Ko4 Vs Gt 25

[Grim420]

So I think that I have narrowed it down with going with a GT 25 since I have read alot of thing saying that I will not get as much HP as I want with KO4's. It seems that KO4 are only good to just over 400 Hp and well I want more. If there is anyone out there that has any more suggestion I am more then will to take advise.Since my car is currently bone stock I am work with a clean slat. Is there any one on this tread running GT 25? If so what do you think of them?

[InLoveWithMyS4]

I hope you have 20k plus to spend on the project...haha

[b5s4tt]

talk to ssptuning and generation jdm for some info. vast and many other have gt2x cars. some kits can be had for 8 or so thousand. it will be more if the car has all stock equiptment like clutch, fuel pump, rods etc. it all depends on how much power you really want and what you use the car for.

[readimag]

call up mike or prince at vast and they can help you out alot with price and questions.

[Muck_and_Grind]

yeah... K04s to only 400hp??? where did you see that. i believe the fastest full interior S4(2001.5) is well over 400HP. use a horsepower calculator. i don't know maybe some people just think that you need more than you really do, to make a car go fast.....

[detroittechno]

call up mike or prince at vast and they can help you out alot with price and questions.

x2 They rock!! I have the convenience of living couple blocks away.

[obviouspro]

Look into RS6 turbo's too.

[b5s4tt]

tial makes a set as well to mount in stock locations

[Janek]

Im planning to put gt25s instead of ko4s in to my car, you can make little less than 500hp with them and with original parts inside the motor and it still should be "safe". Over 500hp is propably too risky.
WIth ko4s you cant take that much.
If you dont look kits, and do little bit more by yourself you can do it at the same price than with k04s.
But if you buy everything what it needs from performance stores, the price is far from that what you pay from k04 kit.
I have hardware for manifold (TIG welding, no ss), 3" DP:s(ss) and exhaust(ss).
You could try to use RS4 clutch, but i dont know will it last in normal daily drive or in strip, perhaps its better to buy real clutch.
RS4 maf, bigger injectors can purchase kind of low price, then you need to remap it.
Oh, i have fmic in garage ready for it too, and it doesnt cost as much as RS4 coolers does, and i have heard that it is even better than RS4 coolers.
So, i believe my setup will cost about 4500 euros (aprox. 6000$).
I do also have 2.8 heads and cams in my engine, and NX-kit, will see how it will stick together, better pray that nothing comes out of block.

[GURUMAN]

Get in touch with Markku Kivinen the owner of Agtronic.

He's the welder and brain behind my kit.

Sold one in Uk and another one in Spain...
If I rember he still as one kit with gt2554's at the moment.

http://www.agtronicmotorsport.com/

[jibberjive]

Yeah listen to Guru cause he's one of the very few on here who actually ran GT2554's.

Since I've been researching this exact thing for the past half-year+ I'll give my opinion. It really depends on a few things. What are your goals? Will the car be your daily driver? Are you planning on road racing? How important is your budget? Are you willing to build your engine (rods at least)?

Speaking in generalities, I see the turbo options in like 3 tiers:
KO4's-~380-450whp
RS6's and GT2554/GT2854-~450-530whp
GT2560/2860/2860rs-530whp+

KO4's----In my opinion, if you're not putting rods in your engine, then it's not worth spending the extra couple of grand for the options above KO4's (except for maybe RS6's). Sure you can run them on lower boost and be more in their efficiency range, thus being cooler and more reliable, but with the price difference required (not small) to run them there's not really any point if you're going to run them at the same power levels as KO4's. The only way I would go with RS6's to run lower boost on a stock motor is if I didn't already have downpipes that would fit KO4's, my only KO4 option was to buy new KO4's at $2400 and I didn't mind paying the extra $1k for the RS6 turbos.

I personally was looking to piece together a KO4 setup rather cheaply. Used (and some new) fueling kits are like $1000-1500, or can be pieced together for the lower end of that spectrum and then go with a custom tune (which is what I was going to do because I'm going to be running a custom SSP E85 tune). If you want to go minimalist you could go with the stock airbox (darintake if you want), RS4 accordian ($60), 85mm MAF ($200+), 60lb injectors ($282 on sale from Integrating Engineering right now
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235847
), spacers and fuel rail bolts (~$20?). Used KO4's go for $1100-2000 (and if you go used and they're in good shape you don't have to worry about that omnious 'bad batch' of KO4's from Borg Warner because the turbos have been tried out for a few thousand miles.) Inlets are like $375 from genJDM (don't know if he is doing them anymore) or 034. Installation hardware is $60-80. A custom tune will run anywhere from ~$650 on up to whatever, don't really know what the big tuners charge. Of course things you'll need for any of the above turbo options: Downpipes (piggies=free or ~$300?, or JHM 2,5" ~$850, used others for ~$1k, or new other 3" for $1600+), Catback (custom, APR/ASP/etc ~$1k) Upgraded intercoolers ($400 ebay/JHM FMIC - $1300 ER SMIC's), upgraded clutch ($550-900 + $350-500 LWFW if you so choose), motor and tranny mounts (don't know what they currently charge, but 034 was the cheapest and killer quality). Some other things you may want to consider: MBC, Samco hoses, a wideband o2 sensor, phoenlic spacers, spark plugs, DV's, random gaskets/seals to replace while the motor's out.

So KO4 positives- cheapest of the 3 tiers, bolt on, tons of tuning options and experience, good spool for daily drive/road racing, KO4's on race gas pretty much as much power as one would want to go without upgraded rods, reliable power levels for other components (axles, tranny, diff, subframe mounts, etc)

KO4 negatives- worry of brand new turbos blowing (may be blown out of proportion), relatively limited power (though I would think it is well more than enough for most people to daily drive)

RS6's---- So the beginning of the next tier is straight RS6's. They have more power potential, but with that means upgrading the rods to reliably run them at their potential. The least expensive rods I've found are the forged h-beam rods from Integrated Engineering for $850. http://www.intengineering.com/Shop/C...id/0/SFV/32093
With that there's the added labor of breaking down the engine, getting the rods installed, balancing the rotating assembly, and reassembling. While all of that is out you probably want to replace the main and rod bearings ($60 and $100 respectively.) Plus you'll need a new headgaskets ($70 from 034) and whatever other gaskets. The cheapest machine shop quotes I've got for the labor are: $80 to disassemble (I feel this is going to go way up when he sees how complicated our 2.7t is), $100 to hottank and mic everything (check wrist pin clearance, pistons, cylinder, etc) to make sure it's in spec, $175 to balance, and $150 to reassemble. While you're in there you may as well clean up the heads (and the thought keeps creeping into my mind that while I'm in there I may as well build the heads, but it would be pointless on RS6's). You may also want to get new rings and a light hone. I have a feeling those labor quotes are quite optimistic though. With the added power you're probably running on the edge of what a clutch that you'd use for the regular KO4's could handle, so you'd probably want to step up to a heavier duty (more expensive clutch as well). You'll want to upgrade the fuel pump also. A walbro 255lph would prob do ($105-$205), but I'm going with a Bosch 044 with the amount of fuel I'm going to have to flow running E85. Brand new RS6 turbos already modified to fit the S4 are $3400-3600 and come with the necessary flanges to modify your current dp's if you already have some (I can attest that that is a very decent deal because brand new RS6's (unmodified to fit the S4) from the dealer were like $1490 + ~$450 core charge per turbo even with my employee discount.) If you don't already have DP's, JHM sells some for cheap that already have the RS6 flange on them (~$850), but they're 2.5" compared to other company's 3" (so I'm modifying my ASP's rather than selling them to get the 2.5"er's) So if you don't get those DP's you'll have to get the RS6 flanges welded on (should be cheap). Other than that, the rest should cost the same as KO4's. Things to consider: bipipes (I went with genJDM's), RS4 airbox/ CAI?, adjustable FPR?, lower compression Headgaskets?, oil cooler?, can 710n or p DV's handle RS6's?

So RS6 positives- more power, still decent spool, reliability of forged rods, uses stock fuel/coolant lines, uses KO4 inlets

RS6 negatives-more expensive (turbos, rods, labor, dp flange, fuel pump), not bolt on (if you're doing rods), slightly more wear on the rest of the car with the added power

GT2554/2854---- After this you have GT2554/2854 setups. In my opinion, I can't justify going with these specific turbos over RS6's because of the added expense/benefit ratio unless you get a really good deal on a used setup or something. These require new exhaust manifolds, downpipes, inlets, wastegates, oil and coolant lines and hardware. As a benefit, however, all of these added expenses add performance (except the lines/hardware). It would be really tough to build a one off GT kit because the manifolds and dp's would be tough to build easily and right the first time, the turbos themselves need to be modified a little bit, and it would be kind of a pain to fabricate the oil lines, coolant lines, and inlets. So we're somewhat at the mercy of the assembled kits, which even at $8k for turbos/turbo hardware etc (no fueling) definitely isn't for a budget build. These turbos are ball bearing, and are therefore more efficient and some argue more reliable (though I've never heard of an RS6 turbo blow). They'll probably spool around the same time as RS6's, but have a little more headroom up top (this is educated conjecture of course, based on my research.) They should be somewhat comparable to RS6's as far as powerband/spool is concerned (I'm sure I'll get alot of comments about this whole paragraph). If I were to spend the money on a GT kit with manifolds/etc I'd go with a bigger turbo than the 2554 to make it worth it the money. Tials are out for me in my opinion because at ~$5500 for just the turbos, I'd rather spend the extra $2500 for nice manis/dp's when running this much power/airflow. I didn't add up the exact retail cost of the stuff I listed above in the RS6 to compare to retail genJDM kit without fueling @ $8k, but for me personally it was more than $4.5k more to go with a GT kit over the RS6 (I already have some parts and found some good deals). I'm sure if you were paying full retail for both that gap would close a little, if you want to know, just add up the stuff I listed above. Since my car will be my daily driver/road track day racer (spool and reliability important), I'm willing to do rods, and I want to minimize incidental other breakages (tranny, etc), and budget is important, I was looking for a setup the 500-550whp range. Since I wouldn't be going all out with GT2860rs', I couldn't justify the additional expense to go with a GT kit over RS6's (especially since I'll be running an E85 tune, which should be over 500whp with RS6's). On the other hand, my ideal setup (if money weren't a factor) would be a GT kit with GT2860R-707160-7 turbos that noone's used on the S4 yet.

GT2554 positives - slightly more headroom, efficiency, reliability, tubular manifolds/dps

GT2554 negatives - relatively big jump in price, not huge power jump over RS6, requires custom headers/etc

GT2860-7---- SOMEBODY DO THESE TURBOS! I feel that these are the perfect happy medium between the 2554/2854 and the larger 2560/2860's
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_707160_7.htm
They've got 75% turbine efficiency compared to the 2560's 65%. If I were to go GT, with my goals this would be my turbo.

GT2560/2860/2860rs---- This is the 3rd tier. This is where the sky's the limit and stuff gets expensive too. Things to consider: build the heads?,RS4 intake/TB/etc?, big bore?, upgrade drivetrain?, twin disk clutch?,

positives -power, potential,

negatives - cost, lag, inherent reliability issues with that much power, daily drivability?



Wow, now that I wrote a freaking dissertation on turbo upgrade options for the S4 I think I'm done typing for a while. All of this is of course my opinion and should be taken as such. It was formed after researching everywhere for the past year, so I thought I'd compile it in one place to save others some time. If anyone wants to know more about specific deals that I've found or other potential issues that I've found, feel free to PM me.

[fixn2xlr8]

If your car is bone stock, how do you know you wont like Ko4s?

[Yasek]

From personal experience, K04 is fine and dandy, unless you have the money a real urge for mad power, and love buying new tires.

I was scared enough in a K04 S4, the car: 12.2 @ 115.9

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...71561_2667.jpg

The mods:
-JHM solid short shifter, delrin stabilizer rod bushings
-JHM upgraded strength tranny rebuild w/redline MT90 trans fluid
-VAST custom tuned Full stage 3+ K04’s P&P exhaust mani’s, GG injectors, RS4 airbox/ accordion/MAF, hitachi MAF sensor, RS4 inlet pipes, etc.
-updated new coolant temp sensor and lower-temp after-run coolant pump sensor
-VAST water/methanol injection kit
-VAST stage 3 Ceramic/organic hybrid clutch, RS4 PP
-RS4 motor and trans mounts, Stern power ring center diff mount, Stern polyurethane rear diff mounts, VAST polyurethane front snub mount
-AWE DTS
-Milltek 3” CB exhaust, comes w/ rear muffler delete mod.
-Piggie dp’s
-Zimmerman/PBR ceramic brakes
-Innovate AFR wideband O2 kit and gauge
-Eibach pro lowering springs (25” front ride height) with Bilstein sport shocks
-Neuspeed 18mm rear swaybar
- RS4 IC’s
-Bailey sport DV’s
-upgraded “T” TBB
-new N75 valve
-N249 valve delete
-VAST high-flow fuel pump and new fuel filter

[topgearstig]

does it make sense to go gt25 with a tip trans? I need to replace my k03's and am thinking about a gt for reliability.

[InLoveWithMyS4]

does it make sense to go gt25 with a tip trans? I need to replace my k03's and am thinking about a gt for reliability.

It would take a ton of money to make the tip strong enough to withstand the power of a GT (like >10k)...you are better off selling your tip and buying a 6spd if you want that kind of power.

[Dr.Duct]

Im planning to put gt25s instead of ko4s in to my car, you can make little less than 500hp with them and with original parts inside the motor and it still should be "safe". Over 500hp is propably too risky.
WIth ko4s you cant take that much.
If you dont look kits, and do little bit more by yourself you can do it at the same price than with k04s.
But if you buy everything what it needs from performance stores, the price is far from that what you pay from k04 kit.
I have hardware for manifold (TIG welding, no ss), 3" DP:s(ss) and exhaust(ss).
You could try to use RS4 clutch, but i dont know will it last in normal daily drive or in strip, perhaps its better to buy real clutch.
RS4 maf, bigger injectors can purchase kind of low price, then you need to remap it.
Oh, i have fmic in garage ready for it too, and it doesnt cost as much as RS4 coolers does, and i have heard that it is even better than RS4 coolers.
So, i believe my setup will cost about 4500 euros (aprox. 6000$).
I do also have 2.8 heads and cams in my engine, and NX-kit, will see how it will stick together, better pray that nothing comes out of block.

you my friend are the biggest noob.. Just stop talking and do some real research.. all of this stuff and you dont have rods listed. You wont see any night and day difference from gt's to ko4's without rod's. do research before you come on here talking about cams and nitrous and praying the block will hold 500hp..

[gmann]

you my friend are the biggest noob.. Just stop talking and do some real research.. all of this stuff and you dont have rods listed. You wont see any night and day difference from gt's to ko4's without rod's. do research before you come on here talking about cams and nitrous and praying the block will hold 500hp..

x2...

Do your homework. Don't make us do everything for you, it's YOUR car so YOU do the stuff. And YOU do it the way YOU want to, not the way WE tell you to. We all had the same questions you do, but most of us used the search button or we got flamed for not using it.

[revhards4]

Jesus guys...this is a forum let him ask questions. If you don't want to answer use your mouse and click the back button, sheeesh.

[gmann]

Jesus guys...this is a forum let him ask questions. If you don't want to answer use your mouse and click the back button, sheeesh.

Asking for opinions on what people have seen and done are one thing, but for someone to ask what exactly they should do because they don't want to do research is another.

[RolledMySTi]

Well put together jibberjive. That has to be the one of the most complete explanations of turbo options for these cars. We should expand on that a little and make it a sticky so we don't get the constant posts about turbo options.

[MikeyB3]

^^ Agreed. I know I've had my fair share.

But the bottom line, IMO, is this (and I realize I'm a major n00b). With the K04 setup, yes, you're ONLY (heh) going to have about 400-450hp off the engine. BUT, you'll have somewhat of the peace of mind knowing that you didnt overdo it. The car will (most likely) remain a tamed beast, and still comfortably drivable, and reliable if done correctly.

With the other setups, and more customized parts, you do run the risk of the car busting and leaving you stranded. I want to keep driving. :P

I'd take a small hit on the power to have my car reliable for everyday. Make no mistake, someone who cant drive a powerful car isnt going to stand a chance against someone who can, regardless of power. Just my 2 cents.

[Janek]

you my friend are the biggest noob.. Just stop talking and do some real research.. all of this stuff and you dont have rods listed. You wont see any night and day difference from gt's to ko4's without rod's. do research before you come on here talking about cams and nitrous and praying the block will hold 500hp..

Im noob, yes.
I havent rods listed, and not even close everything what it needs, i didnt even mean to list everything.
But im not going to buy new rods,etc., thats why i stay under 500hp, 2.7 should take it with org. inside.
It may not be wise, but many have driven gt25s with stock engine.
Block will hold, but i meaned that nothing comes thru it.
That way it can be done with that price, but if you start to buy this and that, 1300$ to that, 1500$ for this, 4000$ over there, price is too big for some people.
And second, guy who i know have two new gt25s for sale almost in price of one, thats why im doing it.
Oh and about that block thing and nitrous, hp rises to 560-590hp, and im not sure will the engine hold that, so i may have to remove nitrous.
Im sorry if im not clear enough, language may have effect on that.

[Dr.Duct]

Im noob, yes.
I havent rods listed, and not even close everything what it needs, i didnt even mean to list everything.
But im not going to buy new rods,etc., thats why i stay under 500hp, 2.7 should take it with org. inside.
It may not be wise, but many have driven gt25s with stock engine.
Block will hold, but i meaned that nothing comes thru it.
That way it can be done with that price, but if you start to buy this and that, 1300$ to that, 1500$ for this, 4000$ over there, price is too big for some people.
And second, guy who i know have two new gt25s for sale almost in price of one, thats why im doing it.
Oh and about that block thing and nitrous, hp rises to 560-590hp, and im not sure will the engine hold that, so i may have to remove nitrous.
Im sorry if im not clear enough, language may have effect on that.

ko4/997 hybrids is what your looking for.. Save yourself the time, headache and money, and just do these with a nice custom tune. This will get you the hp you want and save you money.. all of the rs4 tid bits are cool, but are more or less bling factor.. Dont really add power for the money.


I noted the location so I pieced it together..

Your nitrous is pointless, because ko4's will put your right around what the stock rods can hold with a good tune.

[AudiA4_20T]

I really don't understand the point of anything over a K04 with a stock motor... MAYBE RS6s but even then, you could run meth and probably have the same outcome...

Now if you did rods, the possibilities are endless

[jibberjive]

Well put together jibberjive. That has to be the one of the most complete explanations of turbo options for these cars. We should expand on that a little and make it a sticky so we don't get the constant posts about turbo options.

Thanks It did take forever to type ha Anyone can feel free to add to that/take away from (specific companies or whatever) and make it a sticky. It def would save a lot of repetitive threads.

[GURUMAN]

I would love to have K04's on my car

[generationjdm]

ko4/997 hybrids is what your looking for.. Save yourself the time, headache and money, and just do these with a nice custom tune. This will get you the hp you want and save you money.. all of the rs4 tid bits are cool, but are more or less bling factor.. Dont really add power for the money.


I noted the location so I pieced it together..

Your nitrous is pointless, because ko4's will put your right around what the stock rods can hold with a good tune.

Doesnt matter if you put a gt35r comp wheel in that k04 as long as the turbine side is that small it will and does mean nothing. i dont care what dyno #s showed means nothing as we all no how easy they are to trick/fool, the turbine side can only flow so much and it's near its limits with the factory k04 comp wheel.....

[4RingsCircus]

GTs and the accompanying boost lag seems more suited for the track, unless you are interested in REALLY big dollar engine mods for generating the exhaust gases needed for lower RPM boosting. Not that i'm an expert, far from it. When I see a well tuned K04 avant destroy GT25/28 cars in real world runs, that is all I need to see. I believe 1/4 mile track times, and Dybo runs are the stomping grounds of these purpose built machines.

Since I daily drive, I work from the logic that $9000 for a well supported and complete K04 system (including labor) is all the money I need to spend to do fine in the real world.

Spending extra for different headers, plumbing, tranny pieces, rods, head work, and still lose out on midrange torque for daily use seems all bad for a guy like me.

To those building a second car/track toy, the GT turbos are a provocative and very appealing option.

And I would not recommend 500WHP on the stock internals, unless you don't plan on launching it but very very rarely.

Just my opinion, nothing more!

[generationjdm]

You clearly seen a poorly running gt car then no doubt. From everything ive seen gt2554s and gt2560ss spool sooner and make more power then rs6ss at less boost everywhere so if rs6ss spool so well then i guess the gt25ss do to. I think the turbos most people are getting confused by is the larger turbos like gt2860ss and gt2871ss when judging lag.. I promises you a well running gt25 car on pump gas and less boost will destroy a maxed out race gas high boosted rs4/k04 car..

[Das General]

Aside from Doms... I haven't seen a well running GT car. Maybe VASTs car, but that has gone MIA.

I was really disappointed in the outcome of a ASP GT28 car when it ran Jacksons PJ K04 wagon.

[slkdik]

to me 9k seems like way too much for a ko4 setup. that would almost be the extreme example of what it would cost, unless of course you are including labour costs. (edit: my bad i jsut reread and see that you were including labour, which as i said below still makes your ko4 setup 5-7k)

at that rate my gt25 setup is coming in way under a ko4 setup. however the average ko4 setup cost of lets say, oh about 5-6k??? is still not any less then what ive put into my gt25 setup. althouh i may be a rare example as i purchased guruman's old setup and fueling which saved me big time. however there are other options available for brand new parts that wont come in that much more, expecially considering all the extra hardware you get, ie. headers, inlets, downpipes, etc.

if you were to add these into a ko4 setup cost then again you would be on the same level price wise. however you and others may argue that, "well you dont really need those thigns with a ko4 setup..." which is valid, but again im just throwing around examples..

so whats my point? i guess im not quite sure.. hahaha

[Dr.Duct]

to me 9k seems like way too much for a ko4 setup. that would almost be the extreme example of what it would cost, unless of course you are including labour costs. (edit: my bad i jsut reread and see that you were including labour, which as i said below still makes your ko4 setup 5-7k)

at that rate my gt25 setup is coming in way under a ko4 setup. however the average ko4 setup cost of lets say, oh about 5-6k??? is still not any less then what ive put into my gt25 setup. althouh i may be a rare example as i purchased guruman's old setup and fueling which saved me big time. however there are other options available for brand new parts that wont come in that much more, expecially considering all the extra hardware you get, ie. headers, inlets, downpipes, etc.

if you were to add these into a ko4 setup cost then again you would be on the same level price wise. however you and others may argue that, "well you dont really need those thigns with a ko4 setup..." which is valid, but again im just throwing around examples..

so whats my point? i guess im not quite sure.. hahaha

you people and your focking cost math...

first off.. your a moron if you spend 5k on ko4's.. Its people that are lazy.. Dont want to do the research and dont want to look around..

people that say of well all of the fluids, motor mounts, clutch etc etc etc.. thats b.s.. It has to be done on both and is more expensive to do on Gt's.. You arent going any fast on a stock bottom end with GT's over ko4's.. A well tuned ko4's car will run with a GT car. build the motor?? Tack on an extra few grand to do it right and make it last.

for the record.. i had ko4/rs6 hybrid kit.. all done up and ready to roll for about $2700.00. Patient's and smart buying.

[Dr.Duct]

Doesnt matter if you put a gt35r comp wheel in that k04 as long as the turbine side is that small it will and does mean nothing. i dont care what dyno #s showed means nothing as we all no how easy they are to trick/fool, the turbine side can only flow so much and it's near its limits with the factory k04 comp wheel.....

how about justin's car?? and dap's 997 hybrid car's??

I dont see any reliable GT car's on stock bottom ends putting down fat's time or 1/4 mile times like that. or even marc's silver car..

Are we still going over the same arguement that we've had for the last 6-7 months??? And Gt cars are still at the same place...

[Dr.Duct]

Aside from Doms... I haven't seen a well running GT car. Maybe VASTs car, but that has gone MIA.

I was really disappointed in the outcome of a ASP GT28 car when it ran Jacksons PJ K04 wagon.

vids?? that car is just a joke in its own..ASP reminds me of little rich kids with daddys money going around and buying dumb setups.

[Reaxion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsAGwLFb4Ts

[Das General]

vids?? that car is just a joke in its own..ASP reminds me of little rich kids with daddys money going around and buying dumb setups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6viw...eature=related

And Jackson vs. ASP RS6 car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t--Xw...eature=related

[slkdik]

you dont need to be an ass duct. i was referring to 4ringscircus's comment on a 9k ko4 setup. i indeed felt it was way to high. and just threw out 5k+. i agree it can be done for much less, as i have put together my gt25 kit for less then what i qouted for the ko4's.

it was my effort to search and look around that enabled me to do this. much like your mention of oil, gaskets, etc. being the same for both, getting a good deal on x or y setup can be done for both if the effort is made.

you comment that a well tuned and running ko4 car will be as fast as a gt car is a bit wrong also. its very true that yes a well running ko4 could be faster, but how about you compare a well running properly tuned ko4 car to a well running properly tuned gt25 car. if you were to do that there would be no comparison. the gt car will win. however there are few well running gt cars at the moment, so it makes that comparison hard. some of you just like to keep refering to asp's car/cars, which we all know arent good examples. just give the gts the time that the ko4s have had to be perfected. you referance two cars out of hundreds with many more years of tuning support then any gt car.

[S-Power]

because of this, I cant wait to see the results of deb's single kit

[slkdik]

i agree that the single turbo application will bring a whole new dimension to the game, and will make thigns even more interesting. the more options the better!!

[michael66899]

^^Those vids are great, Jackson's car is one fast K04, but talk about even more bad rep for ASP, they better get their ish together. I want to see Guru line up with a K04 car just for comparisons sake and quiet down all the haters.