Dyno Day @ ASP Dec 20th ... Results?

[Don Supreme]

Where are the results?

[Russell2686]

yeah im curious also

[bassed]

316/282 corrected was the best I could pull off uncorrected that was 335/299....I have come to find that my AVC-R is off by about 3.5-4psi from what ASP was pulling off the Manifold and the weather from my drive down and my adjustments to the EBC were not what was needed once inside and on the rollers (temp. differences, pressure differences slighlty with a conditioned space and then outside being in the low 20's on Saturday. The numbers I put down on ASP's dyno at 25.8psi were just about identical to that of what I put down at Unitronics at 18psi. My injectors are maxing out now. Basically I came away finding a few glitches, happy over all but not what I was shooting for by any means. This kind of makes everything much clearer, I think things are off a tad to say the least and I think the tune is not on point or as prime as it should be to produce mad powa, but it's what one could drive daily for years and not worry as it's safe and very conservative.

[Don Supreme]

316/282 corrected was the best I could pull off uncorrected that was 335/299....I have come to find that my AVC-R is off by about 3.5-4psi from what ASP was pulling off the Manifold and the weather from my drive down and my adjustments to the EBC were not what was needed once inside and on the rollers (temp. differences, pressure differences slighlty with a conditioned space and then outside being in the low 20's on Saturday. The numbers I put down on ASP's dyno at 25.8psi were just about identical to that of what I put down at Unitronics at 18psi. My injectors are maxing out now. Basically I came away finding a few glitches, happy over all but not what I was shooting for by any means. This kind of makes everything much clearer, I think things are off a tad to say the least and I think the tune is not on point or as prime as it should be to produce mad powa, but it's what one could drive daily for years and not worry as it's safe and very conservative.

So you are saying your 630 injectors are maxed @ below 350 AWHP.

Do you have any inj on time logs?

[bassed]

Yup Sean about 8, I know of someone maxing out 870's on a 2871 as well. I thought the dyno was low at first, but as more cars went from STG3- S4's (one actually went to STG3 for and dyno'd again lower than as STG3-) and a Dinan STG1 135 it was clear their dyno is pretty on point to say the least. The 135 hit spot on what Dinan advertised. Best #'s of the day were from a friend of Jackson's with a STG3 with a bit of juice I believe.

[Don Supreme]

honestly................. not happening.... If you aren't getting the fuel you need into the combustion chamber, the injectors are not always to blame.

Can you please post your logs?

[mike-2ptzero]

How do you figure the injectors are maxed when the AFR stays perfectly flat thru the whole pull and does not go lean at high rpm?

Maxing out 870cc injectors on a 2871r? You have to be kidding because there is no way in hell thats ever going to happen unless the person is running absolutly no fuel pressure. I mean come on 870cc injectors is good for over 500whp even at 3bar which is something a single GT2871r could never even come close to making.

It seems too many people here on this forum jump too quickly to blame the size of the injectors. When you see the AFR go lean quickly you will then know your injectors are maxed.

Bassed - I still think that small .55 a/r is really holding you back from making good power.


BTW why does it seem when there is a dyno day on the east coast it always takes so long for people to post up their results?

[Don Supreme]

It seems too many people here on this forum jump too quickly to blame the size of the injectors.

My point exactly, people start talking about injectors and then everyone is jumping on the maxing out injector bandwagon....

[AudiA4_20T]

Bigger Injectors FTW!!

[mike-2ptzero]

Bigger Injectors FTW!!

LOL, yes everyone here should be running 1600cc injectors and no one would ever need to upgrade after that.

My point exactly, people start talking about injectors and then everyone is jumping on the maxing out injector bandwagon....

I still haven't seen anyone that says their injectors are "maxed out" show any AFR readings that are spiking lean. They just seem to use the "maxed out" as an excuse to why they aren't making the power they think they should be making.

[djwimbo]

So at Uni a Mustang Dyno read ~325Awhp @ 18psi
and at ASP a Mustang dyno read 316Awhp @ 25.8psi

Is it me, or does something seem wrong here?

... I'd be interested in a 2871R maxxing 870's w/o spray too.

[bassed]

How do you figure the injectors are maxed when the AFR stays perfectly flat thru the whole pull and does not go lean at high rpm?

Maxing out 870cc injectors on a 2871r? You have to be kidding because there is no way in hell thats ever going to happen unless the person is running absolutly no fuel pressure. I mean come on 870cc injectors is good for over 500whp even at 3bar which is something a single GT2871r could never even come close to making.

It seems too many people here on this forum jump too quickly to blame the size of the injectors. When you see the AFR go lean quickly you will then know your injectors are maxed.

Bassed - I still think that small .55 a/r is really holding you back from making good power.


BTW why does it seem when there is a dyno day on the east coast it always takes so long for people to post up their results?

I know that the .55 a/r is really, really holding this all back.

As for the person with the 870's and the 2871r, he put down 366 on a DynoDynamics dyno and is running 034 IIc, he's also pretty knowledgable and reliable to say the least. He's running 4bar and was over 90% with the 630's, hence going 870cc with a peak hold. He accumulated data on a 85* track day as well.

My point exactly, people start talking about injectors and then everyone is jumping on the maxing out injector bandwagon....

Bandwagon? I actually asked him how he was deriving his duty cycle because I thought there was no way. I don't have the logs handy sorry. I hit a 14.96 inj. mean time in m/s from 5800-7200, which would be a range from 72% to 89% at 7200. It's not being on the bandwagon, sorry. I'm basing this off of 3 logging sessions where I was running 24-26psi.

LOL, yes everyone here should be running 1600cc injectors and no one would ever need to upgrade after that.

I still haven't seen anyone that says their injectors are "maxed out" show any AFR readings that are spiking lean. They just seem to use the "maxed out" as an excuse to why they aren't making the power they think they should be making.

This is not about making power, I'm not making power because I run a small .55 a/r and don't rev past 7200. The .55 a/r means I am in the 33-35lb flow rate, which is just not enough. I do know I added 100whp from 15psi to 25.8, I was having touble with duty cycle and the temps between my drive down and hoping on the dyno inside the garage bays (temps/humidity/pressure were all very different).

So at Uni a Mustang Dyno read ~325Awhp @ 18psi
and at ASP a Mustang dyno read 316Awhp @ 25.8psi

Is it me, or does something seem wrong here?

... I'd be interested in a 2871R maxxing 870's w/o spray too.

I don't know what to say about the differences in the Mustang Dyno's, aside from the conditions dyno'd in vary and we were tuning while at UNI with duty cycle as well, I've since changed things with the EBC just about everytime I go out due to atmospheric differences. I do know the ASP Dyno seems pretty damn spot on, at least it did on Saturday. The only other B5 A4 put down 245ish with the 2871r.

[mike-2ptzero]

I know that the .55 a/r is really, really holding this all back.

As for the person with the 870's and the 2871r, he put down 366 on a DynoDynamics dyno and is running 034 IIc, he's also pretty knowledgable and reliable to say the least. He's running 4bar and was over 90% with the 630's, hence going 870cc with a peak hold. He accumulated data on a 85* track day as well.

But how does that mean he is maxing out 870cc injectors?

Let me know when someones setup is asking for over 100%, then they can say they are maxing them out.

[bassed]

But how does that mean he is maxing out 870cc injectors?

Let me know when someones setup is asking for over 100%, then they can say they are maxing them out.

Running past 80% is not something he nor I want to due. Sheet I know STG2 S4's running 130%, but I wouldn't think of running over 90%. If I want to increase boost which I do I am going to need more Injector. 90% lap after lap, turn after turn while you get hotter and hotter is not something I want to do.

The 870's were at 90% when he hit 366awhp with the 2871r, to him and I that's as far as we'd push an injector. Considering we are doing it for 30-45 min sessions this makes a safety factor go away.

[TighTT]

I dont want to get involved with the whole dispute but I figured I would atleast throw in my own experiences. My 630CC injectors @ 4 bar max out just above 30psi FWIW.

[AudiA4_20T]

I dont want to get involved with the whole dispute but I figured I would atleast throw in my own experiences. My 630CC injectors @ 4 bar max out just above 30psi FWIW.

on a BAMF turbo

[Audi Skate Snow]

870cc maxed out with 2871? is that what im hearing????

[mike-2ptzero]

Running past 80% is not something he nor I want to due. Sheet I know STG2 S4's running 130%, but I wouldn't think of running over 90%. If I want to increase boost which I do I am going to need more Injector. 90% lap after lap, turn after turn while you get hotter and hotter is not something I want to do.

The 870's were at 90% when he hit 366awhp with the 2871r, to him and I that's as far as we'd push an injector. Considering we are doing it for 30-45 min sessions this makes a safety factor go away.

Wait, so was he maxing out 870's or 630's when making 366whp? Because you seemed to have posted that he maxed both out and used the same whp.

As for the person with the 870's and the 2871r, he put down 366 on a DynoDynamics dyno and is running 034 IIc, he's also pretty knowledgable and reliable to say the least. He's running 4bar and was over 90% with the 630's, hence going 870cc with a peak hold. He accumulated data on a 85* track day as well.

and

The 870's were at 90% when he hit 366awhp with the 2871r

90% on 870cc injectors at just 366awhp makes no sense at all unless he was fillng his tank by pissing in it. Even I made more then 366awhp on CA 91 and never even got close to maxing out my 800cc injectors at just 3bar.

[Don Supreme]

90% on 870cc injectors at just 366awhp makes no sense at all unless he was fillng his tank by pissing in it. Even I made more then 366awhp on CA 91 and never even got close to maxing out my 800cc injectors at just 3bar.

*lol*------------

Lots of missing information...

Sure run 10.0 afr (misfires, I know) and 0 timing and you can max anything out.

-------------------------

Bottom line is running 1000cc (Yes, I said 1000) injectors on 2871 is a complete joke.

[bassed]

Wait, so was he maxing out 870's or 630's when making 366whp? Because you seemed to have posted that he maxed both out and used the same whp.



and





90% on 870cc injectors at just 366awhp makes no sense at all unless he was fillng his tank by pissing in it. Even I made more then 366awhp on CA 91 and never even got close to maxing out my 800cc injectors at just 3bar.

100% sure he maxxed out the 630's at 4bar and I am almost 100% he was seeing 90% with the 870's at 4bar when he made 366awhp. I just mentioned this as a reference. I am 200% sure I am maxxing out on my present setup as is past 24-25psi.

[rms-s4]

its easy to max out injectors when you dont have enough fuel pump

[Don Supreme]

its easy to max out injectors when you dont have enough fuel pump

Yes, indeed..

honestly................. not happening.... If you aren't getting the fuel you need into the combustion chamber, the injectors are not always to blame.
Can you please post your logs?

[mike-2ptzero]

its easy to max out injectors when you dont have enough fuel pump

Even with a larger pump there might not be enough fuel supplied to the rail by the small stock feed line. The key word here is fuel "supply", if the supply is too small the tune needs to open the injector longer.

[rms-s4]

*lol*------------



Bottom line is running 1000cc (Yes, I said 1000) injectors on 2871 is a complete joke.

Why not? having the injectors at a lower duty cycle would allow for a better spray pattern. no? i mean you dont need to go crazy with this but i would rather have more than not enough.
on my acura with 660cc inejctors twin walbros with STOCk lines i had enough fuel to max out my s6152e and the injectors werent over 50% i didnt think that was over kill

[Don Supreme]

Why not? having the injectors at a lower duty cycle would allow for a better spray pattern. no? i mean you dont need to go crazy with this but i would rather have more than not enough.
on my acura with 660cc inejctors twin walbros with STOCk lines i had enough fuel to max out my s6152e and the injectors werent over 50% i didnt think that was over kill

660c are not 1000s........

Are you sure they were @ 50%, do you have logs or are you just guessing?

I have always noticed people just throw out numbers.

---- Regarding spray pattern. I don't think running an injector @ 50% vs 80% is going to yield a better "spray pattern."

[317ssayzarc]

I skipped out on most of the posts but I will say this...

Ian, if you can provide fuel pressure data for a pull, that would be wonderful. Otherwise there is no way, and I mean no way in hell, that someone is maxing out 870cc fuel INJECTORS on a 2871R. They are maxing out their fuel PUMP

[GetBoosted84]

Lets see some more dyno sheets.

I'm really jealous since I couldn't make it out for the dyno day.

[bassed]

Can you please post your logs?

Cars still steaming....I'm not joking about these maxxing out. 87% and I'm not even up to 6k My fueling setup is solid.... 044 pump, semi fresh fuel filter, AEM AJJFPR, Ross Rail etc... The AFR's are just like on the plots (my LC-1 was reading the same as ASP's).

Lets see some more dyno sheets.

I'm really jealous since I couldn't make it out for the dyno day.

It was just Dan and I with A4's, all others were B5 S4's a SRT and a 135 and all are AW guys.

[GetBoosted84]

Oh I figured there would be more A4s that would show up. Oh well. That's cool that a bunch of people made it out! Sorry I missed out :-(

Looks like you are peaking out at 88.1% duty cycle at 6480 rpm. I just checked the logs from my Uni tune and it also peaks around 88.8% duty cycle (different tune... I know... but same tuner).

[1NaudiA4]

Mike: what duty cycle are you running your injectors at? Your running 1000cc's right?

I thought the general consensus was to have around 80%.

I'm running 50psi static fuel pressure with my 870cc injectors and reached a 95% duty cycle the other day running 26psi with a 11.8 AFR at 7500rpms

I would much rather have some headroom as far as the injectors go than to have to rebuild the motor because of a melted piston.

[Don Supreme]

Cars still steaming....I'm not joking about these maxxing out. 87% and I'm not even up to 6k My fueling setup is solid.... 044 pump, semi fresh fuel filter, AEM AJJFPR, Ross Rail etc... The AFR's are just like on the plots (my LC-1 was reading the same as ASP's).





It was just Dan and I with A4's, all others were B5 S4's a SRT and a 135 and all are AW guys.

Ian,

Are you running 3 bar or 4 bar?

[bernB5]

there's no way you're maxing out 630's on your setup dude.. and definitely no way someone's maxing out 870's on a 2871 at 360whp.. there is either a mechanical or tuning flaw to blame for this.

i ran 630's at a 4 bar base and 25psi on my IIc and was at 80% duty.
and then ran them at 3 bar base on my Tapp and was even lower. Even Tapp, and most others will say, at a 4 bar base and 30psi on the 30r, you'll just about be maxing out 630's.

[bassed]

Ian,

Are you running 3 bar or 4 bar?

I'm at 4bar, which is what Mike wrote the tune for.

[mike-2ptzero]

Mike: what duty cycle are you running your injectors at? Your running 1000cc's right?

I thought the general consensus was to have around 80%.

I'm running 50psi static fuel pressure with my 870cc injectors and reached a 95% duty cycle the other day running 26psi with a 11.8 AFR at 7500rpms

I would much rather have some headroom as far as the injectors go than to have to rebuild the motor because of a melted piston.

I a am at or just about maxed out on my 1000cc injectors which is why my AFR spikes up in the higher rpms of each gear. This is with my fuel pressure at or just a little higher then 3 bar. I guess I could raise the fuel pressure, but that means going into the IIc software to adjust the injector setting and adding more fueling for 7800-8500 so I can keep the AFR around mid 11:1 all the way to redline.

AFR from dyno pull.

[mike-2ptzero]

there's no way you're maxing out 630's on your setup dude.. and definitely no way someone's maxing out 870's on a 2871 at 360whp.. there is either a mechanical or tuning flaw to blame for this.

Maybe with no rising rate FPR.

[dougyfresh]

Sorry I couldn't make it Ian. Caught a cold coming back from Puerto Rico and had a B5 A4 suspension install and 1.8 timing belt install to do that weekend. Needed to rest before yesterday and today's drive down to NC.




I spoke to Mark@ASP yesterday when I was at the shop and he wants to do another dyno day but more focused on 1.8s only. What do you guys think about early to mid February? I plan on being at the next one.



I'll have to get my logs for you guys but I'm reaching 90% inj duty cycle on race gas with 630s and a 2871R.

[bassed]

No worries Doug, sall good:) I am down for another day for sure, especially now that I found my issue.Pressure tested today and have a wicked leak to say the least, one capable of robbing 30-50ahwp, and most likely the cause of my fueling appearing to be maxing out injectors.



I need to clock the turbo and re-work my charge piping for sure to prevent this issue in the future. The back side of that coupler has a pinky finger nail size hole <bangs head>

[317ssayzarc]

Damn...

[bassed]

Damn...

I am going to assume it's been this way since July Anyone running the SPA will need to clock the turbo and make sure that coupler doesn't drop along the first runner like mine is (should have seen this issue a while back). I even wrapped it with heat reflective material to try and prevent this, but twas for naught.

I want to talk to the guys who made that pressure tester for my friends shop, it's awesome and should be marketed.

[mike-2ptzero]

yeah it should be clocked so the IC pipe goes over the frame rail, best way when using a top mount turbo setup.