Any APR news on the K04 front?

[rnp614]

Whats up in development at the moment?

[Auditude2.0T]

nope. apr is loosing customers. i am borderline getting rid of my software becasue im fed up with their terrible customer service

[rnp614]

To be honest at this point I wish I bought some other software because it looks like I'm going to ditch this company and get something from Stasis or another brand altogether. Is it possible to sell our software or do we have to eat the cost?

[rayiish]

you could probably sell your ECU but I don't know how many people would actually buy it.

[AWDTURBO]

so i guess me chipping my ecu is a no go .. lol oop

[rnp614]

so go?

[AudiWxGuy]

go with GIAC-X. That's who I'll be going with, probably in the VERY NEAR Future.

[Mike@APR]

Okay, even though I feel like I am walking into a storm based on some of the earlier negative comments, I will address everyone and take the abuse.

Yes, we are working on quite a few new parts for the B7 platform. We tend to keep things a little quiet until products are ready to be released. However, we have the following produts in development, all of which are scheduled to be released within the next month and a half:

APR B7 S3-based K04 Kit
APR B7 Stage 3 Big Turbo Kit
APR B7 Front Mounted Intercooler Kit

I hope this answers the questions about upcoming products with the knowledge that each product release will come with a full suite of data (power numbers, pricing, fuel economy, etc.)

There have been a few comments about "customer service". I am not sure if these comments were about our involvment, or lack thereof, on Audizine...OR, comments from current customers who need some technical assistance with a product they already own. I can assure you, if you have any tech support needs, they will be answered. In fact, we just added some personnel in the tech support department. Please contact us at 1-800-680-7921.

As a member of the engineering department, I will do my best to come over to Audizine more often to give you guys the attention you deserve. For the record, I own one of the B7 Stage 3 development cars so there is definitely an interest in B7 development. Just hold tight a few more weeks and I promise, you will have many additional options with APR and the possibility to go from OEM+ to OMG!!!!

[Zebman]

I've never had problems with APR, just boosting in general. Mike i'm about to shoot you a PM, I hope you can help.

[audidrver]

To mike from Apr. Will there ever be available v-tune software for B7 a4 platform?

[rnp614]

Any news on if the S3 K04 upgrade requires the intercooler?

[Alky]

What's the difference between the S3 k04 and the k04 kit that APR already sells?

[Mike@APR]

To mike from Apr. Will there ever be available v-tune software for B7 a4 platform?

Right now, we have no plans to offer a V-Tune style program for the B7 A4. Let me explain some of the reasons for this:

One of the reasons for this is due to the very sensitive nature of the "FSI" system. Very small changes in boost and fuel can cause problematic issues like misfire, fuel cut, and limp mode. For example, the difference between a happy FSI injector and a car with horrible misfire is only about 0.5 milliseconds worth of injector on-time. The point of this example is to show that once the thresholds are crossed, they are not very forgiving. With our current Stage 1 and Stage 2 software, we have ensured that these thresholds are never crossed (unless something mechanically is wrong with the car). We have left a safety margin, but it's not like it's huge and excessive. At the end of the day, we are in the business of making power but we also have to keep your engine safe. This has been optimized in the ECU tuning for the B7. There really isn't a lot left on the table for stock turbo cars without risking the safety of the engine/turbo.

One other reason is the existence of so many compensation tables available in the ME9 Bosch Motronic software. These compensation tables allow us to provide changes to the tuning for various environmental and engine conditions. Meaning, the ECU is running off of some base maps that get altered based on hundreds of conditions. For example, you may be thinking, I live in an area of the country that gets really cold during the winter. Now, during the winter, I want to advance my ignition timing using V-Tune due to the really cool charge air temperatures I am seeing. We have already done this for you in the software. There is a compensation table that will add more overall ignition timing as charge air temperatures fall. These types of compensations exist for all of the major variables and for hundreds of conditions.

I hope this all makes sense. None of my comments here rule out the possibility of something like V-Tune in the future, but they are two of the major reasons why something like this does not exist for the B7 A4. Every so often, the topic comes up at the office but to be honest, the first reason I described is usually the one that makes us feel like it might be a bad idea for the bulk of our FSI customers.

[rnp614]

What's the difference between the S3 k04 and the k04 kit that APR already sells?

THey dont sell a K04 for the A4 anymore. It was a small run product.

[Mike@APR]

Any news on if the S3 K04 upgrade requires the intercooler?

Yes, we recommend the intercooler for both turbo kits. However, it does not require the intercooler to be fitted to the vehicle. We have designed both turbo kits such that they can be bolted up to the stock side-mounted intercoolers as well as fit most, if not all, aftermarket intercooler designs for those who already have an intercooler on their car. From a performance standpoint, the stock side-mounted intercoolers are easily overwhelmed by the upgraded turbos. In fact, this is the whole reason that the kits are not already on the market. We did not feel comfortable with the performance of the factory intercoolers. So we went back to design our own intercooler to support both of these kits, as well as those with the stock turbo.

[Mike@APR]

THey dont sell a K04 for the A4 anymore. It was a small run product.

Correct. The original APR K04 kit for the B7 has been discontinued based on lack of availability of the turbochargers. However, we are replacing and upgrading the B7 K04 setup with the new design that is due out shortly.

[rnp614]

Yes, we recommend the intercooler for both turbo kits. However, it does not require the intercooler to be fitted to the vehicle. We have designed both turbo kits such that they can be bolted up to the stock side-mounted intercoolers as well as fit most, if not all, aftermarket intercooler designs for those who already have an intercooler on their car. From a performance standpoint, the stock side-mounted intercoolers are easily overwhelmed by the upgraded turbos. In fact, this is the whole reason that the kits are not already on the market. We did not feel comfortable with the performance of the factory intercoolers. So we went back to design our own intercooler to support both of these kits, as well as those with the stock turbo.

I know this is hardly the most fair question to ask, but how is stasis able to achieve what they do out of their K04 kit without even the suggestion of an intercooler while still backing up their kits with a warranty? They must be doing something to achieve that kind of reliability?

[Mike@APR]

I know this is hardly the most fair question to ask, but how is stasis able to achieve what they do out of their K04 kit without even the suggestion of an intercooler while still backing up their kits with a warranty? They must be doing something to achieve that kind of reliability?

Your question is very fair. However, I cannot answer for Stasis, I can only answer for APR. The following statement has no bearing on anything Stasis may or may not have done. I am only sharing what APR experienced.

For us, it was about repeatability and safety. During our testing, we saw that you could get through a typical dyno run without any worry. We also saw that in most daily driving activities, the car performed very well with repeatable results. However, there were a few conditions that really alarmed us. During street driving in some really warm weather during the Summer of '08, we saw too much spark advance being pulled out by the ECU as a result of some high intake air temps after both of the factory intercoolers (part of the compensation, remember?). In addition, during repeated runs on the street, we could feel the loss of this timing, making the car feel less powerful than the preceding run. We then went back to the dyno and lengthened the time it took to complete each dyno run. For example, originally a dyno run may have taken 12 seconds but for these runs, we extended the time to 15 or 20 seconds. The resulting intake charge temperatures were way too high. In addition, the ECU was compensating by pulling back the spark advance which was reducing power as well as having a negative effect on the exhaust gas temperatures. We then performed some additional testing on the dyno where we held the car at peak power (it's a loading dyno, not just a heavy roller) to see how long it took to heat soak the factory intercoolers. It didn't take long. In fact, it happend way too quickly for our comfort level. However, the really bothersome part was the negative effect this was having on exhaust gas temperatures. That's a component saftey issue and will become a fuel economy issue if we have to run really rich to keep the temps down. With all of this data in hand and having repeated the tests on the dyno and the street. We knew what we had to do.

We then mocked up an intercooler design on the car to do some preliminary testing. After repeating all of the tests with the mock-up intercooler, we verified that this solved all of these problems without the need to reduce the spark advance or reduce the power level of the kit. This seemed like a no-brainer to us, even if it meant delaying the kit slightly to bring the intercooler up to production standards. I hope this answers your question.

All this time, I bet you guys thought that we had forgotten about our B7 customers when in fact, we have been working hard all year. :-)

[audidrver]

Right now, we have no plans to offer a V-Tune style program for the B7 A4. Let me explain some of the reasons for this:

One of the reasons for this is due to the very sensitive nature of the "FSI" system. Very small changes in boost and fuel can cause problematic issues like misfire, fuel cut, and limp mode. For example, the difference between a happy FSI injector and a car with horrible misfire is only about 0.5 milliseconds worth of njector on-time. The point of this example is to show that once the thresholds are crossed, they are not very forgiving. With our current Stage 1 and Stage 2 software, we have ensured that these thresholds are never crossed (unless something mechanically is wrong with the car). We have left a safety margin, but it's not like it's huge and excessive. At the end of the day, we are in the business of making power but we also have to keep your engine safe. This has been optimized in the ECU tuning for the B7. There really isn't a lot left on the table for stock turbo cars without risking the safety of the engine/turbo.

One other reason is the existence of so many compensation tables available in the ME9 Bosch Motronic software. These compensation tables allow us to provide changes to the tuning for various environmental and engine conditions. Meaning, the ECU is running off of some base maps that get altered based on hundreds of conditions. For example, you may be thinking, I live in an area of the country that gets really cold during the winter. Now, during the winter, I want to advance my ignition timing using V-Tune due to the really cool charge air temperatures I am seeing. We have already done this for you in the software. There is a compensation table that will add more overall ignition timing as charge air temperatures fall. These types of compensations exist for all of the major variables and for hundreds of conditions.

I hope this all makes sense. None of my comments here rule out the possibility of something like V-Tune in the future, but they are two of the major reasons why something like this does not exist for the B7 A4. Every so often, the topic comes up at the office but to be honest, the first reason I described is usually the one that makes us feel like it might be a bad idea for the bulk of our FSI customers.

Thanks for the quick response. Pm sent.

[Six Speed Turbo]

Alot of good info from APR. Thanks Mike. The question I would like to see answered is what does pricing look like for a full kit, and what would it be for those of us who have software, FSI pumps, and FMIC's already?

[Nico]

Your question is very fair. However, I cannot answer for Stasis, I can only answer for APR. The following statement has no bearing on anything Stasis may or may not have done. I am only sharing what APR experienced.

For us, it was about repeatability and safety. During our testing, we saw that you could get through a typical dyno run without any worry. We also saw that in most daily driving activities, the car performed very well with repeatable results. However, there were a few conditions that really alarmed us. During street driving in some really warm weather during the Summer of '08, we saw too much spark advance being pulled out by the ECU as a result of some high intake air temps after both of the factory intercoolers (part of the compensation, remember?). In addition, during repeated runs on the street, we could feel the loss of this timing, making the car feel less powerful than the preceding run. We then went back to the dyno and lengthened the time it took to complete each dyno run. For example, originally a dyno run may have taken 12 seconds but for these runs, we extended the time to 15 or 20 seconds. The resulting intake charge temperatures were way too high. In addition, the ECU was compensating by pulling back the spark advance which was reducing power as well as having a negative effect on the exhaust gas temperatures. We then performed some additional testing on the dyno where we held the car at peak power (it's a loading dyno, not just a heavy roller) to see how long it took to heat soak the factory intercoolers. It didn't take long. In fact, it happend way too quickly for our comfort level. However, the really bothersome part was the negative effect this was having on exhaust gas temperatures. That's a component saftey issue and will become a fuel economy issue if we have to run really rich to keep the temps down. With all of this data in hand and having repeated the tests on the dyno and the street. We knew what we had to do.

We then mocked up an intercooler design on the car to do some preliminary testing. After repeating all of the tests with the mock-up intercooler, we verified that this solved all of these problems without the need to reduce the spark advance or reduce the power level of the kit. This seemed like a no-brainer to us, even if it meant delaying the kit slightly to bring the intercooler up to production standards. I hope this answers your question.

All this time, I bet you guys thought that we had forgotten about our B7 customers when in fact, we have been working hard all year. :-)

Hi Mike,

I have the original APR KO4 kit and I have had some problems with my engine. I have done several logs according to the official APR logging method. However I don't feel like APR has really had a good look at them. The reason I say this is that there are a few obvious problems that I could find, e.g injector on time 8-10ms, high N75 duty cycle (eventhough N75 has been replaced) etc..
Could I send them to you for you to get them looked at properly.

Thanks

Nico

[Jedidiah]

just in time for Christmas.

[davis449]

This thread, and the technical data revealed in it by APR, is why I choose APR when modding my car. I could give a shit less about how quick a company gets their shit to the market. I care about quality of the product and how much R&D went into it so I can drive the shit out of my car without worrying what's going to happen to it. I won't speak badly about the other companies out there, because I simply can't, but APR does do their homework. I'll be looking forward to these kits when they come to the market.

On another note to all you haters out there who have so much trouble with your cars (fuel pump, etc.), THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A GOOD MECHANIC and it is equally your responsibility to make sure your car is in good enough shape to modify.

[b7ftw]

Just hold tight a few more weeks and I promise, you will have many additional options with APR and the possibility to go from OEM+ to OMG!!!!

HA, OEM2OMG was something i was thinking of putting on my euro plate

anywho, i'm glad APR is putting out new products... and hopefully the new staff additions will help disolve any bad rep customer service received lately.
I have an APR exhaust and love it, fantastic quality. Go APR!

[Nico]

On another note to all you haters out there who have so much trouble with your cars (fuel pump, etc.), THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A GOOD MECHANIC and it is equally your responsibility to make sure your car is in good enough shape to modify.

I agree with you on this point. However even a good mechanic can only know so much about our cars when they are modified. Ask your mechanic what specific A/F a FSI can run at safely, Ask them what the stock flow rate of the injectors is, ask them about the fuel trims, ask them about timing, DV, PCV etc.. unless your mechanic is massively into tuning Audi and VW vehicles they won't know these things. And I mean taking engines apart, bench testing fuel pumps and injectors, knowing the strength of stock internals.

This is why when our(my) cars doesn't run properly we turn to APR - not to blame them for my problems just to beg them for help to ensure our (my) car is running safely and the way I was designed to by them . I have not once blamed APR for my engine blowing up and needing to be replaced because I know that there alot of factors that can influence these things from happening especially when modifying a vehicle.

[DownUnderSLine]

This thread, and the technical data revealed in it by APR, is why I choose APR when modding my car. I could give a shit less about how quick a company gets their shit to the market. I care about quality of the product and how much R&D went into it so I can drive the shit out of my car without worrying what's going to happen to it. I won't speak badly about the other companies out there, because I simply can't, but APR does do their homework. I'll be looking forward to these kits when they come to the market.

On another note to all you haters out there who have so much trouble with your cars (fuel pump, etc.), THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A GOOD MECHANIC and it is equally your responsibility to make sure your car is in good enough shape to modify.

+1 ! Nice work APR !!

[CapstoneJHS]

nope. apr is loosing customers. i am borderline getting rid of my software becasue im fed up with their terrible customer service

Get rid of it so we don't have to listen to you whine about it anymore. I swear, every other post is you whining about how you're unhappy.

[D-techniK]

Keep us updated.

[Nico]

Early morning bump to get APR's attention.

[rnp614]

So about the turbo you plan on using for the K04...is it no longer going to be as stealth as the previous mod? If one installs this kit, how obvious will it be to audi technicians on a routine service if you put your software back to stock mode? Would the exhaust be the only mod they see right off the bat?

[Mike@APR]

Early morning bump to get APR's attention.

Evening response as I wind down after a day's work.

[rnp614]

Doh! You missed my most recent q in that wind down! How stealth is the K04 without the intercooler?

[Turn10]

Can anyone describe to me if their is an actual gain to a Forge DV?

[rnp614]

how does that belong in this thread exactly?

[Mike@APR]

So about the turbo you plan on using for the K04...is it no longer going to be as stealth as the previous mod? If one installs this kit, how obvious will it be to audi technicians on a routine service if you put your software back to stock mode? Would the exhaust be the only mod they see right off the bat?

The kit will be stealthy. When we set out to do the new K04 kit at APR, one of the requirements was that it look as OEM as possible. The exhaust would be the easiest give away because we had to make a slight change to the cat-pipe flange for the new turbo assembly. However, this will be included with the kit and won't look modified unless you ran back and forth from a K04 B7 to a stock B7 while staring at the flange looking for differences. As I said, it will be stealthy. I think during a normal oil change or the like, the only noticeable modification will be the exhaust. Unless of course you opt for the new APR B7 intercooler as well.

More details on our new B7 products coming soon. For now, let me say that development is done and we are just waiting for production parts to show up (most are made here but some foundary work is outsourced). We are working on a some race gas tuning which is keeping us busy while the parts are in transit. We are also harassing any suppliers that owe us parts.

[rnp614]

The kit will be stealthy. When we set out to do the new K04 kit at APR, one of the requirements was that it look as OEM as possible. The exhaust would be the easiest give away because we had to make a slight change to the cat-pipe flange for the new turbo assembly. However, this will be included with the kit and won't look modified unless you ran back and forth from a K04 B7 to a stock B7 while staring at the flange looking for differences. As I said, it will be stealthy. I think during a normal oil change or the like, the only noticeable modification will be the exhaust. Unless of course you opt for the new APR B7 intercooler as well.

More details on our new B7 products coming soon. For now, let me say that development is done and we are just waiting for production parts to show up (most are made here but some foundary work is outsourced). We are working on a some race gas tuning which is keeping us busy while the parts are in transit. We are also harassing any suppliers that owe us parts.

Great to hear from you Mike. Glad to hear its moving along. I wonder if we'll see any holiday pricing at the introduction of these kits?

Either way, I appreciate your response....oh and any news on the RSC exhaust for us B7s? Is that going to be released at the same time? Also, the K04 kit doesnt require a cat delete does it? I only ask because of something written on that S3 K04 flyer that I saw on here.

[DOBERMAN@UA]

The kit will be stealthy. When we set out to do the new K04 kit at APR, one of the requirements was that it look as OEM as possible. The exhaust would be the easiest give away because we had to make a slight change to the cat-pipe flange for the new turbo assembly. However, this will be included with the kit and won't look modified unless you ran back and forth from a K04 B7 to a stock B7 while staring at the flange looking for differences. As I said, it will be stealthy. I think during a normal oil change or the like, the only noticeable modification will be the exhaust. Unless of course you opt for the new APR B7 intercooler as well.

More details on our new B7 products coming soon. For now, let me say that development is done and we are just waiting for production parts to show up (most are made here but some foundary work is outsourced). We are working on a some race gas tuning which is keeping us busy while the parts are in transit. We are also harassing any suppliers that owe us parts.

What is the difference between old and new K 04 kit?

[Keith@APR]

What is the difference between old and new K 04 kit?

Its a completely different turbocharger.

[DOBERMAN@UA]

Its a completely different turbocharger.

Could you give more info about new kit, specsfications, price, what whould be included? And if possible power figures. Any links?

[Keith@APR]

Could you give more info about new kit, specsfications, price, what whould be included? And if possible power figures. Any links?

This is all I have for now.