would you let the "Big 3" fall?

[Maverick]

The economy may not have hit its lowest point, all of us don't know when and how bad it will get.
Dow Jones keeps on dropping with all the creditors worry. The "Big 3" might be gone if they don't get any aid. The discussion on whether we should bail them out or not is still going. This makes things worse......

What's your take on this topic? What would you do? let's not give any biased opinions.

Here is my take, I want the goverment to bail the "Big 3" out.

Reasons why

First, they have some cars that I really really love but this is not a good enough reason to bail them out.

Second, if they all fall the economy will take another major hit and we might now recover. "Big 3" falls will affect their parts suppliers, their own labor forces, etc. A lot of peole and business will suffer deeply because of the zigzag effect.

In this case, no one is going to contribute to the economy anymore. There won't be any "floating cash" in the economy system, we will have a desperately slow recovery or we will never recover.
What we need to do is put some "moving cash" in the economy system so the economy can move. Business and banks can keep running and people will have jobs for income.

I simply think the bail out is necessary because if we dont bail them out the economy may become disastrous.

there is the other side of the story. if the "Big 3" doesn't have any plans to make their cars better so they can outsell the Japs, then we helped them for nothing.

this move can also be misleading. the "big 3" will simply think the government will bail them out everytime they are in trouble because they are so big that the economy cannot take the hit if they fall. they won't do much to improve.

I agree, the cars that the "big 3" makes are not impressive at all. they aren't doing much to improve or their designers are retards.

Also, how the "big 3" pay its top level managements have to change. Last year when Ford lost X amount of dollars, CEO Allan Mullay made $34 millions if I remember that right. that's just insane, in what ways does he worth $34million!!!

another example by Ford's stupidity. they are cutting cost hard, however, they are not doing it right!!! they don't understand the simple term generalization. the parts such as door handles, they use different door handles on each of their models. how can that be cost saving!

Look at the Japs and our German cars, some parts on our cars are generalized which can save a lot of cost.

I still think we should bail them out because major changes will be needed if we bail them out. they cannot run their companies the same way as they use to.

so, tell me your opinions. would you want the short term pain or the long term pain?

p.s. I am simply giving my opinions and I am not trying to show that I know everything because no one does.

[tike0rz]

Let them fall. They are doing so many things wrong, a build from the ground up is needed. Our economy is fucked during this Obama term, not because of the president, but because of the science of our economy.

I don't want my tax dollars to go towards 3 failing companies just to prolong the effects of this recession. Let it happen, and lets get over it. The more we bailout, the longer the recession will be. Simple.

Look at Peter Schiff's take on our economy via YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfasc...eature=related

'Nuff said!

[Howard Hughes]

Why bail them out when their only interest seems to be maintaining their salary?....
I think everyone has seen them taking a 20 grand private jet flights all over...it's a slap in the face...

If anyone of them was serious they should pony up some of their 16 million dollar a year salary and put it into developing a car people want to buy...

[[email protected]]

^^^ QFT

I saw clips of the hearing and the comments thrown towards the CEOs were stinging

[Maverick]

yeah, I just read the other thread" the Big 3 debate" in the general chit chat section. It's really a hard decision to make.

[LampyB]

i'll have time for a detailed response later but if the big 3 fall almost all of southeast michigan will go with it. being from detroit it's almost unbelievable how many companies exist in michigan solely as suppliers for the auto industry. i'd have to say that almost 50% of people i know back home are in some way affiliated with them. if michigan is to truly fall, sh*t will hit the fan elsewhere from a ripple effect...

[ThirdStrike]

if they fall the huge contracts between the company and the unions are out the window. some good things will come out of it. one benefit probably being SOME FUCKING QA !

[Das General]

When am I gonna get a bailout?

What do I need to do to qualify? Build a company, make loads of money, act is if I am going to fail, then request somewhere between 25-700 billion to save me and the country?

I say, let 'em fail. If they can't get their act straight on their own, they don't deserve to be a business. Small businesses aren't getting this kind of bailout. People with no homes aren't receiving this bailout. Survival of the fittest.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

they cheated the public for decades let them go only issue is that we fall into the Euro and Jap hands they can raise prices as they wish

[Maverick]

yes, I agree with you guys. it's a tough call.

It's a shame that the CEOs of "big 3" went to D.C. with priate jets.
I don't care if the company have a policy for safety or not, they are just too fucking stupid to do that. I don't feel bad at all when they were blasted for flying private jets.
GM had to return two of its rental private jets, lol, they just don't know how to be smart!

cut their own salarys and put in the bail out plan that they need!

or let them fail.

fucking GM, Ford, and Chrysler. what a shame.

we should write a letter to the government or there should be a section in every major newspaper to show how the public feel towards them.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^here's the best part:

If ur an ex-CEO or ex-High position job guy u retire with a full salary, the old CEO's are still getting $25 million a year how sweet is that haha the guy sits at home he's like 90 makes 25 mils right there. I WANT THAT JOB!

[clconversion]

I heard the other day on the radio that GM cut Tiger Woods contact with Buick for 7 million a year I guess its a start haha

[Shak]

Let them fail. A bailout will mean everything they've done so far is OKAY and there is no real incentive to change. They can "Stay the course" and continue to make shit. If we don't bail them out, they are forced to re innovate.

[pilihp2]

I've noticed some problems.
if they all fall then we lose thousands. literally thousands of jobs.
if we do bail them out. they wont learn, they will keep making crappy cars, will keep paying their employees way too much money for what they do, and that 25 billion dollars could be used on alot of other things. not saving companies that suck.

[Monizzle]

As much as they deserve it, we need to bail them out simply so the economy doesn't fail completely. The government has already made guidelines and stipulations they have to meet by December 8th (I believe) in order to possibly receive the 25B.
They need to take a lesson from Japan Airlines CEO Nishimatsu.

http://www.truveo.com/CEO-takes-a-pay-cut/id/196851609

[TonyT]

Let 'em go. Way too many things going on in this economy to pick and choose who to bail out. And they will not learn, nor will this prevent it from happening again. People will still get laid off, factories are still going to make too many cars and dealerships are fighting to keep their inventory at a managable level.

Poor business ethics should not be rewarded or given another chance. I think this would only lead to continued poor judgements. Let the people who made these poor decisions actually be responsible for what theyve done.

Nobody is bailing the millions of people with late model vehicles that are worth about half of what they owe due to the poor economy.

[MarkChai]

I agree with Lampy B that the economic mpact is far greater than any of us could imagine if these 3 automakers go under, and Michigan won't be the only one hurting.

However, there is no bloody way that the US Government should simply fork over the money. There needs to be a detailed audit of all three automakers and their practices, and a plan for the complete restructuring of each automaker needs to be proposed.

Then MAYBE one, two or possibly all three can receive government money if it looks like they are worth saving, with major restrictions on how the money is used.

[t1demont1]

I think the big 3 should budget what they can, CEOs can still live off of 5-6million a year and survive. Once they show us what theyve done, then we should help them. However, we all know that they wont budge an inch, and the high up guys of the big 3 will be fine after this deppression wether the big 3 go down or not. In the end, no matter what happens, the upper class will be seperated even further from the middle/low income folks

[fitch303]

I'm ready for a new American car brand, when was the last high volume American brand made?

[dreamcar=rs4]

We should make a poll, but I think most of audizine is against any bailout whatsoever.

[JackalS4]

Great topic!

A real lose-lose situation, definitely hard to say...

I was really impressed with Obama's approach though - by telling them if they want any help they're going to have to present a heck of a better case with more details of exactly where the money is going etc.

Kind of a "let them earn it", if they can, approach.

Canada's all keen on bailing them out (more specifically, that frickin' Dalton McGuinty) because they provide the gov't with so much tax money. Nice.

I'd love to say get 'em outta there....but man the 2009 Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 are just so tempting...

[Red Baron]

Having the big 3 fail could possibly be the greatest thing to happen to our economy in a long time. We need a shakeup. Just because you are a big old company doesn't mean you can run a crappy business, loose money year after year and expect to stay in business.

American's have the idea of new car ownership shoved down their throat all the time. Buying a new car is the biggest money sink out there. Many people can't afford new cars but buy them anyway because they get an amazing 0% apr, (but 25 -50% depreciation).

Corvettes and mustangs won't just disappear off the face of the earth. The company will get sold off to another automaker during the bankruptcy. These popular lines will stay, even the name ford will stay is will just be owned by someone else. You know like vw and audi.

All the aging plants and employees will be tossed out with the trash. This is the sad part. Lots of people with no ability to work anywhere but an auto plant will be looking for a job. Hopefully Michigan Universities, will pitch in and re-educate these people. All the upper management will be out of a job. Nobody likes them anyway, they make good scapegoats.

The economy works just like nature, the strong survive and the weak do not.

[FLACO X3]

I work for a Dodge dealership and could potencially loose my job, BUT im sick of how these companies are run, they dont know what America needs in a car. A economic car doesnt have to be ugly, puting a HEMI in every car isnt the solution to every problem, ect. They dont deserve a bailout, although the financial sector is less deserving yet we gave them money .

[20AE428]

The big three are slow to move toward what people want. Why the hell were they still putting so much into big SUV's for so long. They should be forced to tighten their ship. and if smart cut salaries of management not workers. Slim production to models which make sense and away from sectors where they are getting smoked! This is business and no matter what your size you need to prove your worth something to the current consumer.

[MarkChai]

It is interesting how the finance industry and the auto industry have both held our government hostage in a way - "give us money or we'll let it all implode." How convenient.

The point has already been made, but those at the top won't be affected too much, and they obviously don't care what happens at the bottom of the ladder.

It could hurt our economy at first, but the outcome could be rather impressive if valid economic principles were to be applied to this situation.

What if the Big Three teamed up with the fledgling innovative U.S. auto companies (Tesla, etc) and let the smaller companies use the Big Three's established distribution networks and supply chain practices, maybe on a contract basis? Kind of like when a big telecommunications company invests in infrastructure and leases the use of it to other telecom companies.

[MYDWAGON]

I think the oil companies should bail out the big 3

[Trv06kviper]

Let them fail, successful companies will take over the plants and make them more productive and build cars that actually sell. I mean for example look at Atari for example. One of the fastest growing companies in America that pioneered the video game industry. Now, it's been split and sold to so many different companies its just a brand name. Like all empires they fall to make way for new ones.

[Maverick]

the poll

61% tax payers say no to the bail out,
39% says yes, I guess a lot of the 39% are from Auto unions.

let'e see what happens, the congress is debating.
the big 3 now is asking for 34 billions, WTF.

the CEOs went to capital hill in fuel efficient hybrids, lol, so pathetic.

[vtracer20]

currently with the plans that the big 3 submitted they agree if they get any bailout money they will take a $1 a year salary as CEO's.

I personally think they need to be restructured so i think they need to fail. They need better cars to even compete with Toyota and Honda in the future, you cant keep selling large vehicles with large engines and hope to live in this market....sorry

[Trv06kviper]

Well one of their problems is they invested wayy too much into that ethanol program while everyone else was working with hydrogen and electric technologies. I'd start packing up if I were them, they screwed up so many times I'm really surprised they lasted this long.

[Maverick]

i feel very engaged while watching the debate on C-SPAN this moring and still watching it now.
it's funny that the CEOs from the "Big 3" is sitting in the middle of the room and getting grilled.

everything went exactly what I expected. the CEOs bullshited most of the answers. the fucking politicians don't really stress the most important issue why the "Big 3" is losing market share. a lot of the answers are vague, not clear enough. no definite answer.

they need 34 billion dollars now, thye will need much much more in the very near future.
they said they might return to make profits in Next march, that's complete bullshit. how the fuck in the world are you gonna make positive revenue when 97% of their cars are shit and losing the competition to the Jap and Germans.
For Example, Toyota entered the market with their new Tundra pick up truck and it is destroying everyone else.

one of the most important issues with the big 3 is the cars they make, just dull, no quality, no excitement, a lot of no in their model line ups.
there are few bright spots but it's overshadowed by all of their negatives.
second, the management need to change. all of the 3 CEOs need to be fired. they don't know a damn thing how to run a car company. if they did know, the big 3 would not be the same as what they are now.

not only the CEOs but also the house speakers, some of their voice is not firm. they should not use word like" maybe, I guess" etc. this is a dead serious issue.

the CEOs kept on saying they will resturture, they will do this and that. most of the saying are pure bullshit.

there are many things I like to point out!!!.

if we don't bail them out, we will go down the drain with them.
if we do bail them out, we still go down but not as severe!!!

[G Men 08]

my vote is to let them fall... i would feel for the hardworking factory workers, but not the idiots that put them in this situation in the first place... taking jet rides at will.. earning 25 million a year cmon gimme a break.. and they call for aid because theyre going under.. good let em go, someone else will buy them out and keep the emplyees anyways.. and probably make a better product while theyre at it

[KiloByte]

Why should only the rich asshole bankers get the bailout? They're responsible for this mess in the first place, not helping the car companies is going to hurt the assembly line workers first.

[MarkChai]

currently with the plans that the big 3 submitted they agree if they get any bailout money they will take a $1 a year salary as CEO's.

Yeah, but what about their bonuses and other options? I heard that too and want to know the fine print.

[Trv06kviper]

If they get the money they'll just come back for more. They will not be able to turn a profit because they don't have a hold on their own market. It would literally mean every single car they sell for the next 2 decades has to sell like hotcakes, which they won't.

[keeganhartman]

Yeah you can't take promises from CEOs to not take money as a sign of sincerity on their behalf. Like said above, the CEOs, could care less about what they make salary wise because they could have $20 mil in bonuses or other sneaky bs coming their way.

[JackalS4]

GM just released this statement:

"While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you. At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster." (and more).

Wow! Interesting. True, but too little too late? Guilt tactic for gov't money? Finally realizing?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...ort_us_gm_ad_1

[JBM]

Why should only the rich asshole bankers get the bailout? They're responsible for this mess in the first place, not helping the car companies is going to hurt the assembly line workers first.

They aren't the only ones responsible. The American public is, but people don't want to blame themselves for being greedy about the American dream. Those that will suffer are those that lived within their means and read the fine print and now they have to pay for those greedy homeowners.

If somebody offers you a Ferrari and tells you can get it below market value if you lease it, but there is the possibility that your payments can end up going through the roof do you still buy it?

[JBM]

If they file for Chap 11 they are absolved of all contracts and it will allow themselves to reorganize. Just look at Delta.

[vtracer20]

Yeah, but what about their bonuses and other options? I heard that too and want to know the fine print.

apparently today they will get a bailout with someone watching them, they will get $1 a year salary. top 25 of the companies will not get bonus or golden parachutes.

Only person i feel for is the crysler ceo...he's only been there for a year and has been trying to change alot since being there. Fold and GM need to go.