Aftermarket Fuel pump thread...insights and impressions, etc

[Quattro]

Well, today after reading posts and my desire for one, I was hoping to make a post which will help our fellow AZers and myself with options for fuel pumps and personal experience pros and cons (besides price). Ill start off by saying, I dont have one, so this is not a review of one, but just trying to enlighten myself about them


Anyhow, my research will start by searching and Ill post what I find, but I know many people are running some type of aftermarket fuel pump.

A good pic I found;





General information:

This from websearching and quoted from APR:


If the 130 was causing the fplv to stay almost constantly open, the fuel pump would be working like mad to make pressure and there would be all kinds of fluctuations in the rail pressure. When you lift, the injector on time goes to zero and therefore pressure in the rail spikes untill the valve opens. You would be able to see fp logs with a lot of spikes and dips as the fplv opens and closes. The solenoid on the pump is very busy regulating the fp in the rail. When the fplv opens, its like running over a fire hydrant in comparison to its effect on releasing the pressure in the rail. The solenoid on the pump is doing the work of regulating all of the fp in the rail. - Keith@APR



" 1. Our fuel pump is capable of supporting over 500hp (see the graph on the APR website). None of our fuel pump tunes are making near 500hp due to OEM turbo, OEM injector, and OEM knock limitations. So for our fuel pump files where the APR fuel pump is used, we are actually using less pump solenoid duty cycle than an OEM pump because of our increased flow rates.

2. The non-fuel pump tunes actually put more stress on your OEM pump solenoid based on the fact that it is running closer to max flow capacity during the mid-range. This is dictated by marketing demands for good torque and power. However, we have tuned our non-fuel pump files with specific attention to not running the pump at its very limit. This is the reason why there is more area under the curve for the fuel pump file when compared to the non-fuel-pump file. The area under the curve comes from the fact that the APR pump is capable of supporting demand without coming near its absolute flow limit.

3. Fuel rail pressure is mechanically limited by the pressure relieve valve located in the rail. This is a “pop-off” relief valve that will bleed off rail pressure that goes beyond factory specifications. Therefore, give that we are running fuel pressures within this factory limit, and the fact that our pump has more flow for every stroke, this is another reason why our pump is running at less duty cycle than an OEM pump. Fuel pressure is what creates the majority of the load in this system. You can forget about spring pressure and the mass of the piston when you have 120+ bar on the other side of the piston. Since we are running OEM pressures, the chambers of the pump, pump solenoid, pump pulsation damper, etc. are all just fine. " - Mike@APR


----- Things to look for are cam lobe wear, it appears that no matter what fuel pump you use, you will experience cam lobe wear. I have been reading a thread and chris from revo has been commenting about cam lobe with high fuel pumps. Will post more after I am done.

Brands that are out there (no specific order):

APR (APR FSI Fuel Pump)

(from reading) - it appears that APR software in combination their fuel pumps are requesting 130 bar, which can cause excessive cam lobe and failure to pumps.

------------------------------------


Stasis (requires bt, dont think they will sell separate)



-------------------------------------

AWE (requires bt, dont think they will sell separate)


--------------------------------------


VF (believe they have one and selling with bt)




-----------------------------------------------

KMD (KMD FSI Internals upgrade)

This is information quoted from phill@bsh (link to original post)s:
KMD has been very good about sharing information with me about thier new pump offerings.

First and foremost, this is not an AT pump in any way shape or form. This is a 100% KMD pump rebuild kit.

KMD has used hardened tool steel for the construction of its pump, the material and finishing decisions were to made to specifically combat expansion.

KMD will be offering a 1 year warranty on all the parts included in their kit.

In order to achieve the best possible performance from your fuel pump kit, its is important that you have the most updated factory fuel pump and also have your cam lobe inspected for any unusual wear.

The most updated part numbers for the factory fuel pump is 06F 127 025 J, pumps ending with H will also be ok. No warranty claims for earlier pump revisions will be accepted.

This part number is located on the black plastic sensor on the pump itself.

APR customers should be warned that APR's fuel pump programming is extremely aggressive and may lead to a failure of the fuel pump. This is an "at your own risk" scenario. the non fuel pump specific software is not as aggressive and therefore can be used with the same confidence as other programs.

KMD has also released 40% larger FSI injectors, these injectors have currently supported over 400whp on an FSI motor and will very shortly be making there way into my car.

My opinion...I still dont know what to think. No matter what we are all going to guinea pigs on some level. Theyve got 8 months and thousands of miles on their test cars. Ive uploaded the parts to the site, theres no way to know for sure without trying.

-Phill
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=833




-------------------------------

Autotech (AutoTech Fuel pump)



-------------------------------


I also know that various other companies sell the internals which you could use your stock fuel pump and make it into a high fuel pump.Another thing I know is any FSI fuel pump will work, which makes Audi/VW fuel pumps interchangeable.

Anyhow, hopefully this thread will turn into something positive and anyone who is interested in one can learn.

(Yes, I will search as well and post what I find, also many updates will be added/removed when new information is found or corrected)

-Randy +1 for the community and a great thread =)

[cyanidecologne]

Im thinking about buying the KMD pump if audi cant fix my fuel cut issues (its at the dealer right now going on day 3) If i get it i will post up my experience. Does anyone have this on yet? Ive seen that a number of people have the Autotech pump but with the fact that its just internals and KMD offers a 1 year warranty regardless of programmer i dont see the reason to pay $350 vs $250.

[cyanidecologne]

Also i figure i can take that extra $100 and install KMDs upgraded cam lobe http://kmdtuning.com/store/index.php...productId=1426

[AWDTURBO]

I no my buddy with a mkv gti with the kmd fuel pump with no problem

[Elohite]

Is anyone running the KMD on our cars? Pump+Cam for $350. Id do that.

[Quattro]

^^searching =)

[ElCapitan464]

ya im intrested in the kmd fuel pump too, has anyone put one on their audi yet though

[audidrver]

+1 dude. More pump talk is needed here

[audidrver]

Is anyone running the KMD on our cars? Pump+Cam for $350. Id do that.

Its not a new cam. Its the cam follower. That part rests on the lobe. Good idea but it seams like that would put more wear on the lobe.

[viperdsa]

Don't get the KMD injectors that come with ther fuel kit. It turns out that the are just factory RS4 injectors, and they have an incorrect spray pattern. Just get S3 injectors if your going to do injectors at all.
Huge thread over on vwvortex about it
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4080220&page=1

[Quattro]

audidrver thanks man, its been awhile!

its very very interesting about the fuel pump along with the cam lobe wear and how even with stock people are having problems with cam lobe, as well as all the people have problems even with stock fuel pump. All the new revisions and TSB for cam lobe.

I gotta write up what cam lobe does(is), the follower, etc, so people can have better understanding. I am still reading threads from march of this year, lets hope some problems have been solved over the last few months. I know my tuner said to wait on fuel pumps based on all the problems.

Back to reading! hehe

-randy

[stupidfast31]

subscribed. Thanks Quattro and all others that add in with more info.

[davis449]

I went APR because I don't trust myself, anyone I know, or a mechanic whose never rebuilt the FSI pump before to install a "kit" in my OEM fuel pump. One thing I believe about APR is that they do extensive R&D and that their techs\engineers that do these types of modifications are experienced enough to do so repeatedly, therefore resulting in a better product. I am well aware that there are other people who are running the KMD and Autotech pumps who paid a lot less and have no problems, but when it comes to shit like this, I just don't trust either of them.

I posted this in another thread, but I had a lengthy conversation with my tuner (who is a VERY good mechanic) and even he said he won't rebuild them. He went over the tolerances of the pump with me and explained the engineering that goes into them and how delicate the rebuild process is and that's what convinced me going with APR was the right way to go. I have no problem with the $600 I spent.

[Elohite]

You got the APR pump for $600 ?

[Latin Audi]

Thank you Quattro! I def want to learn more on this topic

[redhott06]

i believe kmd and autotech are practically identical..i think kmd just re-brands it..dont quote me on that though.

[Quattro]

^^from the research from last night, will do more later.

kmd and autotech basically have the same design (not much deviation is possible) But the kmd has a different metal structure and pivoting motion. Ill get an exact quote and throw that up to the main post later today.

There was discussion between kmd and autotech, which had to do with the design in the long metal piece, which when it is more dense it creates some lag or some sort, once again dont quote me on this, till i post more info on this (will edit this post later)

interesting stuff!

-randy

[Keith@APR]

I thought some images might be helpful for everyone too.

[Keith@APR]

You got the APR pump for $600 ?

We offer a rebuild service whereas you send us your pump and we rebuild it with our internals and then test it our test stand.

We are able to verify run in to insure no seizing or other failure, flow rate and pump efficiency with our test stand. We assign an unique serial number to each pump whether complete or a rebuild and provide a lifetime warranty.

[Elohite]

Interesting. Do we have to send the pump out for a rebuild or do you have authorized dealers qualified for that?

[davis449]

Interesting. Do we have to send the pump out for a rebuild or do you have authorized dealers qualified for that?

You send it to APR for rebuild. Read his post again and then read mine from earlier.

[Elohite]

Nice. what was the turn around time?

[Keith@APR]

Nice. what was the turn around time?

Same day as of late!

[Nico]

audidrver thanks man, its been awhile!

its very very interesting about the fuel pump along with the cam lobe wear and how even with stock people are having problems with cam lobe, as well as all the people have problems even with stock fuel pump. All the new revisions and TSB for cam lobe.

I gotta write up what cam lobe does(is), the follower, etc, so people can have better understanding. I am still reading threads from march of this year, lets hope some problems have been solved over the last few months. I know my tuner said to wait on fuel pumps based on all the problems.

Back to reading! hehe

-randy

Unfortunately none of the problems have been solved. Everyone checks their CAM follower every oil service (5000 miles) and replaces it if necessary. Most people replace their Low Pressure fuel sensor.

[davis449]

Nice. what was the turn around time?

Typically they have a 24 hr. turn around time, you take it to the shop and get it removed and they overnight with AM delivery, APR rebuild in the morning\afternoon and overnight back to you. 3-4 days without a car, unless you have a nice mechanic like I do who will wait for 3:00 PM delivery of the part and let you pick it up after 8:00 PM. There was a mix up with mine so I was without a car for like 6 days, but hey, shit happens...luckily I have a beater car and don't have to worry about not having a vehicle. The anticipation was the "pissed off" factor for me though...but like I said, I have it now and who cares, it was worth the wait.

[Keith@APR]

Unfortunately none of the problems have been solved. Everyone checks their CAM follower every oil service (5000 miles) and replaces it if necessary. Most people replace their Low Pressure fuel sensor.

Here is a document we provide with each pump sale that explains installation, any pertinent TSB's and tips for checking the cam lobe and follower.

http://www.goapr.com/VW/support/fsi_...stallation.pdf

[RedS-line]

great thread. would like to hear more about the kmd cam follower besides what little info is listed in the catalog on it. how long is it supposed to last for?

[audidrver]

On the site the kmd says its supposed to last approximately 20k longer than the stock. It is thicker than stock also.

[Quattro]

great thread. would like to hear more about the kmd cam follower besides what little info is listed in the catalog on it. how long is it supposed to last for?

really quick, the cam follower and cam lobe has no set time frame for lasting. everything is very contingent on other factors, fuel pump, any abnormal problems, etc. For some, it could last 1k, 2k, 10k...improper installation, etc all effect the life of the cam follower.


ill update original post later tonight.

-randy

[cam]

kmd fuel pump and b7rs4 injectors

[Quattro]

sorry for the late update, more to come tomorrow =)