Interesting drive train loss information

[vinny.dtw]

So I know this is not the most scientific way to calculate the cars power, but it seems to be a good average. I went and dynolicious'd my car last night, obviously the results were less then inspiring. Here is the results

0-10 1.47
0-20 2.44
0-30 3.73
0-40 5.18
0-50 6.83
0-60 9.26
0-70 11.93
0-80 15.90

60' 3.13
1/8 11.26
1000' 14.45
1/4 mile 17.18 at 83.6mph

peak whp. 140...


Now the interesting part is, I did a quarter mile run about last year at the same time. And I had very very similiar results 16.9 being best, and 17.2 being worse. So it seems that dynolicious seems relatively accurate to an extent. Here are my mods, as of now, APR 1+ / TT225 / Magnaflow Exhaust / K&N Drop in filter. Notice my trap speed is the SAME as stock manual trap speeds, and about the same time as well...

http://www.mjbmotorsport.com/sitebui...medatabase.htm

Now the most interesting part. Realizing that I am on a tiptronic, and with APR claiming their 1+ setup bringing 235 to the crank, I've lost about 40% in drive train lost?!?!?!?! Now that sucks BIG TIME. I realize being a traditional awd system, that our drive train loss already sucked, but paired with a tiptronic and AWD....who woulda thunk its about 40%. Rough estimate I know, and not very scientific, but interesting none the less. I suppose we will find out when I throw on the GTRS on the car. My goal is to only yield 250whp, so i would have to put 400 to the crank in order for that to happen. I guess that is NOT going to happen. Can someone please chime in, as to how our drivetrain is robbing us of that much power?

[AudiA4Turbo22]

i keep telling people:

quattro: 25% loss

tiptronic: 15% loss

[vinny.dtw]

I want to know why...

[AudiA4Turbo22]

i'm guessing it is all in the torque converter. but i have no idea auto's just suck in HP numbers.

[F16HTON]

Vinny, the easiest way to figure out the DT loss is to dyno a bone stock car on the same or similar day.

A good rule of thumb is that a dynojet typically has about 25% DT loss.

I can see a TIP easily having 5-10% more DT loss than a MT car since you use a viscous coupling (torque converter) tt transfer the poser from the motor to the transmission.

[vinny.dtw]

Car won't be stock that much longer, and I suppose I can turn off APR to try it to. I am going to a real mustang dyno before i put in my GTRS. But it almost seems ludicris how much we are losing to the drivetrain. If you think about the math, some of the higher horsepower b5/b6's are losing ALOT of power to quattro.

[KareemA4]

that's a big drivetrain loss!!
What's the drivetrain loss on a CVT?

[AudiA4Turbo22]

whp to bhp? how to do?

[sean1.8t]

whp to bhp? how to do?

on a quattro manual car?

give it between 22 and 25% loss (DTL).

so say you dyno'd at 210Awhp. -> 210 x .78(22% DTL = 136


now take vinney's. he made according to the dynolicious, 140Awhp

140 / .60(using his 40% DTL) = 233bhp.


btw, i don't believe quattro + tip will equal 40%. 30% seems more realistic. 35% tops.

now get that turbo in vin!

[B6Lovin]

^from what i saw on a mustang dyno (at an all audi dyno day) all the quattro cars were averaging about 30% DT loss... everything there was a manual.

this is everything from URs4/6's to B5's to C5A6's to my B6
the only exception all day was a TT... but that's fake quattro

[czero]

hmm you really shouldn't be seeing more then 25% drivetrain loss.
I have dynolicious also and trust me the whp numbers are not accurate at all.
You definitely do not have 40% drivetrain loss though =]
One thing to consider is that your car is older and may not be performing at the same level as whatever car APR tested theirs on. I tested dynolicious in my roommates gti vr6 with intake and exhaust and it said it made some rediculously low number to the wheels also.
Take it with a grain of salt and remember that the vehicle weight has to be as close as possible to accurate and that if the phone jiggles at all it's going to alter everything.

[jackyaudi]

Guys, even 30% drive train loss is a lot on a Quattro+Tip!! I would only imagine a GTRS on an A4 without that Quattro or Tip.

But hey, nothing beats the Quattro. Last winter I raced some guy with a Chrysler in the snow, and I could not even see him with my mirrors.. I dont think he knew I had a quattro but thats too bad for him. oh, and I had brand new winter tires to make things worse for him. I feel bad for his GF now that I think about it.

[KPC1.8TQuat]

I can see a TIP easily having 5-10% more DT loss than a MT car since you use a viscous coupling (torque converter) tt transfer the poser from the motor to the transmission.

What about with an upgraded torque converter and valvebody from Level 10? After reading this post I'm not so sure about my goals with a GT71R elim anymore.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^the torque converter wont affect how much power u lose it's an automatic regardless and it has a torque converter, this is why manufacturers are making manual automatics like the DSG or MBZ's epic wet clutch transmission. the fact of the matter is that we're automatics and for the bonus of not having t shift we lose a few ponies.

here's a cool thread explaining:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=75062

[demea]

0-60 9.26

If that's what your running with those mods, something is wrong with your car...and it isnt drivetrain loss or a tiptronic issue. My GIAC FXK03 tip pulls real nice (for what it is) and it certainly doesnt take 9 seconds to reach 60.

[phantom b6]

that's a big drivetrain loss!!
What's the drivetrain loss on a CVT?

From what I understand... about 15% give or take. A CVT doesn't have a torque converter that sucks up power. I know Audi advertises the CVT "Quick as a manual."

I did a rolling 5-60 with just the stopwatch on my iPhone on a decently steep incline (maybe like 45*) and it was a crappy road so I spun through first and second and it was still 6 seconds on the dot.

[KareemA4]

^^thats really good
and your on a stock turbo!
your B6 is my B6s' idol
lol

[vinny.dtw]

If that's what your running with those mods, something is wrong with your car...and it isnt drivetrain loss or a tiptronic issue. My GIAC FXK03 tip pulls real nice (for what it is) and it certainly doesnt take 9 seconds to reach 60.

I doubt it, I still spike 22 hold 19psi till 4.5k + and then it heads south from there. Which is normal. Unless my boost gauge is whacked. Dynolicious may not be that accurate, but i wouldn't say its too far off. Judging from how close it was matched to my very own quarter mile time, it should be only off by a few tenths...Regardless still SHITTY results.

I'm determined to find out what my DT loss is. Prior to going GTRS, i will go to a real dyno, dyno my stock program, APR 1+, and then shortly after the GTRS.

[KPC1.8TQuat]

. on a decently steep incline (maybe like 45*)

I doubt very much it was 45*

That is a lot steeper than you think.

Think of it this way. The steepest ski slope run (in bounds) on the East Coast is White Heat at Sunday River. That's about 45* The most extreme skiers in the world do 55* degree runs in the back country. Snow won't even stick to a mountain at greater than 65*

I bet you were closer to 20* or less.

[vinny.dtw]

From what I understand... about 15% give or take. A CVT doesn't have a torque converter that sucks up power. I know Audi advertises the CVT "Quick as a manual."

I did a rolling 5-60 with just the stopwatch on my iPhone on a decently steep incline (maybe like 45*) and it was a crappy road so I spun through first and second and it was still 6 seconds on the dot.

Theres a huge difference between CVT, and Tiptronic. Not only in the transmission itself, but CVT = FWD, Tiptronic = Quattro...And are you sure you weren't going DOWNhill?

[phantom b6]

Theres a huge difference between CVT, and Tiptronic. Not only in the transmission itself, but CVT = FWD, Tiptronic = Quattro...And are you sure you weren't going DOWNhill?

LOL I know.. I was just responding to kareem

And yeah.. I was going uphill

[phantom b6]

I doubt very much it was 45*

That is a lot steeper than you think.

Think of it this way. The steepest ski slope run (in bounds) on the East Coast is White Heat at Sunday River. That's about 45* The most extreme skiers in the world do 55* degree runs in the back country. Snow won't even stick to a mountain at greater than 65*

I bet you were closer to 20* or less.

Yeah you're right... I had a feeling I was off and shouldn't have given a number. Anyway.. it was a good incline.

[KPC1.8TQuat]

Just wait until the A4 gets an S-tronic DSG.

[mike-2ptzero]

so say you dyno'd at 210Awhp. -> 210 x .78(22% DTL = 136

What exactly were you trying to say there because it doesn't seem to make any sense?

whp to bhp? how to do?

Its basically a simple fraction math equation. whp/bhp x 78/100 with 78 being the % of the power made at the wheels on a car with a 22% DTL.

(whp x 100)/78 = chp.

[ScaryGary]

We're about the same level as far as mods go, but there is no way your tip is causing you to be more than 2 seconds slower than my 6-speed. I average 6.74 seconds 0-60 on pocketdyno+.

[Charlescrs6]

9 is rediculous... My stock 3.0 is 7.5 to 60, courtesy of dynolicious

edit: i'm chicktronic too

[AudiA4Turbo22]

9 is not ridiculous i have the same car and exact same mods including exhaust brand. My car did an 11 sec to 60 on a 75 degree night on a flat road. these cars really do suck with tiptronics

[vinny.dtw]

What exactly were you trying to say there because it doesn't seem to make any sense?



Its basically a simple fraction math equation. whp/bhp x 78/100 with 78 being the % of the power made at the wheels on a car with a 22% DTL.

(whp x 100)/78 = chp.

I dont get your calculations actually, can you elaborate Mike? How I interpreted the calculations of seans, and how I did it this. Given the following examples.

Your car lets say has 235 crank hp, you dyno'd your car and you got for example 150 whp. So you take 150 whp / 235 chp to get a number of .63829xxx. Then take 1-.638 would approx the % loss .36 which equates to 36% drive train lost? Or is there some sort of misc. thing I am missing...because thats a straight common sense calculation.

[Charlescrs6]

Just keep it in S or D, I'm sure you get faster 0-60's in S then you do using TIP

[mike-2ptzero]

I dont get your calculations actually, can you elaborate Mike? How I interpreted the calculations of seans, and how I did it this. Given the following examples.

Your car lets say has 235 crank hp, you dyno'd your car and you got for example 150 whp. So you take 150 whp / 235 chp to get a number of .63829xxx. Then take 1-.638 would approx the % loss .36 which equates to 36% drive train lost? Or is there some sort of misc. thing I am missing...because thats a straight common sense calculation.

Well your trying to figure out how much driveline loss. So the way your doing it is basically the same thing, I just showed it as a fraction equation. So your using 1 as the whole while I am using 100% as the whole.

For what your doing (150 x 100)/235 would tell you that 150whp is 63.83% of the chp and that means it would have a 36.17% DTL.





On my other post I was showing how AudiA4Turbo22 an easy way to figure out what a car makes for at the crank when already knowing what it makes at the wheels and the DTL.

Lets say a car makes 300whp and it has a 25% DTL. That means 75% of the power is made at the wheels.

(300 x 100)/75 = 400chp

400(chp) - 25%(DTL)= 300whp

(300 x 100)/400 = 75 which equals to a 25% DTL.

[NyteEscape]

hmm, since my b6 is still stock powerwise, i should probably get it dyno'd...

if i do that, could i use 170hp as a legitimate crank horsepower rating to compare?

[mike-2ptzero]

hmm, since my b6 is still stock powerwise, i should probably get it dyno'd...

if i do that, could i use 170hp as a legitimate crank horsepower rating to compare?

Yes. That will give you a baseline to get the DTL % that you will then use on that dyno any time you run on it after doing mods.

[PCYC]

I am so lost...

[ThreePointOhh]

I am so lost...

lol... they're saying the same thing like a synonym

[B6Lovin]

I tested dynolicious in my roommates gti vr6 with intake and exhaust and it said it made some rediculously low number to the wheels also.

im resisting cracking on you right now so hard it's not even funny.


really, a lot of what you said in that post is true --- but don't use that as a basis... cuz unless you're talking like 97whp i doubt it was that far off. btw just remember that it's basing your power #'s off the times you run. you have a crappy run and it says you made less power. a car on the dyno isn't bound by those same limits -- but at the same time a car putting down (for example) 300awhp on a dyno won't always run the same times, and might even lose to a car with less power... driver error is always present

[OCMI_Teddy]

and the different tranny's will have an effect.

between different cars that is...

[phantom b6]

Okay I did Dynolicious on my way home tonight.. 0-60 was 5.64. No brake stand, just floor it and go and the CVT has st000pid lag from a dead stop. The 0-60 was in less than ~300 feet because I let off and coasted after 60 and then it picked up the 330' a moment later.

[sean1.8t]

What exactly were you trying to say there because it doesn't seem to make any sense?

haha, wow i was going through that way too fast apparently. left out a few things and mixed up what i was doing too. i meant to type,

so say you dyno'd your engine at 210bhp. -> 210 x .78(22% DTL) = 164Awhp

[ScaryGary]

phantom.... did you go 1+ before w/m and your other mods? I wasn't aware that those parts were good for more than a second lower 0-60 times over 1+ and neuspeed TIP. Also, 25% shorter distance!

I'm not doubting you, I am trying to quantify my underestimation of the K03 with the right supporting mods.

I run an average 0-60 of 6.76 on 1+ and TIP in ~400 feet.

[phantom b6]

phantom.... did you go 1+ before w/m and your other mods? I wasn't aware that those parts were good for more than a second lower 0-60 times over 1+ and neuspeed TIP. Also, 25% shorter distance!

I'm not doubting you, I am trying to quantify my underestimation of the K03 with the right supporting mods.

I run an average 0-60 of 6.76 on 1+ and TIP in ~400 feet.

In order I did:

1, FMIC, Injectors 1+, TIP, Test pipe, Exhaust, Meth and lemmiwinks adjustments

You'd be surprised how much power is noticeably gained by advancing the timing with Lemmiwinks. The colder intake charge (FMIC+Meth) is what gives me the wiggle room to advance it.

Also to be noted I'm FWD CVT, so less drivetrain loss and no delay between shifts