APR 3+ (5spd) vs GTRS (Tip) - Quattro Mustang Dynos

[martini]

Vinny and I went to Speed Industry tonight and dyoned our cars on their Mustang Dyno. 4 pulls each. Neither one of us made the power we expected - the guy at Speed Industry said he has taken cars off his dyno and brought them to the Mustang Dyno that was at Wheel to Wheel and found that his dyno typically reads in 10% low. Who knows if that is true or not, all we have are the plots..


First plot: Torques and HP of our two best runs. I wish he would have rev'd the APR plot out a bit further as it almost looks like there is more power in the top end.




Second plot: Same two runs with AFR and Boost - the GTRS kit was boosting much higher than my APR kit





Third plot: Neither one of us had any real opportunity to sit around and tweak our sytems. My APR is very limited in what I can do, and Vinny literally got is SPS today so had no chance to fine tune anything. I did however, log my plots. On my last run I turned up the timing 5.5 degrees. The log still showed almost all 0 CF's. Either way, this is the plot of the baseline software and then turning up the timing 5.5 with lemmi.

for those that are interested... here is my log after bumping timing 5.5 degrees. This is the best run I had with the APR kit. Google Docs is not working from my job. I'm not sure what the lambda oscillations are all about. It looks like I could turn up the boost and still be pretty good since i start running a bit on the rich side.
http://www.a4mods.com/pics/random/dy...ull4_5pt25.csv

Dyno - significant gain with this small tweak - 12AWHP, 11 Ft-lbs





I think all in all this is a good baseline. I think both vinny and I are a bit disappointing in our numbers, but it is what it is. The goal was to get another GTRS manual down there for an even broader spectrum.


oh and also, I bought this APR kit a while ago - it is the one that DJL5S (spelling?) dyno'd at about 310 whp on fwd if I recall correctly

[Roy munson]

Finally some legit dyno charts. Thanks for sharing, and dont be disappointed. Good numbers on pump gas

[B6Lovin]

Finally some legit dyno charts. Thanks for sharing, and dont be disappointed. Good numbers on pump gas

? theres plenty of good dyno info on various cars and parts here....

[actlsub9]

Uncorrected?

[AudiA4Turbo22]

wow that is disappointing but it's all good now u guys start here to get higher numbers

[A4SoftWalker]

Pretty good numbers guys. Here's my APR 1+ K03 for comparison; last 2 of 4 brutal pulls, one minute apart, 91 octane. Also dynoed on a Mustang:::

[akaEsCo01]

I was told the same thing about Mustangs read low when I got my car dynoed. Don't be disappointed, you are still putting down more wheel power that a good majority of the cars on the road.

A4softwalker, are your numbers corrected or uncorrected?

[dougyfresh]

Respectable numbers. What does APR quote as number figures for their kit?

93octane in both?

what SPS3 settings on REVO? t5 b5?

the cyan and red curves are REVO since you labeled the others APR?

loading on the dyno looks right (12.7HP at 50mph) for quattro

[Papachristou]

apr quotes 340 chp

[martini]

Respectable numbers. What does APR quote as number figures for their kit?

93octane in both?

what SPS3 settings on REVO? t5 b5?

the cyan and red curves are REVO since you labeled the others APR?

loading on the dyno looks right (12.7HP at 50mph) for quattro

both on 93.. Vinny will have to chime in with his settings.. . cyan and red are Revo

[martini]

heres teh CHP plot for APR

"APR announces the Stage III+ kit, the ultimate turbo system upgrade for the 2002-2005 A4 1.8T. This kit is capable of 340 horsepower and 332 foot-pounds of torque at the flywheel on 93 octane gas"






if this mustang dyno is seriously 10% low, then the numbers would line up wtih the expected DT loss

[martini]

for those that are interested... here is my log after bumping timing 5.5 degrees. Google Docs is not working from my job


http://www.a4mods.com/pics/random/dy...ull4_5pt25.csv

[martini]

I just updated the original post... more info

[dougyfresh]

340chp is around 270awhp using a 1.26 factor. You are not that far off.

[actlsub9]

Uncorrected?

??

[AudiA4Turbo22]

Pretty good numbers guys. Here's my APR 1+ K03 for comparison; last 2 of 4 brutal pulls, one minute apart, 91 octane. Also dynoed on a Mustang:::

not bad on ur tip u made 225 BHP and 270 Btrq

[KPC1.8TQuat]

Great numbers guys. I'm sure once Vinny gets his SPS3 dialed in, he will unlock some more power.

Hypothetically let's put Vinny at a conservative 30% DT loss for Tiptronic (probably more like 35% but whatever) that would mean at 207 AWHP he is at 269 BHP. Not bad for not being totally dialed in yet.

Are these numbers corrected?

[A4SoftWalker]

A4softwalker, are your numbers corrected or uncorrected?

Those numbers are uncorrected for any drivetrain/wheel/frictional losses.

not bad on ur tip u made 225 BHP and 270 Btrq

Trying to be funny???

I'm a 5spd 2002 A4TQM "Sport" my Cali brutha.

I got the lower suspension too. Gettin ready for the gud coilover stuff from Stasis once I get over their HORRIBLE customer service.

[actlsub9]

Those numbers are uncorrected for any drivetrain/wheel/frictional losses.

By corrected he is referring to atmospheric corrections, not drivetrain.

[martini]

??

Im actually not even sure... he didnt make any mention of altitude, etc corrections, I dont think this is corrected

[A4SoftWalker]

By corrected he is referring to atmospheric corrections, not drivetrain.

In that case then no. I am probably a few feet (like 5ft) above sea level. Is that the main consideration for correction???

EDIT>>>

Just called up my dyno operator and he said that they do not have a "Weather Station" feature attached to their Mustang dyno, however they do pay attention and take pride that the settings they put in their PC are as close to street & standard average annual conditions as is "humanly possible". He also mentioned that we are just @ sea level out here.

From what he said that is an expensive add-on feature. A lot of the set-ups don't order it.

[actlsub9]

Im actually not even sure... he didnt make any mention of altitude, etc corrections, I dont think this is uncorrected

Uncorrected means NOT factoring in altitude/temp/humidity. It is what you actually made on the dyno. So you think these are uncorrected?

You should find out for sure, because I would bet it was cold, so if they are corrected then you actually made higher numbers then these.

[martini]

Uncorrected means NOT factoring in altitude/temp/humidity. It is what you actually made on the dyno. So you think these are uncorrected?

You should find out for sure, because I would bet it was cold, so if they are corrected then you actually made higher numbers then these.

sorry, i edited my post 2 times because my wording was wrong... still didnt get it right.

it was on the cold side... i will have to call them or something to find out what the deal was

[vinny.dtw]

We are at sea level at that location. And possible the most optimal temperature to run a dyno day. My SPS3 was dialed in at b7 t5. My goal was going for 250 to the wheels, and I def fell short of that. Those numbers don't need to be corrected as far as I know.

B7 T5 I yielded about 197whp
B8 T6 I yielded about 207whp

Didn't have the opportunity to log. But I highly doubt 250 to the wheels is easily achievable with pump. I'm going to do the research and see what the Select plus units does? I'm confused as if the select plus actually dials in more timing or boost, or is it loading preset maps onto the ecu? And what is the difference between each degree aka, boost 5 to 6, and timing 5 to 6 etc etc. The more I'm learning about this, the more I feel like something is wrong either with the car, or my brain is just retarded, and not comprehending things.

[B6Lovin]

Didn't have the opportunity to log. But I highly doubt 250 to the wheels is easily achievable with pump. I'm going to do the research and see what the Select plus units does? I'm confused as if the select plus actually dials in more timing or boost, or is it loading preset maps onto the ecu? And what is the difference between each degree aka, boost 5 to 6, and timing 5 to 6 etc etc. The more I'm learning about this, the more I feel like something is wrong either with the car, or my brain is just retarded, and not comprehending things.

you can get 250, you're just missing some hardware necessary to do it with a TIP (no i dont mean tranny upgrades). if you really push it you'll definitely be able to get there.

[vinny.dtw]

what type of hardware do you think I'm missing...

I've got the whole kit...from injectors/mani/testpipe/exhaust/fmic/DV...

[A4SoftWalker]

what type of hardware do you think I'm missing...

I've got the whole kit...from injectors/mani/testpipe/exhaust/fmic/DV...

How 'bout a built bottom end... jus kiddin - the auto "might" be soakin up some power. How much??? Maybe someone can chime in You should be able to do a lot with the SPS3 unit and maybe meth injection?

[AudiA4Turbo22]

Those numbers are uncorrected for any drivetrain/wheel/frictional losses.



Trying to be funny???

I'm a 5spd 2002 A4TQM "Sport" my Cali brutha.

I got the lower suspension too. Gettin ready for the gud coilover stuff from Stasis once I get over their HORRIBLE customer service.

oh whoops thought ur SN was A4husslin

[dougyfresh]

for those that are interested... here is my log after bumping timing 5.5 degrees. Google Docs is not working from my job


http://www.a4mods.com/pics/random/dy...ull4_5pt25.csv

Your logs look fine. Healthy amount of timing and the boost curve looks good. A/F is all over the place though. That might just be from the sniffer in the tailpipe. Might not have been inserted all the way.

Regardless, I think these charts are fine. Vince just needs to dial in his SPS3 settings and his car will be steller.

[vinny.dtw]

I dunno, Doug have you looked at my logs from my previous tiptronic build post?

[dougyfresh]

no. can you email them to me? dougyfresh at vt dot edu

[actlsub9]

I dunno, Doug have you looked at my logs from my previous tiptronic build post?

The logs you posted on the last page look fine. Your going to want to log overall timing advance when you start playing with the SPS.

[vinny.dtw]

Doug, I sent it to you. Greg, do you happen to knwo what channel that is to log overall timing?

[actlsub9]

003

[martini]

Your logs look fine. Healthy amount of timing and the boost curve looks good. A/F is all over the place though. That might just be from the sniffer in the tailpipe. Might not have been inserted all the way.

Regardless, I think these charts are fine. Vince just needs to dial in his SPS3 settings and his car will be steller.

if you look at the log though the lambda reading captures the same AFR oscillations when compared to the requested lambda

dont know what thats all about

[martini]

Vinny, you should look at logging 3, 20 and 31.. that gives you a good idea of what is what

[martini]

video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACAwXsp5Bp4

[vinny.dtw]

Bringing this from the dead.

http://www.xceedspeed.com/forums/sho...try+dyno+lower

The link above shows up that the mustang dyno that we used to dyno our cars back in December is a good 10%-15% lower then a comparable mustang dyno from a different state. Someone locally took the liberty to compare the two dyno's with the same setup (EVO) on a stock turbo and yielded a difference of 25whp and 33lbs of torque between the two different dyno's. But with the same load settings etc etc. The said dyno in comparison is in Toledo Ohio, which means the elevation is the same.

Only reason I brought this back up is to prove that dyno numbers are too subjective to compare when the dyno is different. As you can see here, the number difference is drastic. Just because you can or can't attain 300whp from where you are, doesn't mean you can or can't do it on some other dyno. As someone said on the other forum. Take it to the strip. Trap speeds don't lie.

In the end it is a tool of measurement for performance gains. Not a pissing match. On a better note, I will be going back there relatively soon. A few revisions has been made since the December dyno.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I don't feel like doing the investigation work but what were the temps each day at each location? Were those also very similar because a 10-15 degree difference could make a good difference as well.

[vinny.dtw]

I don't feel like doing the investigation work but what were the temps each day at each location? Were those also very similar because a 10-15 degree difference could make a good difference as well.

Initial dyno in Ohio was done on March 28, 2009. New one was done a week after that. Doubt the temps changed THAT much, on top of that, those are still cool months up here. And a if i give you a 10 degree difference, you will not get a 20+whp difference.