Why won't Mercedes compete with the S4/335?

[Tiesto]

I don't get it, in the C series there is no engine between 268 and 450. Why? I think it would compete well for those of us that want a fast and slightly more affordable/efficient car with one of those fantastic auto transmissions Mercedes is famous for. I wanted to go test drive the C300 but I just can't justify getting rid of the A4 for only 68 more horsepower plus losing Quattro. The C63 is out of the question with it's 6.1 V8...

[ed@mtl]

Doesn't the C300 comes in AWD as well?

[Tiesto]

Doesn't the C300 comes in AWD as well?

So? You can get an A4 with a 265 hp V6, that's what I think the C300 is really competing against. They need a lower end sport model.

[1lop2k5c]

The Merc C class now comes in 3 engines for NA

C300 w 228hp
C350 w 268hp
C63 w 451hp

So the C300 is really in the class with the A42.0 and a BMW 328. The C350 would be in class with the A4 3.2 and BMW 335. Wouldn't the S4 falls in the same catagory as the M3 and C63? or did Audi decided that the RS4 is better for the job.

[CONTROL TWO]

The Merc C class now comes in 3 engines for NA

C300 w 228hp
C350 w 268hp
C63 w 451hp

So the C300 is really in the class with the A42.0 and a BMW 328. The C350 would be in class with the A4 3.2 and BMW 335. Wouldn't the S4 falls in the same catagory as the M3 and C63? or did Audi decided that the RS4 is better for the job.

lol @ 335 and 3.2 being lumped together.. maybe look at some actual data before posting nonsense like this

[GQ//S4]

The Merc C class now comes in 3 engines for NA

C300 w 228hp
C350 w 268hp
C63 w 451hp

So the C300 is really in the class with the A42.0 and a BMW 328. The C350 would be in class with the A4 3.2 and BMW 335. Wouldn't the S4 falls in the same catagory as the M3 and C63? or did Audi decided that the RS4 is better for the job.

The Rs4 is Audi's M3/AMG responce tool. The s4 is, well, I don't really know where that falls into the picture anymore.

[-Audi_tuning-]

test drove the 350, only in an auto, and the 300 and afterwards I ordered my new audi haha if felt cheap and btw , 2.0 is to the 300 the 3.2 is to the 350 and the 63 is to the rs4 and the s4 is just for fun hahaha

[absolutegtr]

2.0 is for 328i
3.0 if for 330i
S4 is for 335i
RS4 is for M3

Mercedes come in auto so there for pansies

[1lop2k5c]

lol @ 335 and 3.2 being lumped together.. maybe look at some actual data before posting nonsense like this

You r kidding right? why m'i silly for classing it like that, almost all auto mags out there actually compare a 335 sedan with the new A4 3.2. I know that the performance number for the 3.2 is lower than a 335 but they are in the same class and price range. Go look at a 3.2 S package and price out a 335 sedan and tell me that they are not close in price range.

[1lop2k5c]

2.0 is for 328i
3.0 if for 330i
S4 is for 335i
RS4 is for M3

Mercedes come in auto so there for pansies

*sigh* there is one in every forum.

[SebringSilver]

*sigh* there is one in every forum.

LOL

Your C55 would eat his A4 for breakfast, so let him wallow in his ignorance.

[sakimano]

It's all Audi's fault, OP

They launched the B5 RS4 years ago and it murdered the M3 and C32. So everyone got nuts, and tried to catch up. C55 showed up and the 339hp M3 as well.

Then, Audi got more nuts, and launched the B7 RS4 in 2005. Insanity. So E92 M3 and C63 showed up to keep pace/outpace the RS4.

Unfortunately they launched RS4, but kept selling S4. Didn't make any sense. Rather than do the smart thing and using the RS4 setup in the already existing S4, they created a new model. Mercedes and BMW did NOT do the same. BMW just made the 330i better...which is what the 335i is.

So...Audi makes this insane RS4 and cannibalizes it's own S4...not so smart because the S4 is no longer as differentiated from the A4. BMW and Mercedes, recognizing Audi's folly, don't bite. They just continue going about their business with the same models they've basically had for years. Don't forget Lexus in the mix...they launched the IS350 right around the time the 335i was on the drawing board...it delivered performance numbers that forced BMW's hand (IS350: 0-60 in 4.9 secs...306hp). This was paired with the IS250, and eventually the IS-F at 414hp etc. etc.

So...conclusion is that AUDI created the RS4 monster, which widened the gap between A4/C class/3 series and their respective sport line models (S/RS, AMG and M)

now Audi North America has 4 models, BMW has 3, Mercedes has 3 and Lexus has 3.

A4 2.0t, 3.2, S4 4.2 (now V6T), RS4 (cancelled for B8)
3 Series 328, 335 and M3
C class C300, C350, C63
Lexus IS250, IS350, IS-F

Audi's the weird one!

[tomlafS4]

^And that, friends, is what we call hitting the nail on the head.

Perfect response +1

[Tiesto]

It's all Audi's fault, OP

They launched the B5 RS4 years ago and it murdered the M3 and C32. So everyone got nuts, and tried to catch up. C55 showed up and the 339hp M3 as well.

Then, Audi got more nuts, and launched the B7 RS4 in 2005. Insanity. So E92 M3 and C63 showed up to keep pace/outpace the RS4.

Unfortunately they launched RS4, but kept selling S4. Didn't make any sense. Rather than do the smart thing and using the RS4 setup in the already existing S4, they created a new model. Mercedes and BMW did NOT do the same. BMW just made the 330i better...which is what the 335i is.

So...Audi makes this insane RS4 and cannibalizes it's own S4...not so smart because the S4 is no longer as differentiated from the A4. BMW and Mercedes, recognizing Audi's folly, don't bite. They just continue going about their business with the same models they've basically had for years. Don't forget Lexus in the mix...they launched the IS350 right around the time the 335i was on the drawing board...it delivered performance numbers that forced BMW's hand (IS350: 0-60 in 4.9 secs...306hp). This was paired with the IS250, and eventually the IS-F at 414hp etc. etc.

So...conclusion is that AUDI created the RS4 monster, which widened the gap between A4/C class/3 series and their respective sport line models (S/RS, AMG and M)

now Audi North America has 4 models, BMW has 3, Mercedes has 3 and Lexus has 3.

A4 2.0t, 3.2, S4 4.2 (now V6T), RS4 (cancelled for B8)
3 Series 328, 335 and M3
C class C300, C350, C63
Lexus IS250, IS350, IS-F

Audi's the weird one!

Since when was the B8 RS4 cancelled? Why is Audi wierd for offering more slections to buyers instead of forcing them to go for their top of the line 70k+ model? Looks like MB is thumbing it's nose as us slightly less wealthy sports car enthusiasts, they can kiss my ass.

[BlackSpeed2.0t]

lol!! new s4 is to compete with 335 simple as that .. Both audi and bmw AND MB have Models MAny models you have failed to mention..
3.2 competes with the 328 and is350 .. to think the is350 is out there for the 335 is a JOKE! they built that knowing if you tune it you get 50+ hp.. which is what they expect out of this new S4 with a power pulley. close to 400Hp

[A6.S-line]

I don't get it, in the C series there is no engine between 268 and 450. Why? I think it would compete well for those of us that want a fast and slightly more affordable/efficient car with one of those fantastic auto transmissions Mercedes is famous for. I wanted to go test drive the C300 but I just can't justify getting rid of the A4 for only 68 more horsepower plus losing Quattro. The C63 is out of the question with it's 6.1 V8...

I don't think MB realized the kinda reception the N54 TT I6 would get in the 335i and other cars, which if anything is under-rated at 300hp/300tq. It's not just the numbers, after all Lexus and others came out with 3-series competitors with the same HP figures on paper. The media and buzz reception of the N54 must have been better than even BMW could have expected (it won numerous "engine of the year" awards).

Not to mention developing engines, chassis and cars overall takes so much time, the W204 C-class must have been in its proverbial 9th month before MB figured out what BMW had up its sleeve.

And it's not just the C-class that has this problem. C350 vs. 335i, CLK350 vs. 335 coupe, E350 vs. 535i, SLK350 vs 335 cabrio. If the N54 is added to the X5, it will make the ML350 cringe as well.

[A6.S-line]

PS: the C63 and other 63 series AMGs have 6.2L engines. They are labeled 63s as an homage to the W109 300SEL 6.3, which is often regarded as the first super saloon or hi-performance sedan.

[1lop2k5c]

lol!! new s4 is to compete with 335 simple as that .. Both audi and bmw AND MB have Models MAny models you have failed to mention..
3.2 competes with the 328 and is350 .. to think the is350 is out there for the 335 is a JOKE! they built that knowing if you tune it you get 50+ hp.. which is what they expect out of this new S4 with a power pulley. close to 400Hp

You are thinking about the aftermarket tunability of the engine. How is the 3.2 compete with the 328? Out of the 3 (3.2, is350, 328), the 328 is under performance and in the wrong "price" bracket class. I dont think manufactures consider how aftermarket tuners can tune their engines before they release a car to compete in the same price point and class. Note that it was the IS350 that came out with its 306hp way before BMW switching from its 330i 255hp to the new 335i which makes 300hp. For now, in the 48-50K car braket, the 335 seems to hold its best out of a C350, A4 3.2, and IS350. So I guess you can place the new S4 for those who wants just a little more performance than an 3.2.

On another note, the new SLK350 this year received a revised 3.5 which gives it 300hp as well. My guess this revised engine will make it into the C as well as the new E.

[SebringSilver]

I think the whole question is flawed. Why must car companies follow rigid guidelines as to which model is the exact counterpart of its rival's? Consider the following:

Mercedes Benz

C230 = 201 hp
C300 = 228 hp
C350 = 268 hp
C63 = 451 hp

BMW

323i = 200 hp
328i = 230 hp
335i = 300 hp
M3 = 414 hp

Audi

2.0T = 211 hp
3.2Q = 265 hp
S4 = 330 hp
RS4 = ?

Even though there is some degree of parity in engine output if you look at the various tiers of what's offered in these three class of cars, there is still enough differentiation amongst them in terms of technology, drivetrain, and most importantly, pricing, to give car buyers plenty of food for thought when it comes to selecting what's right for him/herself.

After considering all the options, my 2006 S4 actually cost more than my 2009 C63. Is my S4 better than my C63? I don't think so. Is it different? Definitely.

Horsepower is only part of the equation. There's still lots of other factors to consider.

[A4A4A4]

Wouldn't they compare like this:

A4 2.0T 200hp - BMW 323i 200hp - MB C230 201hp - Lexus IS250 204hp

A4 3.2 255hp - BMW 328i 230hp - MB C300 228hp

S4 340hp - BMW 335i 300hp - MB C350 268hp - Lexus IS350 306hp

RS4 420hp - BMW M3 414hp - MB C63 AMG 451hp - Lexus IS-F 416hp

Things get a little weird in the 3rd category down, but other than that there seems to be pretty equal competition.

[-Audi_tuning-]

Now Im just throwing this out there.... who really cares? I mean seariously this isnt a pissing contest, each car has its own positives and negatives, and there is not clear best, if there was then no one would get any of the other cars.... So instead of trying to figure out who has the most hp to the crank which means next to nothing,(track times, dyno figures, skidpad, and slolem is where the real numbers are) just go drive ur damn cars and be happy with the flippin choice u made...

-->on a side note, to the owner of the c63AMG, do you think the interior seems a little on the cheap side, I looked at at 350 and hated the interior compared to my audi, and no power lumbar kinda just made me say, "this is how much?".... I mean I think that engine is nasty and the car looks killer, but I just couldnt get myself to give up my interior haha.... also, what do you think of the transmission, I mean I myself have too much fun with my clutch to let it go, but my daily is an automatic, and Im just wondering how u like it in a sports car, I hated autos cause I feel like they dont shift when I want em to, have they taken care of that issue???

[-Audi_tuning-]

PS: only said what needed to be said so that this thread doesnt become a 10 page discussion of whats better lol, we will be stuck in a deadlock for the rest of our lives if this keeps going lol

[A4A4A4]

Now Im just throwing this out there.... who really cares? I mean seariously this isnt a pissing contest, each car has its own positives and negatives, and there is not clear best, if there was then no one would get any of the other cars.... So instead of trying to figure out who has the most hp to the crank which means next to nothing,(track times, dyno figures, skidpad, and slolem is where the real numbers are) just go drive ur damn cars and be happy with the flippin choice u made...

I think you completely missed the point of this thread if that's how you interpreted it. I don't think anyone has been saying "Oh, Audi's the best." or "No, BMW is way better." I think people are simply just finding out where there car fits in to the mix and seeing how their car stacks up against it's direct competition. Obviously we all enjoy our Audi's or else we probably wouldn't be on this forum, now would we?

[SebringSilver]

-->on a side note, to the owner of the c63AMG, do you think the interior seems a little on the cheap side, I looked at at 350 and hated the interior compared to my audi, and no power lumbar kinda just made me say, "this is how much?".... I mean I think that engine is nasty and the car looks killer, but I just couldnt get myself to give up my interior haha.... also, what do you think of the transmission, I mean I myself have too much fun with my clutch to let it go, but my daily is an automatic, and Im just wondering how u like it in a sports car, I hated autos cause I feel like they dont shift when I want em to, have they taken care of that issue???

I wasn't aware there is no power lumbar adjustment on the C350. I definitely have it on the C63 though, and there are 3 different zones for just the lumbar adjustment alone. The AMG seats on the C63 are significantly more supportive than the S4's Recaros, but both use really good quality napa leather.

As for the rest of the interior, there's probably an equal amount of hard plastic in the Mercedes as there is in my S4, but my S4 has loads of carbon fibre in the interior, whereas the C63 would have cost me an extra C$5,800 to get it (you can only get the carbon fibre interior when you order the Performance Package, and even then, there aren't that many pieces). So I didn't get any carbon fibre in the Mercedes, but it's got the Black Bird's Eye wood instead, which is also very nice.

The tactile feel of the switchgear in the C63 is superior to the S4's, and even little things such as the carpet is better. The S4 does have heated rear seats though, as compared to the C63's 3-zone Thermotronic HVAC system (which is in lieu of heated rear seats). The biggest weakness for the C63 is there isn't a 12-volt power outlet anywhere near the driver's position, so it's a real chore if I want to charge my cell phones without resorting to using the cigarette lighter. The biggest weakness of the S4's interior is its centre armrest which, when lowered, impedes your ease of manipulating the gearshift and/or deploying the handbrake.

You also asked about the 7-speed auto transmission in the Mercedes. It's an amazing gearbox, even though it's an automatic. If you're in C (for comfort) mode or in S (for sport) mode, and you use the paddles to change gears, the gearbox holds that gear until your next articulation. With the Audi's Tiptronic, if you use the paddles while in fully-automatic mode and you don't make any other gearchange subsequently, the tranny goes back to full automatic mode. I guess I prefer the C63's programming in this respect more.

Oh, and when in manual mode on the C63 and you're downshifting, it double clutches, and I would say that the sound of the accompanying throttle blip is quite tantalizing.

Honestly, both cars are really quite excellent, and I'm very glad I have both.

[Tiesto]

I don't think MB realized the kinda reception the N54 TT I6 would get in the 335i and other cars, which if anything is under-rated at 300hp/300tq. It's not just the numbers, after all Lexus and others came out with 3-series competitors with the same HP figures on paper. The media and buzz reception of the N54 must have been better than even BMW could have expected (it won numerous "engine of the year" awards).

Not to mention developing engines, chassis and cars overall takes so much time, the W204 C-class must have been in its proverbial 9th month before MB figured out what BMW had up its sleeve.

And it's not just the C-class that has this problem. C350 vs. 335i, CLK350 vs. 335 coupe, E350 vs. 535i, SLK350 vs 335 cabrio. If the N54 is added to the X5, it will make the ML350 cringe as well.

LOL "developing engines and chassis takes too much time" well then they shouldn't be in the car business. If MB can't keep up in the performance sector and can't make good interiors or a drivetrain, why would I pay 60k for one?

[sakimano]

lol!! new s4 is to compete with 335 simple as that .. Both audi and bmw AND MB have Models MAny models you have failed to mention..
3.2 competes with the 328 and is350 .. to think the is350 is out there for the 335 is a JOKE! they built that knowing if you tune it you get 50+ hp.. which is what they expect out of this new S4 with a power pulley. close to 400Hp

umm, yeah...these guys are building cars based on 'tuning potential'...are you fking nuts????

for every car in this class that is sold and modded, 19 are left BONE STOCK.

the manufacturers don't give a fk about you tuners...they just want to sell cars that drive off the lot competitive for the real market...stock.

[sakimano]

Since when was the B8 RS4 cancelled?

since Audi AG said 'no RS4...just RS5, RS6 and maybe TTRS'

Why is Audi wierd for offering more slections to buyers instead of forcing them to go for their top of the line 70k+ model? Looks like MB is thumbing it's nose as us slightly less wealthy sports car enthusiasts, they can kiss my ass.

When I said Audi is the weird one I just meant they're the ones who created this, not Mercedes. You imply Mercedes isn't competing, but it's not Mercedes that created the gap...Audi did. Plus, Mercedes doesn't have the sport-saloon heritage in its C class...it's really an entry level luxo-mobile. What has driven sales of the C class traditionally (according to Mercedes) isn't what's under the hood...it's what's on it (their logo). The C32/43/55/63 was a response to M3, but really the C class has never been ANYTHING like the 3 series which was always a proper sports car in a 4 door saloon body.

[sakimano]

you referenced a couple of models that we (Canada) have that they (USA) don't have

this discussion was mostly centred around the US market.

if we really want to list all the models, bust out the Euro spec cars...there are about 6 models of each A4, 3 series and C class.

[SebringSilver]

LOL "developing engines and chassis takes too much time" well then they shouldn't be in the car business. If MB can't keep up in the performance sector and can't make good interiors or a drivetrain, why would I pay 60k for one?

Well, you wouldn't, I suppose. If you honestly felt that Mercedes Benz can't keep up in terms of performance, doesn't make good interiors and transmissions, AND for you those factors are deal breakers, you probably wouldn't pay $60K for one, or perhaps any other price either.

I agree with Sakimano when he says many Mercedes purchasers tend to buy what's ON the hood rather than what's UNDER the hood. I've been driving for 26 years, and like a lot of people on the boards here, could probably afford to buy a Mercedes instead of an Audi. But nothing Mercedes had to offer prior to the C63 really moved me. It's not that Mercedes doesn't make fast cars, they do. AMGs can really move, and their suspensions are absolutely rock steady at speeds that would make most other cars tremble. But the company's image was always a bit more stoic than I liked. Then I walked into the dealership across the street from the Audi dealership when I was dropping off the A3 for servicing, sat inside the C63, took it out for a test drive, and I was sold.

Now, driving two cars, one from Mercedes, and one from Audi, that are basically designed to do very similar things (both being high-performance sports sedans with entry-level luxury appointments) back to back on a regular basis, I have to say the Mercedes has been a surprise. In every measure of what's important to ME, the C63 trumps the S4.

The only areas where the S4 is objectively better than the C63 are its Quattro all-wheel-drive, slightly less embarrassing fuel consumption, and a marginally bigger trunk.

When choosing between cars like these, and indeed the C Class, A4, and 3 Series, in any iteration, you have to ask yourself what's important to YOU, because there will always be some areas that one or the other will exhibit superiority, and no car will be better at everything than its rivals.

Sorry for the long post.

[SebringSilver]

you referenced a couple of models that we (Canada) have that they (USA) don't have

this discussion was mostly centred around the US market.

if we really want to list all the models, bust out the Euro spec cars...there are about 6 models of each A4, 3 series and C class.

If you were referring to my earlier post, you're right. My apologies for the oversight.

[vinny.dtw]

This is like beating a dead horse.

[1lop2k5c]

since Audi AG said 'no RS4...just RS5, RS6 and maybe TTRS'



When I said Audi is the weird one I just meant they're the ones who created this, not Mercedes. You imply Mercedes isn't competing, but it's not Mercedes that created the gap...Audi did. Plus, Mercedes doesn't have the sport-saloon heritage in its C class...it's really an entry level luxo-mobile. What has driven sales of the C class traditionally (according to Mercedes) isn't what's under the hood...it's what's on it (their logo). The C32/43/55/63 was a response to M3, but really the C class has never been ANYTHING like the 3 series which was always a proper sports car in a 4 door saloon body.

"Sport saloon heritage", perhaps you forgot that the C was just a rebaged 190E series. But then AMG doesn have the same sport philosophy as the M brand. Ones with lux and then sport, and the other is sport then lux, depends on what you prefered.

Although I do think that 50% of the people now buying their cars because of what is on the hood. It is a trend, which is exactly what the car makers want and are trying to achieved. You have motorsports programs from each of the car makers so that they can claimed more fame to sell more cars. That is one of the factor why they poured money into racing.

[-Audi_tuning-]

I think you completely missed the point of this thread if that's how you interpreted it. I don't think anyone has been saying "Oh, Audi's the best." or "No, BMW is way better." I think people are simply just finding out where there car fits in to the mix and seeing how their car stacks up against it's direct competition. Obviously we all enjoy our Audi's or else we probably wouldn't be on this forum, now would we?

My apologies I was way to intoxicated last night to be posting, and yet I did.... very sorry guys...

[A4A4A4]

My apologies I was way to intoxicated last night to be posting, and yet I did.... very sorry guys...

Hahahah, no worries, it happens to the best of us. However, I must commend you for actually being able to make sense and use proper spelling and grammar while sloshed.

[Tiesto]

since Audi AG said 'no RS4...just RS5, RS6 and maybe TTRS'



When I said Audi is the weird one I just meant they're the ones who created this, not Mercedes. You imply Mercedes isn't competing, but it's not Mercedes that created the gap...Audi did. Plus, Mercedes doesn't have the sport-saloon heritage in its C class...it's really an entry level luxo-mobile. What has driven sales of the C class traditionally (according to Mercedes) isn't what's under the hood...it's what's on it (their logo). The C32/43/55/63 was a response to M3, but really the C class has never been ANYTHING like the 3 series which was always a proper sports car in a 4 door saloon body.

I wouldn't blame Audi for outpreforming its competitors while offering more selection to it's customers. Even if Audi/BMW/Lexus didn't exhist and I was stuck with buying a Benz I would want something faster than a NA V6 without haivng to get a ridiculously huge V8.

[-Audi_tuning-]

Hahahah, no worries, it happens to the best of us. However, I must commend you for actually being able to make sense and use proper spelling and grammar while sloshed.

I type really slow when Im in a less than slower so I can spell, like right now haha... O how I love college haha

[CONTROL TWO]

You r kidding right? why m'i silly for classing it like that, almost all auto mags out there actually compare a 335 sedan with the new A4 3.2. I know that the performance number for the 3.2 is lower than a 335 but they are in the same class and price range. Go look at a 3.2 S package and price out a 335 sedan and tell me that they are not close in price range.

we're talking performance.. nice try tho

[B6JoeS4]

I raced a girl in a C300 4MATIC a couple of nights ago in my 02 A4 3.0 quattro tip. the first 50 yards, i had her by half a car length and then at about 100 yards we were tied and then she eventually pulled away slowly.

[b5v6]

LOL "developing engines and chassis takes too much time" well then they shouldn't be in the car business. If MB can't keep up in the performance sector and can't make good interiors or a drivetrain, why would I pay 60k for one?

wow, that's completely ignorant, i'm going to assume you don't really believe that statement and you are just generalizing. i mean just because mercedes does not currently have a ~300hp engine couldn't mean they cannot keep up, right?

[Tiesto]

wow, that's completely ignorant, i'm going to assume you don't really believe that statement and you are just generalizing. i mean just because mercedes does not currently have a ~300hp engine couldn't mean they cannot keep up, right?

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Its no wonder MB sales have slumped recently, they're apparantly not in touch with the rest of the world.