couldn't even see anything but black oil gunk, and since the car only has about 67K miles on it, he should have been able to see some metal shining back at him. All this added gunk wore down the cam follower to the point that it was metal on metal for a little while, hence the heavy tapping I was hearing. Thankfully, I took it in before it became a bigger problem than it is now.

Thankfully, back when I bought the car, I had another friend who was a salesmen at an Audi dealership and he took it upon him to run the service record of the vehicle. Upon closer inspection, I can see that the previous owner's last oil change was 11/23/05. I purchased the car in January of last year, 2008. That's a difference of 2 years. Now, considering the amount of gunk in the engine, I can safely assume that the previous owner probably went a majority of those 2 years without an oil change.

2 fucking years... Can you imagine!?

And the owner used to take it back and forth from New Jersey, New York, Boston, all over the tri-state and New England area.

Can you imagine being that irresponsible with a fucking 3.0??