K04's Obsolete??

[YMJ]

hey lets start a lil war of words!

be respectable and discuss! dont argue like lil infants!

ok now i wanna know if K04's are obsolete or will be in the future. i think they are on the way out, especially at the prices they are now!

cant someone make a GT25 or GT28 wtv size turbo kit that is cheaper than the kits available with K04's.. and so making the K04's obsolete!?!?


informative replies please

[Das General]

Depends if there is a demand for K04's.

[YMJ]

Depends if there is a demand for K04's.

if there are cheaper GT kits, the demand for KO4's would drop.

[Boris]

I mean you could make a pretty good argument that the KO4 techonology is outdated, but I don't think it will ever become obsolete, thats a bit extreme.

[blmlozz]

if there are cheaper GT kits, the demand for KO4's would drop.

I would hope there wouldn't be a cheaper GT kit.

a GT *kit* includes tubular custom manifolds, DP's, custom tuning and upgraded internals.. all things I wouldn't want to buy cheaply.

all you need for K04's are the turbos, inlets and... not even tuning really, anything else you need vs a stock car you should already have on your K03's..

[HighDesertAudi]

If the Tials weren't outrageously priced I'd say that K04's would be a thing of the past. But right now you can't really run much else for around $2500 (with inlets and hardware).

[Das General]

if there are cheaper GT kits, the demand for KO4's would drop.

It is not based on kits. It is based on how many K04 turbos Borg Warner produces or feels the need to produce.

GT kits have nothing to do with it. I thought the introduction of GT kits would lower the price of K04's, a while back. But that didn't occur.

The price of GT kits won't be coming down either.

[generationjdm]

Thats the problem, everyone wants a dirt cheap turbo kit but made from the best parts, materials and workmanship. I mean how can anyone compare or expect to pay the same for a gt kit as a set of k04ss? Actually if you where to add dps and manifolds to a k04 setup it would be more then gtss. I can tell you at the price some of the gt kits are right now the profit is less then 8.00 an hour, if you were to count the jigs and all the headaches and work along the way people would clearly see theres not a penny in profit and more like losing money even at 8k. Something to think about, with the gts you never really have to buy any of the rs4 parts like you do with k04s to make more power, that alone is like saving thousands.

Heres what you need to complete a GT kit mainly, theres some more small things but this is the bulk of it
QTY x 2 Schedule 10 Stainless Steel Manifolds
QTY x 2 44MM Tial V Band Waste Gates & All Hardware
QTY x 2 3 Inch Stainless Steel V Band Down Pipes & Clamps
QTY x 2 V Band Turbo Adapters
QTY x 2 Garrett GT Turbos
QTY x 2 Sets of Custom Aluminum Mandrel Bent Inlet Pipes & Hardware
QTY x 2 Kevlar Coolant Feed Lines & Fittings With High Temp Fire Sleeves
QTY x 2 High PSI Stainless Braided Oil Feed Lines & Adapters
QTY x 1 Drivers Side Coolant Return Adapter Line, Fittings & Fire Sleeve
QTY x 2 Exhaust Manifold Gaskets
QTY x 2 Turbo Flange Gaskets
QTY x 2 Oil Drain Gaskets
QTY x 2 Down Pipe Adapter Gaskets
QTY x 8 Harden Steel Turbo Bolts & Nuts
QTY x 10 Harden Steel Down Pipe Adapter To Turbo Bolts
QTY x 2 2.25” 4 Ply Silicon Couplers (Inlet Pipes)
QTY x 2 4 Ply 2.25” Silicon Couplers (Turbo to Charge Pipe)
QTY x 8 Worm Clamps (Inlet Pipes)
QTY x 2 T Bolt Clamps (Turbo To Charge Pipe)
QTY x 2 -3 Oil Restrictor (Turbos)
QTY x 4 Feet Of Vacuum Lines
QTY x 1 Foot of -14 Fire Sleeve

[B5A4Kevin]

the one disadvantage of the 2.7t: gotta buy 2 of everything :S

[4RingsCircus]

Thats the problem, everyone wants a dirt cheap turbo kit but made from the best parts, materials and workmanship. I mean how can anyone compare or expect to pay the same for a gt kit as a set of k04ss? Actually if you where to add dps and manifolds to a k04 setup it would be more then gtss. I can tell you at the price some of the gt kits are right now the profit is less then 8.00 an hour, if you were to count the jigs and all the headaches and work along the way people would clearly see theres not a penny in profit and more like losing money even at 8k. Something to think about, with the gts you never really have to buy any of the rs4 parts like you do with k04s to make more power, that alone is like saving thousands.

Heres what you need to complete a GT kit mainly, theres some more small things but this is the bulk of it
QTY x 2 Schedule 10 Stainless Steel Manifolds
QTY x 2 44MM Tial V Band Waste Gates & All Hardware
QTY x 2 3 Inch Stainless Steel V Band Down Pipes & Clamps
QTY x 2 V Band Turbo Adapters
QTY x 2 Garrett GT Turbos
QTY x 2 Sets of Custom Aluminum Mandrel Bent Inlet Pipes & Hardware
QTY x 2 Kevlar Coolant Feed Lines & Fittings With High Temp Fire Sleeves
QTY x 2 High PSI Stainless Braided Oil Feed Lines & Adapters
QTY x 1 Drivers Side Coolant Return Adapter Line, Fittings & Fire Sleeve
QTY x 2 Exhaust Manifold Gaskets
QTY x 2 Turbo Flange Gaskets
QTY x 2 Oil Drain Gaskets
QTY x 2 Down Pipe Adapter Gaskets
QTY x 8 Harden Steel Turbo Bolts & Nuts
QTY x 10 Harden Steel Down Pipe Adapter To Turbo Bolts
QTY x 2 2.25” 4 Ply Silicon Couplers (Inlet Pipes)
QTY x 2 4 Ply 2.25” Silicon Couplers (Turbo to Charge Pipe)
QTY x 8 Worm Clamps (Inlet Pipes)
QTY x 2 T Bolt Clamps (Turbo To Charge Pipe)
QTY x 2 -3 Oil Restrictor (Turbos)
QTY x 4 Feet Of Vacuum Lines
QTY x 1 Foot of -14 Fire Sleeve

Of course this means nothing if you want any level of power below 3K.

I realize that it is easy to get stuck in the mindset of WOT and 4500+RPMs. after all, when you are speaking to a setup's PEAK potential, you are going to migrate to whatever fits that specific application.

The Audi S4 in stock trim had reasonable acceleration and good luxury, with a high overall level of quality throughout. If you value that overall experience, a setup that is very weak except in specific scenarios may not really appeal to you. When I first got my S, the turbos were nearly blown. It was still a pretty fun ride, and now that I am a mid-sized (440cc), full stage 3, the low RPM power is actually better, and the high RPMs at WOT is way outside of reasonable for in-town driving.

I certainly respect Gen JDM's take on GT kits for racing applications. I do strongly disagree with K04s being anything resembling obsolete for people wanting a solid upgrade in power without troublesome tuning issues and daily driver viability. I am actually the type that would have preferred this vehicle to have a whipple-charger. Predictable, linear power is a good feeling.

I may move to a non- K04 setup, if a ceramic ball bearing turbo with very equivalent low to midrange performance is out there. This, along with my other changes that I would like to do are going to be shelved for a few years, as college is leaving unable to make expendable income.

My 2000 S4 is currently garaged, and, until I have paid off the stage 3 repairs, and have 10K to spend to do everything I see needing attention, she will be driven for 15 minutes per week, purely to prevent damage from storage.

[mholme]

the one disadvantage of the 2.7t: gotta buy 2 of everything :S

And one of the many advantages of the 2.7t: Two is better than one

[HighDesertAudi]

I agree with GenJDM that everyone wants the GT kits to be cheaper but when you take into account the custom manifolds, wastegates, etc. you begin to understand the why they cost so much.


My problem is with the Tial kits. All they do is modify the turbos (new flanges, internal waste gates, etc).

[revhards4]

If the Tials weren't outrageously priced I'd say that K04's would be a thing of the past. But right now you can't really run much else for around $2500 (with inlets and hardware).

The Tials are actually the best idea that has come out for the car, I'll admit it. BUT! and it's a HUGE BUT! The price of 2 turbo's and crappy inlet pipes for $5,800 is absolutely obsurd!

If these turbo's could be purchased for lets say $3,500 to $3,850 then it most definately makes KO4's obsolete. But if you are going to spend the actual $5,800 which is a substantial amount of coin, might as well get a true 3" downpipe with superior manifolds if you want the most power like from a GEN-X kit.

I would also like to axpress the misconseption that you have to do rods, build the heads and add cams, etc when you go GT. Do people not know about the GT2554R? It is a great turbo that can be used on a stock motor. If you want to go more you can, safely, without ringing out a KO4 at 24psi like some people do. No need to get crazy with a built block imo. The GT2554R has been proven to make more power to the wheels at 18.5psi than a ko4 car hitting 24psi then tapering to 21-22psi...both on pump of course.

[HighDesertAudi]

If the Tials were priced around $3K (which they should cost considering the price of the turbos themselves and what little work is done to them) they would be alot more popular.


As of right now I'm saving for RS6's as they appear to be the most cost effective solution for people wanting more power than K04's.

[revhards4]

I agree...if they priced them around $3k, you would never see another KO4 sale again.

[Audi S4 Turbo]

I'd buy some Tials if they were that cheap. Right now even, and keep the k04s as decoration....

[lrg8683]

It is not based on kits. It is based on how many K04 turbos Borg Warner produces or feels the need to produce.

GT kits have nothing to do with it. I thought the introduction of GT kits would lower the price of K04's, a while back. But that didn't occur.

The price of GT kits won't be coming down either.

it would have brought the down the prices of k04's? why didn't it? because a GT kit is so much more expensive than a k04 kit that it didn't affect k04's at all.. had gt kits been similarly priced.. or CHEAPER ( mind you the turbos themselves are cheaper) then yes k04's would either have had to drop in price to compete or just stop existing.

[Sleeeper X]

K04s have been obsolete, its a 40 year old KKK design turbo.
Now, will people stop using them. NO. Why? Simple, the K04 is the entry point to the real game. K04 on 93 will net you 450BHP. A well tuned GT car on a stock block and head can ONLY put down 550 before the rods decide they need to get some "freash" air. Now, once we start taking motor build..... were talking another 5K+. People dont have 10K+ to spend on a 10 year old car.

[generationjdm]

Once again, VAST made an honest 509whp with a MPH to back up their power on a bone stock short block and the motor never went. Thats 650chp, so if thats not enough power then most clearly never felt what that feels like.. You can run a GT car way safer an it's far more reliable then a pjk04 car as the turbos are far more efficient and doesn't call for 24+lbs of hot air to make power... Think about this, what a K04 car makes at 24lbs theres been GT cars duplicate that power at 14lbs, so what car do you think will leave longer and handle more power?

[generationjdm]

The Tials are actually the best idea that has come out for the car, I'll admit it. BUT! and it's a HUGE BUT! The price of 2 turbo's and crappy inlet pipes for $5,800 is absolutely obsurd!

If these turbo's could be purchased for lets say $3,500 to $3,850 then it most definately makes KO4's obsolete. But if you are going to spend the actual $5,800 which is a substantial amount of coin, might as well get a true 3" downpipe with superior manifolds if you want the most power like from a GEN-X kit.

I would also like to axpress the misconseption that you have to do rods, build the heads and add cams, etc when you go GT. Do people not know about the GT2554R? It is a great turbo that can be used on a stock motor. If you want to go more you can, safely, without ringing out a KO4 at 24psi like some people do. No need to get crazy with a built block imo. The GT2554R has been proven to make more power to the wheels at 18.5psi than a ko4 car hitting 24psi then tapering to 21-22psi...both on pump of course.

Theres far more to a turbo setup then just slapping turbos on stock components IE poor stock manifolds, as we have seen some logs/spooling comparisons stating so. Theres no question if you where to pull the trigger on the GT2554ss you would have the baddest all around car on the stock motor period, I think this would change how people feel about stock motors and power capabilities as your car is being setup to road race. Once this car is done it will be the nicest S4 around as Derek didn't spare any expense on the car

[AWD G 882]

Of course this means nothing if you want any level of power below 3K.

I realize that it is easy to get stuck in the mindset of WOT and 4500+RPMs. after all, when you are speaking to a setup's PEAK potential, you are going to migrate to whatever fits that specific application.
.

There are other options from Garrett that will get you closer to your goals. GT2052 is one of them. Same GT25 foot print but with 50A/R intead of 64A/R of 2554. The only thing that is missing is the "R" (ball bearing).

[generationjdm]

[QUOTE=4RingsCircus;3066866]Of course this means nothing if you want any level of power below 3K.

VAG has a GT2560 car that makes tons of power at 3-3200 rpms actually maybe more the any pjk04 car, so I dont no why you think 4500+, probably because people only are looking at the larger gt2860rs + cars and not the gt25 cars...

[Tallbino]

Deb, what is the status of your single build? I'm really looking forward to seeing what a single turbo can do on this platform.

K04's may not be obsolete, but as a stage 3 owner they leave me wanting more and they simply cannot deliver.

[Das General]

Deb, what is the status of your single build? I'm really looking forward to seeing what a single turbo can do on this platform.

K04's may not be obsolete, but as a stage 3 owner they leave me wanting more and they simply cannot deliver.

I had a couple of hang-ups. The block should actually be done this weekend. I haven't been around though. My car got shipped from New Jersey to Rhode Island, to have the block completed, and the new heads assembled. We are just waiting on some schedule 10 piping, flanges, and v-bands to arrive and everything should be done shortly.

I am trying to push for a Christmas time turn key. Should be do-able.

[jutny]

when are we finally going to see a gt25 setup dyno?

Thats exactly what i need to see to pull the trigger on going with the smallest GT turbos that are ball bearing. Build the ultimate street motor, without tearing into the motor, at all.

[Blue AWD]

K04s will get you into 11s on pump nowadays, with quick spool and good driveability. To me, that is good enough for 99% of people out there.

[ThePaintballGuy]

Just out of curiosity, how much can you put a GT25 kit together for? I want more power but I don't want to build the motor.

Josh

[Das General]

K04s will get you into 11s on pump nowadays, with quick spool and good driveability. To me, that is good enough for 99% of people out there.

Yeah, but that 1 percent of people out there would rather run better times than 11's.

[revhards4]

when are we finally going to see a gt25 setup dyno?

Thats exactly what i need to see to pull the trigger on going with the smallest GT turbos that are ball bearing. Build the ultimate street motor, without tearing into the motor, at all.

Look at Vag motorsports website...475whp on a mustang dyno on pump gas. They were saying the best stage 3 KO4 car on race gas only made 390whp on that same dyno.

The old ASP GT25r car made 412 or 415whp on pump gas at CPT's dyno I think with boost in the high teens and then a stage 3 on race gas and all the trimming made 403whp right after with boost 24psi taper to 21.

Proof is in the pudding right there my friends. Plus if you look at the VAG GT25r car is makes more torque and power all over the graph at all rpm's than most KO4 cars on pump.

[jutny]

i want to see the curves, peak numbers mean nothing (well they mean something, i know this tells us that the GT setup is capable of more than the K04 setup)

i want to see a properly done K04 setup close to maxed out, vs a gt25 setup running a nice, everyday, stock motor- tune. I want to see the low end torque curves and spool characteristics. Considering in every day driving i may never even see 4k rpms, i want to retain EVERY (or as much as feasible) ounce of low end the car already has.

[generationjdm]

you want to retain every ounce of the low end power you already have, then stick with the k03ss. If you race your car from 1k rpm to 2300rpm then keep them

[generationjdm]

asp made 500whp on 93 octane with 2554ss and vag actually made high as 518whp on gt2554ss

[2001S4NY]

asp made 500whp on 93 octane with 2554ss and vag actually made high as 518whp on gt2554ss

wait i thought ASP said you will be lucky to make 440whp with 2554's lol

[Das General]

asp made 500whp on 93 octane with 2554ss and vag actually made high as 518whp on gt2554ss

yeah but you can make 500whp on K04's.. didn't you know that?

[2001S4NY]

yeah but you can make 500whp on K04's.. didn't you know that?

i knew that, that was the reason i was confused K04>2554

[4RingsCircus]

Look at Vag motorsports website...475whp on a mustang dyno on pump gas. They were saying the best stage 3 KO4 car on race gas only made 390whp on that same dyno.

The old ASP GT25r car made 412 or 415whp on pump gas at CPT's dyno I think with boost in the high teens and then a stage 3 on race gas and all the trimming made 403whp right after with boost 24psi taper to 21.

Proof is in the pudding right there my friends. Plus if you look at the VAG GT25r car is makes more torque and power all over the graph at all rpm's than most KO4 cars on pump.

When you post, if you would please speak to peak HP being the goal, that would help. You have a way of implying that 18 PSI on a GT turbo is somehow generating more power than a K04 turbo on the same car.

You can damned sure bet that if I went GT, I would upgrade just about everything, since the entry fee is so high. The logic is that the costs on GT fitment is so high, that you may as well spend a percentage of that larger pie to generat more power all around.

At the time that I researched replacement turnos, there wer no ceramic ball bearing options available that spooled where the K04 does. Additionally, supporting the turbos was going to require an extra ~1500 dollars. The cost/benefit was not where I wanted it, and the kits were very untested in a 4 seasons, daily driver non-track use.

I certainly appreciate learning of a turbo that spools similar to the K04 by Garrett. Unfortunately, if i is not ball bearing, there is little incentive to spend a dime on extra plumbing and adapting to the compressor map.

Gen- we've covered this/ Yes, a 3 liter GT car with expensive engine mods will put down more power at 18 PSI than a K04 car at 20/21. It will also outpower a poorly tuned or overworked K04 running outside peak efficiency. I would run a K04 at 24PSI as insurance that my non-trak car would develop more PSI with less throttle input than a lower peak would produce. In other words, since I am not racing, the 24 PSI never/seldom gets used, but 3/4 pedal nets me 18 PSI instead of 14, due to engine load/boost ratios.

It's easy to make unqualified blanket statements, and then qualify them if called on it. Saying "GT cars" and "PJ K04 cars" is leaving a LOT of latitude. Using that tactic, I could claim that a 1.8T BT car makes more power than a stage 3 S4. Unfortunately, it would be true on paper, under optimal situations, but false under many others.

You don't have to "sell" ceramic/ball bearing turbos to me. They have their value. I just cannot justify them for the "stock, but faster" experience. The same holds true for huge turbos on a 1.8T. Fast, but the experience differs greatly from stock, and seems more geared towards track.

Again, ceramic ball bearing that spools as early as K04, and I would have already done it. Maybe down the road i'll go that route with an overbore, but it would be for longevity, not peak power.

[4RingsCircus]

That probably reads wrong, so pretend i'm expressing an opinion, and i'm -not- being confrontational....

[Das General]

Someone needs to somehow make a manifold that can fit two FPRed turbos.

[revhards4]

lol, FP red turbo's! What would be really amazing if we could somehow makethe EVO Big 16G with the titanium shaft fit. Small turbo with tremendous power capabilities.

[revhards4]

When you post, if you would please speak to peak HP being the goal, that would help. You have a way of implying that 18 PSI on a GT turbo is somehow generating more power than a K04 turbo on the same car.

You can damned sure bet that if I went GT, I would upgrade just about everything, since the entry fee is so high. The logic is that the costs on GT fitment is so high, that you may as well spend a percentage of that larger pie to generat more power all around.

At the time that I researched replacement turnos, there wer no ceramic ball bearing options available that spooled where the K04 does. Additionally, supporting the turbos was going to require an extra ~1500 dollars. The cost/benefit was not where I wanted it, and the kits were very untested in a 4 seasons, daily driver non-track use.

I certainly appreciate learning of a turbo that spools similar to the K04 by Garrett. Unfortunately, if i is not ball bearing, there is little incentive to spend a dime on extra plumbing and adapting to the compressor map.

Gen- we've covered this/ Yes, a 3 liter GT car with expensive engine mods will put down more power at 18 PSI than a K04 car at 20/21. It will also outpower a poorly tuned or overworked K04 running outside peak efficiency. I would run a K04 at 24PSI as insurance that my non-trak car would develop more PSI with less throttle input than a lower peak would produce. In other words, since I am not racing, the 24 PSI never/seldom gets used, but 3/4 pedal nets me 18 PSI instead of 14, due to engine load/boost ratios.

It's easy to make unqualified blanket statements, and then qualify them if called on it. Saying "GT cars" and "PJ K04 cars" is leaving a LOT of latitude. Using that tactic, I could claim that a 1.8T BT car makes more power than a stage 3 S4. Unfortunately, it would be true on paper, under optimal situations, but false under many others.

You don't have to "sell" ceramic/ball bearing turbos to me. They have their value. I just cannot justify them for the "stock, but faster" experience. The same holds true for huge turbos on a 1.8T. Fast, but the experience differs greatly from stock, and seems more geared towards track.

Again, ceramic ball bearing that spools as early as K04, and I would have already done it. Maybe down the road i'll go that route with an overbore, but it would be for longevity, not peak power.
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see, everyone wants or is looking for something different. I wanted to express that a GT2554 "the smallest BB Garrett turbo you can purchase" makes the same if not more midrange and upstairs than a KO4. Others argue in this exact same thread that they don't want lag. Well, you can't make everyone happy. This is a 2.7L motor not an LS1 5.7L or built 6.0L. People need to realize this. WE HAVE A VERY SMALL MOTOR! The guys running 1000whp to the ground in their Supra's don't car about lag...they just boast that they put 4 digits to the ground and run 9's in the 140mph range. If you are that deathly afraid of lag pull the turbo's off and stick a roots blower through the hood OR BUY ANOTHER CAR.