AAW refuses wage cuts; bail-out package is denied

[dantheman762]

Gotta love those unions... They'd rather not have jobs at all for their "brotherhood" rather than have some sort of job security with less pay. Good, let the big 3 fall. Why should the taxpayer help out these giants when they clearly don't want to make vehicles that consumers want to drive.

What I love about all this is the media's coverage of this crisis as the "auto crisis". Funny, but I think only the big three were sitting in front of Congress/Senate committee asking for $$$. Why isn't Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VAG, etc. bitching and whining? Hmmm, maybe because they've got business models that acutally work to produce vehicles that consumers actually want to drive? This "crisis" was long in the making for the big 3. They've been hand-cuffed by their unions for too long. Both have equal blame in this. One of GM's biggest plants (truck plant and the new Camaro) is just down the road from us here in Toronto and it's been the same thing with the CAW. Let them fall...

[BavarianAudi]

Gotta love those unions... They'd rather not have jobs at all for their "brotherhood" rather than have some sort of job security with less pay. Good, let the big 3 fall. Why should the taxpayer help out these giants when they clearly don't want to make vehicles that consumers want to drive.

What I love about all this is the media's coverage of this crisis as the "auto crisis". Funny, but I think only the big three were sitting in front of Congress/Senate committee asking for $$$. Why isn't Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VAG, etc. bitching and whining? Hmmm, maybe because they've got business models that acutally work to produce vehicles that consumers actually want to drive? This "crisis" was long in the making for the big 3. They've been hand-cuffed by their unions for too long. Both have equal blame in this. One of GM's biggest plants (truck plant and the new Camaro) is just down the road from us here in Toronto and it's been the same thing with the CAW. Let them fall...

actually toyota and honda aren't doing so hot either. Not as bad as the big but they are definitely feeling the slowdown of the American economy. In short FUCK BUSH!!!!!

[dantheman762]

actually toyota and honda aren't doing so hot either. Not as bad as the big but they are definitely feeling the slowdown of the American economy. In short FUCK BUSH!!!!!

Yeah, I know. I was just simplifying it. You're Bush sentiments are agreed with by 99% of us up here! That was funny. Let's see how long it stays up before the mods move it for swearing.

[auggy]

f*ck the union. those a**holes are the main reason that the american auto companies are in such a dire situation.

[scot_w]

f*ck the union. those a**holes are the main reason that the american auto companies are in such a dire situation.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

Unions had a time and place, but got (as my Grandmother used to say) Too Big For Their Britches.

Management used unions as an excuse to ship jobs to Mexico, Brazil, etc. The whole failing to look forward and innovate was just stupid business.

And by golly, whadda' ya' know. You ship all the jobs away and pretty soon nobody has a job left to buy your stuff.

[flath12]

actually toyota and honda aren't doing so hot either. Not as bad as the big but they are definitely feeling the slowdown of the American economy. In short FUCK BUSH!!!!!

yes, bush made the auto companies fail. Oh did you hear he blew up the trade center towers too?

[BavarianAudi]

yes, bush made the auto companies fail. Oh did you hear he blew up the trade center towers too?

lol i hate discussing politics so i always stay out of it. wutever ur right Bush is a savior and he made America better.

[jgmpn6]

Listen I for one hate bush but i dont blame the big three's problems on him.

US automakers arent building cars up to par with imports, let them fail, dont bail them out because they dont deserve it plain and simple. Pure economics says this is just better for everyone involved in the auto business. Detriot had its hayday and its come to pass.

I however do not believe that all their employees deserve to lose their job either, my solution, some sort of a public works plan?

[scot_w]

I however do not believe that all their employees deserve to lose their job either, my solution, some sort of a public works plan?

So the question is do Americans continue to pump money into dysfunctional companies that have a very small chance of making it without continually coming back for more, or do Americans pump money into a government that cannot seem to spend their public trust reasonably?

[MYDWAGON]

Why isn't Canada putting up some money for all they've made for the plants there?

[LampyB]

actually toyota and honda aren't doing so hot either. Not as bad as the big but they are definitely feeling the slowdown of the American economy. In short FUCK BUSH!!!!!

this is the dumbest post i've read today. GW brought the big 3 down, hahaha

[poopypants]

And by golly, whadda' ya' know. You ship all the jobs away and pretty soon nobody has a job left to buy your stuff.

hahahaha... so true

[sakimano]

it's not the wage cuts that are the problem

for every car they build, GM's costs, for example, are only $800 in labour

thus if the AAW took a 50% pay cut (would you???), the GM could make an extra $400 per car profit. If they sell 3,000,000 cars per year in the US they'd have an extra $1.2 billion/year in revenue. They lost bilions last quarter, let alone all year so this 50% wage cut wouldn't even make a dent.

The real problems are the legacy costs...health care and pensions for PAST workers, not present. That's where the big three car companies are getting killed...NOT wages for current workers.

[vtracer20]

not sure if this true but i heard it on tv and from friends:

many union employees get paid 60+ K a year for assembly line work? wtf!!!!!

heard on news: fired union employees get paid up to 97% of their salary a year up to two years after they get laid off? WTF!!!!!

for one bush didn't cause this, im sure he being office didn't help but he didn't cause this. the companies them selves cause this, creating cars that are not up to par to the competition while their employees are getting paid sooo much more than their competition. I think they should and will go down, they need to restructure themselves. get rid of car makes that are not profitable and get cranking on cars that people will buy.

[djs]

it's not the wage cuts that are the problem

for every car they build, GM's costs, for example, are only $800 in labour

thus if the AAW took a 50% pay cut (would you???), the GM could make an extra $400 per car profit. If they sell 3,000,000 cars per year in the US they'd have an extra $1.2 billion/year in revenue. They lose bilions last quarter, let alone all year so this 50% wage cut wouldn't even make a dent.

The real problems are the legacy costs...health care and pensions for PAST workers, not present. That's where the big three car companies are getting killed...NOT wages for current workers.

Smartest post in this thread.

[MYDWAGON]

The real problems are the legacy costs...health care and pensions for PAST workers, not present. That's where the big three car companies are getting killed...NOT wages for current workers.

Also the fact that they invest r&r in useless things.They spend money on 1960's retro cars with a 1960's drivetrain for the most part.The fact they take the cheapest parts money can buy and assemble them into a car.It is also present workers.If they close a plant now but have a contract until 2012 then the worker gets paid for another 3 years.The fact that a worker who complains about another union gets penalized.The fact that a worker's idea's are shoved to the side as appose to a US Toyota factory worker.Their idea is researched.The fit and finish is still lacking by todays standards

[JBM]

I'm sorry but I will not buy an American made car because
1)Quality is shit-Don't give me that Built in USA be proud to own it-
2)Value-given that American cars deappreciate faster than Brittney Spears..yeah no
3)Unions-they are the downfall of capitalism. They work for twice as much pay and bitch about when they get a pay cut. Better to have a job paying 1/2 as much than none at all.

[scot_w]

1)Quality is shit-Don't give me that Built in USA be proud to own it-

I have plenty of friends and relatives that love their Built in the USA BMWs, Hondas and Toyotas (I don't know anyone that owns any of the others so just generalizing). It is when it is built in the USA out of crappy parts with lackluster design by workers that don't give a $h!- that you run into problems.

The "built union proud" or whatever the current drivel they are spewing is what is laughable. The other (non-big 3) car companies show year after year that Americans can build cars.

Where's my bailout? When I got downsized I got off my @$$, started my own company and got over it. Now the government wants to jack more of my money to pay for sloth.

Maybe I need to fold my company and go on the dole.

[flyinb501]

this is the dumbest post i've read today. GW brought the big 3 down, hahaha

I agree. The unions are to blame, and we all know what party is associated with the unions so to say Bush is to blame is absolutely idiotic. Clearly coming from someone who knows nothing about politics.

[RippleChip]

Why isn't Canada putting up some money for all they've made for the plants there?

Why would you bail out plants if the parent company is going down, its throwing money away.

Canada has money put aside that will help only if US kicks in as well.

[dantheman762]

Yeah, not sure how the Bush argument got in the response to my OP, but party politics aside, I find it very interesting that in a country which prides itself on un-fettered, deregulated capitalism (and where the word "socialism" is akin to high treason), we're now seeing the taxpayer bend over and take it from; a) the banks and now, b) the Detroit Big 3. Where does it end? What about the countless other industries that have literally halted? They're going to get this cash and make the same stupid decisions with it and they'll be at the same state in another 5 years. I guess my original thoughts were about how the Big 3 have had this coming for a long time (ridiculous pensions for retired workers is a valid point, I knew about that but forgot to mention it in my OP - thanks for calling me on that), with top-heavy management structures and a production-oriented mindset, vs. a marketing-oriented mindset, this was going to happen it was just a matter of "when". Now, this global economic slowdown is there excuse for getting a hand-out? All these arguments about the economic wheels slowing and bailing out the auto industry will fix it is erroneous. How about giving these billions of $$ back to the taxpayer (I mean THEY worked for it), so they can re-invest in the economy with REAL mortgages, pay off CC debt and get them spending on daily items first? If this bail-out happens and our Canadian gov't follows suit, I'll be p*ssed. I've already called my MP to let them know how I feel about it. Regarding the unions, I just kinda hope they are the reason it doesn't go ahead, so they'll have "blood on their hands" in the eyes of the auto industry and the industry will start seeing them for what they are... THEN we'll have north american auto companies less concerned with production and more concerned with marketing research and building cars that people actually want to drive.

[MYDWAGON]

Why would you bail out plants if the parent company is going down, its throwing money away.

Canada has money put aside that will help only if US kicks in as well.

Canada helped create the monsters

[MacDaddy]

Why isn't Canada putting up some money for all they've made for the plants there?

for the same reason the US wouldn't help bail out Honda if they were asking the Japanese government for money. You have Honda factories in the USA

[RolledMySTi]

First lets not blame Bush for this. I'm all for hating on Bush, but lets keep it to where he genuinely fucked up.

This isn't really the fault of the labor unions either. I'm not a fan of unions, their overpaid and under worked, but they are not to blame. The workers just showed up and did their job. They didn't decide to make crappy cars, they just build the ones they were told. Plus not like anyone here has said "I really don't deserve to get paid this much. Can you please deduct 5k from my salary." No one has ever bitched about being over paid. Maybe they should take a pay cut to save their jobs, but why should they when the CEO's take private jets to go beg for money. Obviously management is not concerned about cutting costs(and that's their job) so why should the workers.

The real fault of this mess is the management. Look at what Allan Mulally got paid for his first 4 months on the job, $28 million. That's a hell of a lot of union workers they have to let go to equal the pay of one exec. Secondly how the hell do you pay someone that much money in a company losing billions?

The big three is another classic case of corporate raiding. The executive of the companies had no reason to seek long term success. Hell if I got $28 mil for 4 months of work you would find my ass at the beach, not working. The big 3 may go down, but all the c level executives made millions with no consequences so what do they care? Why make good cars when you can make Escalades that brought in over $10k in profit each. The big three make crappy gas suckers because they assume the American public will buy no matter what. Then a gas crisis hits and they are screwed and the Japanese manufactures take all their business. It's the 70's all over again and, what a surprise, they didn't learn the first time it happened.

The big 3 decided to make the cars they wanted to make, cheap high profit gas suckers, and not what the consumer wants, well made efficient cars. Toyota makes well built cars that people want at the highest profit per car of any mainstream manufacture and they build most of them here. So it can be done. The bottom line is that they are suffering because they make crappy cars and have put little effort into improving them. Hell look at Chrysler's now days. They have an interior made by Playschool. Their cars are way worse than they were 10 years ago. When Hyundai makes better cars it shows how little effort the big 3 are making at improving their product.

The biggest problem is that we are stuck between a rock and hard place. If we bail them out they won't learn, but if we don't it will make an already bad economic situation worse.

Now teacher can I get an A for the essay I just wrote?

[scot_w]

Now teacher can I get an A for the essay I just wrote?

Book that man on a Sunday morning talk show. In 6 paragraphs you summed up what none of the pundits have been able to articulate in three weeks of coverage.

[MYDWAGON]

for the same reason the US wouldn't help bail out Honda if they were asking the Japanese government for money. You have Honda factories in the USA

How can you say for sure.You can't,so your point is mute

[Silvant]

it's not the wage cuts that are the problem

for every car they build, GM's costs, for example, are only $800 in labour

thus if the AAW took a 50% pay cut (would you???), the GM could make an extra $400 per car profit. If they sell 3,000,000 cars per year in the US they'd have an extra $1.2 billion/year in revenue. They lose bilions last quarter, let alone all year so this 50% wage cut wouldn't even make a dent.

The real problems are the legacy costs...health care and pensions for PAST workers, not present. That's where the big three car companies are getting killed...NOT wages for current workers.

the 1 person that doesnt sound like a moron in this thread........ ^^^

i do share many of the obvious opinions on the quality and lack of reality the "big 3" share... it's pathetic, really. design, quality, marketing, etc... it's all been horrible for so long.. it's amazing the money the execs get paid to present all that crap to the public....
the concern that we should have, no matter what our exact opinion is on this proposed bailout is the millions of jobs connected to these companies. there will be even bigger problems with our economy and workforce if they go down... there just needs to be a better solution than handing billions so they can continue to create terrible product.

[JBM]

I don't think you guys know how executives are paid. Their pay is regulated by the board which is elected by stock holders. They CEOs CAN request a salary but the board/company is who sets the salary of the CEOs. It's not like they are going and saying "Since I'm the CEO I'm going to get paid 28 million dollars" also the understanding that "Ohh why do they get paid soo much but I work just as hard" easy its called TALENT.

Just think of it as a football team its a big team and if you want good people to make those key decisions you will pay them a good salary. If you have a bunch of allstar recievers(Division managers) and say a crappy quarterback (CEO) you will not win games (Make Profit). But if you bring in a good quarterback and him in for the long haul you can turn around the team, but he still gets paid those millions when the team is losing ex. Brett Favre, and the Team(Company) brings in the players.

[MacDaddy]

How can you say for sure.You can't,so your point is mute

someones on a high horse.

while your up there then, explain to me why Canada should give a non Canadian company Canadian tax dollars.

[MYDWAGON]

someones on a high horse.

while your up there then, explain to me why Canada should give a non Canadian company Canadian tax dollars.

Because they profited from it and they made the crap.Get off your great white horse

[MacDaddy]

Because they profited from it and they made the crap.Get off your great white horse

profited from what?

how hard is it for people here to get specific? seriously?

[MYDWAGON]

profited from what?

Do I really have to explain.Ford/GM/Chrysler have plants in Canada that make lackluster vehicles.Those cars are then sold worldwide.So Canada makes tons of money off of taxation and raw materials sold,distribution etc .There is alot of Canadians doing shoddy work.I know this may hurt your feelings.I can't believe you can't figure out how Canada profits from them having factories there.

[RolledMySTi]

Do I really have to explain.Ford/GM/Chrysler have plants in Canada that make lackluster vehicles.Those cars are then sold worldwide.So Canada makes tons of money off of taxation and raw materials sold,distribution etc .There is alot of Canadians doing shoddy work.I know this may hurt your feelings.I can't believe you can't figure out how Canada profits from them having factories there.

This isn't Canada's fault and I would be pissed if I was Canadian and the Canadian government gave money to the big three. Just because they have factories there doesn't mean the Canadian government has to bail them out. They are US companies with management in the US beyond Canada's control so why should Canada have to foot the bill?

[sakimano]

I think you meant R & D as in Research and Development, not R&R (Rest & Relaxation)...but the freudian slip is very fitting...these companies have been 'Relaxing' far too long. They have been lucky to have a very loyal bunch of buyers....BUT those buyers are old, dying or dead...and their kids are driving Japanese and German.

Also the fact that they invest r&r in useless things.They spend money on 1960's retro cars with a 1960's drivetrain for the most part.The fact they take the cheapest parts money can buy and assemble them into a car.It is also present workers.If they close a plant now but have a contract until 2012 then the worker gets paid for another 3 years.The fact that a worker who complains about another union gets penalized.The fact that a worker's idea's are shoved to the side as appose to a US Toyota factory worker.Their idea is researched.The fit and finish is still lacking by todays standards

[sakimano]

^^^^ hahahahaha...you guys are funny

trust me, Canada already subsidizes the American car companies plenty. GM, Ford, Chrysler all get FUCKLOADS of tax breaks and straight cash incentives to build/maintain factories here. Of course we get plenty of jobs and tax revenue out of it, so I don't regret it one bit as a Canadian.

don't forget though...it's your own 'American' car companies who are coming north (and south to Mexico) to build cars cheaper. The strong US dollar created that. Now with the US dollar being a little less powerful thanks to 5 years of weak-dollar economic and monetary policy from Bush et al to reduce the trade defecit, it's tougher to make money building cars elsewhere since the strengthening of those local currencies are killing the margins when converted back to US dollars, the currency in which GM and Ford (and formerly Chrysler) report earnings.

[sakimano]

actually hate to burst your bubble but the Canadian factories always rank in the top quartile of almost every manufacturers quality/productivity metrics (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota/Lexus)

i.e. GM's number one factory for quality, productivity, profitability and safety is in OSHAWA, ONTARIO

granted, being the best GM factory is almost like winning the tallest midget award...but still...

Do I really have to explain.Ford/GM/Chrysler have plants in Canada that make lackluster vehicles.Those cars are then sold worldwide.So Canada makes tons of money off of taxation and raw materials sold,distribution etc .There is alot of Canadians doing shoddy work.I know this may hurt your feelings.I can't believe you can't figure out how Canada profits from them having factories there.

[BavarianAudi]

Do I really have to explain.Ford/GM/Chrysler have plants in Canada that make lackluster vehicles.Those cars are then sold worldwide.So Canada makes tons of money off of taxation and raw materials sold,distribution etc .There is alot of Canadians doing shoddy work.I know this may hurt your feelings.I can't believe you can't figure out how Canada profits from them having factories there.

ok so America should pay Toyota? cuz toyota has plants in America that manufacture vehicles.

[sakimano]

ok so America should pay Toyota? cuz toyota has plants in America that manufacture vehicles.

as does:

Toyota
Honda
Mercedes
BMW
Subaru
Hyundai


Pay up American byatches!

[MYDWAGON]

actually hate to burst your bubble but the Canadian factories always rank in the top quartile of almost every manufacturers quality/productivity metrics (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota/Lexus)

i.e. GM's number one factory for quality, productivity, profitability and safety is in OSHAWA, ONTARIO

granted, being the best GM factory is almost like winning the tallest midget award...but still...

I hate to burst your bubble but that quality is on 90 days of ownership.BFD.4 of the 10 worst cars listed by Forbes for 2008 are made in Canada.Wow your have the best GM plant.Your the best of the worst.All those Fireturds and Camaro's you guys made where quality and safe.

[MYDWAGON]

ok so America should pay Toyota? cuz toyota has plants in America that manufacture vehicles.

No but they shouldn't pay the big 3 either.Knowing our government they probably would