Anyone seen/used these adjustable control arms?

[sCeRaXn]

A few months back i lowered the car and rode around for a few weeks without getting an alignment. I noticed that my front tires were wearing quickly so i went and got an alignment, but since theres so little adjustment with the stock suspension he wasnt able to get my camber where he wanted it. So ive been searching for some adjustable control arms...but every set ive found has either ceased production or nobody can get them.

This morning i got an email about PureMS' fall updates and noticed that theyre gonna have Stern adjustable control arms in stock on November 24th. Are these new products or have they been around for a while? If they have, then does anyone have experience with them? They are a little pricey, but if they can solve my tire wear problem then theyll pay for themselves in the long run.

For some reason AZ isnt letting me post the link, so youll have to copy and paste it.

http://www.purems.com/products/product.php/II=2681

[JDM EJ1 95]

you shouldnt be having a tire wear issue with your toe dialed in.


yes camber wears tires unevenly.. but it DOES NOT wear tires faster.

[sCeRaXn]

The toe is dialed in, its the camber thats causing the problems. The outside of the tire has atleast 1/8" more rubber than the inside, so yea its definitely wearing my tires faster. Getting the toe right did help a little with the tire wear, but its still wearing unevenly. I need to get new tires soon, so ive gotta find a way to fix this before i get them.

[JDM EJ1 95]

The toe is dialed in, its the camber thats causing the problems. The outside of the tire has atleast 1/8" more rubber than the inside, so yea its definitely wearing my tires faster. Getting the toe right did help a little with the tire wear, but its still wearing unevenly. I need to get new tires soon, so ive gotta find a way to fix this before i get them.

how long did it take to get that wear?

camber DOES NOT wear tires faster... no matter what any one tells you..

it wears tires uneven.. hence for example.. in 30k miles.. the inner treads on your tires are worn.. ok.. but if you had 0 camber.. the whole tire would be worn the same amount.

if your wearing the inside of some brand new tires in like 3k miles down to the wear bar then something else is obviously wrong.


either way.. you still have just about the same tire life (camber vs no camber) you still have to replace the tires at about the same intervals.. its just with camber you obviously feel as if your not getting the full use out of the tire.. because your wear is prominantly on the inside. its a VERY common misconception


but whatever..if you dotn beleive me go spend 500+ on those control arms and report back.

[Daft]

you shouldnt be having a tire wear issue with your toe dialed in.


yes camber wears tires unevenly.. but it DOES NOT wear tires faster.

Ummm.....

Uneven wear means that one portion of the tire wears faster than the rest.

Excessive negative camber from lowering the car will cause the inner edges to wear prematurely. You can balance the camber between left and right sides by loosening the whole subframe and adjusting it side-to-side during an alignment. The problem then becomes that the balanced out camber is still too negative and more of the car's weight rides on the inner edges than the outter 3/4 of the treaded surface.

If you've lowered the car, balanced out the camber (left/right) and still have extremely negative front camber values, the adjustable links or the K-MAC upper control arm bushings are the last option to correct it.

Of course if your front toe setting is toed in, you will see inner edge wear as well but, typically the toe setting wear occurs on one side due to a slight misadjustment. You will also see feathering occuring as the tire rubs diagonally.

[JDM EJ1 95]

Ummm.....

Uneven wear means that one portion of the tire wears faster than the rest.

Excessive negative camber from lowering the car will cause the inner edges to wear prematurely. You can balance the camber between left and right sides by loosening the whole subframe and adjusting it side-to-side during an alignment. The problem then becomes that the balanced out camber is still too negative and more of the car's weight rides on the inner edges than the outter 3/4 of the treaded surface.

If you've lowered the car, balanced out the camber (left/right) and still have extremely negative front camber values, the adjustable links are the last option.

yes it wears FASTER than the rest.. but all in all the actual tire material isnt wearing prematurely.

if you had 0 camber youd still have to replace your tires at about the same interval as if you had -2deg
provided toe is dialed in

like i said its a huge common misconception by tons of people.. when lowering a vehicle that the camber induces faster tire wear.. which in actuality it doesnt.


when you lower a car.. toe is pulled in as well. this is what causes premature wear.. if you get the toe fixed.. then you are back to normal tread wear.. besides the fact that its unevenly distributed...

but like i said you wont be replacing tires noticeably faster or more frequently if your toe is dialed in.

[LowA4]

I'll be installing them after the winter. I have some Stern products and am really satisified. The insides of my fronts wore withing about 5,000 before I got my alignment. I got the alignment done and they shifted the whole subframe and equalized it and it is muuuuuch better but still wears a tad. These will be a welcome mod for me.

[sCeRaXn]

yes it wears FASTER than the rest.. but all in all the actual tire material isnt wearing prematurely.

if you had 0 camber youd still have to replace your tires at about the same interval as if you had -2deg
provided toe is dialed in

Not true at all. Tires only wear how theyre supposed to under perfect conditions. At +/- .5deg of camber the tires will wear how theyre made to, but when you go further than that then theyll start wearing faster. All of the weight will be on a smaller portion of the tire, thus transferring more heat to that portion of the tire than it was made to compensate. This, along with the added weight, will cause that part of the tire to wear much faster than normally.

This was all explained to me by a BFG engineer at DragstockII a few years back. I used to think it was a myth to, but hearing it come from someone who actually helped create the tires changed my mind lol

[sCeRaXn]

I'll be installing them after the winter. I have some Stern products and am really satisified. The insides of my fronts wore withing about 5,000 before I got my alignment. I got the alignment done and they shifted the whole subframe and equalized it and it is muuuuuch better but still wears a tad. These will be a welcome mod for me.

Cool deal man. Be sure to let us know how it turns out. Hopefully ill have something figured out before then though. If not then ill be on my 2nd or 3rd set of tires by the time you give us an update lol

Ive got around 4500miles on my car since i lowered it and ive had a noticeable amount of extra wear since then. Like i said, the inside of the tire has about 1/8" less rubber than the outside. Id guess that i have around a month before ill need new tires...if not sooner.

[Daft]

yes it wears FASTER than the rest.. but all in all the actual tire material isnt wearing prematurely.

if you had 0 camber youd still have to replace your tires at about the same interval as if you had -2deg
provided toe is dialed in

like i said its a huge common misconception by tons of people.. when lowering a vehicle that the camber induces faster tire wear.. which in actuality it doesnt.


when you lower a car.. toe is pulled in as well. this is what causes premature wear.. if you get the toe fixed.. then you are back to normal tread wear.. besides the fact that its unevenly distributed...

but like i said you wont be replacing tires noticeably faster or more frequently if your toe is dialed in.

Ok. Let me make this clear......


A tire's contact patch is made to handle the entire load of the vehicle. It even carries a rating which is a numericle value: 92, 93, 94 etc...

When the camber is excessively negative, the full load is now focused into a much smaller area. While the tire can handle this, it creates extra friction on this area because the weight is not distributed evenly across the tire. Added friction creates added heat. Added heat causes this section to wear faster than the rest of the tire. This is why the inner edges become bald. While the outter edges are not wearing, this inner edge wear will occur QUICKLY.

I can tell you firsthand that the inner edges will show obvious signs of treadwear in 5,000 miles from the original date of installation of new tires.

Now you rotate the front tires to the rear of the car. The rear tires now take this abuse for 5,000 miles and the wear is identical to the ones that were moved to the back.

This is the best way to handle the situation because you can get 15-20,000 miles out of a set of tires.

If you forget to rotate them at 5,000, you can expect the tires to be down to smooth tread by 10,000. The last set of tires I replaced on my B5 A4 had 13,000 on them and they were just starting to show the metal belts at the inner edges. Meanwhile, the middle to outter tread sections still had roughly 4-5mm of tread depth remaining.

This was not a toe issue. This was not a control arm issue. I replaced the control arms 3 times on that B5 and checked my alignment at every set of new tires. The problem was that my front camber was always around -1.4 degrees. My rears were around -1.24 and didn't wear nearly as quick as the fronts.

On a non-lowered car, you can go 10,000 miles between rotations and still get even tire wear. For example, on my A6, I have 20,000 miles on a set of tires that I installed in April and they still have 5mm of tread depth remaining. Original tread depth was 10/32" or 8.5mm.

***The bottom line here is that running excessive negative camber will wear out the inner edges much faster than it would take to wear the whole tire's surface if the weight was spread evenly.***

BTW, here's an writeup I did on aligning the B5's suspension: Click.

The max recommended camber for the front axle is -1.08 <> -0.24 degrees. Lowered cars easily exceed -1.08 degrees.

[JDM EJ1 95]

what are we going to call excessive? -3deg?

my car has under 2 deg neg camber and its pretty damn low.

[sCeRaXn]

According to the BFG guy, +/-1 deg of camber change should be tolerable by most higher quality tires. It will be different on some cars because of their stock camber settings, but thats a general rule. My front camber is only -1.48deg and its wearing alot faster than my rears at -1.26deg. My tread was perfectly even when i lowered it, now the inside has worn 3/16th" more than the outside in a mere 4500 miles. If this keeps up ill be getting new tires like 4 times a year.

Daft-Thanks for the tip on rotating the tires. I figured it would help but i didnt know how imperative it was to do it at around 5k miles...it does make sense though.

[JDM EJ1 95]

<cannot rotate :(

[sCeRaXn]

Yea well id rather have those badass wheels and buy tires alot than having to rotate the stockers lol.

[JDM EJ1 95]

:)

on another note.. i still need to drop my car another inch. or 2

[sCeRaXn]

Hell no. I think it looks good just the way it is. Besides if you drop it another 2" youll have a snowplow...not a car lol

[Rated S]

Wow, my camber is -1.9 in the back and -1.7 in the front.

[mtxsho93]

To the OP - many thanks for posting this. I have also been searching for a solution for more camber adjustment for my C5 ever since I picked it up a few weeks ago. I will be looking into these. I would rather have adjustable arms over eccentric bushings. I wish there was something for the rear as well.

Ian

[sCeRaXn]

Anytime man. If you get them be sure to come back and tell us your impressions.

[MacDaddy]

If your not going to buy the ajustable arms, get your front tires re-mounted so the inside is now on the outside to even out your tire wear.

[sCeRaXn]

You wont ever see me doing that. My background is in road racing, so i like to haul ass on some of the windy back country roads around here. This car understeers too much for my comfort in the first place, putting all that weight on a bald part of the tire will just make things that much worse. Thanks for the help though.

[MacDaddy]

all the weight is already on a bald spot, hence why is it bald in the first place.
next time re mount your tires frequently before a bald spot occurs.

I think your car understeers because of the way you've set it up more than anything.

[mtxsho93]

all the weight is already on a bald spot, hence why is it bald in the first place.
next time re mount your tires frequently before a bald spot occurs.

I think your car understeers because of the way you've set it up more than anything.

I'm not familiar with his setup (I noticed that he has Vogtland coilovers) but I've heard many say that the B5/C5's are prone to understeer when pushed hard during HPDE's. I haven't had my C5 for very long but I've been starting to push it a little harder to get a feel for how it sets in the twisties. So far my observation has been that it falls somewhere between neutral and understeer.

Ian

[MacDaddy]

the audi likes to oversteer because of its incredibly light ass-end, so if its understeering easily i would say its been lowered too much or the driver is trying to take a sharp line into a corner.

I have no idea how the C5's handle

[mtxsho93]

I looked over the install instructions. My one concern is that it would be awfully difficult to adjust these with the wheels still mounted to the car. Because alignments are performed with the wheels mounted, adjustments may require a bit of trial and error until it's correct. Translation = alignments may be time consuming and/or costly for most people. It may require taking initial measurements for a baseline setting, jacking up the car, removing the wheel(s), making an adjustment, reinstalling the wheel(s), and remeasuring. Repeat until the alignment is within desired spec.

Its too bad the strut mounting holes can't be slotted. Or can they? I haven't had a chance to really look.

Ian

[MacDaddy]

I looked over the install instructions. My one concern is that it would be awfully difficult to adjust these with the wheels still mounted to the car. Because alignments are performed with the wheels mounted, adjustments may require a bit of trial and error until it's correct. Translation = alignments may be time consuming and/or costly for most people. It may require taking initial measurements for a baseline setting, jacking up the car, removing the wheel(s), making an adjustment, reinstalling the wheel(s), and remeasuring. Repeat until the alignment is within desired spec.

Its too bad the strut mounting holes can't be slotted. Or can they? I haven't had a chance to really look.

Ian

that certainly would make the installation and alignment expensive, you could slot the frame where the strut mounts go, but i don't think you would be able to move the strut mount around much as there isn't alot of space around there to begin with. I really don't like the slotting method much as its possible to bump it back out of alignment if you go over a large bump, it basically adds one more thing to go wrong IMO.

those offset upper control arms bushings are probably the best way to go, install them yourself and get a shop to even out the camber left to right by shifting the sub frame. Might not get you back to zero camber, but a little bit of negative camber is preferable as it will give you a better contact patch around corners.

[sCeRaXn]

all the weight is already on a bald spot, hence why is it bald in the first place.
next time re mount your tires frequently before a bald spot occurs.

I think your car understeers because of the way you've set it up more than anything.

The weight will never be on a bald spot on my car, because ill buy new tires before it gets that far. If it were bald on the inside, rotating the tires will do nothing but put you in more danger. If you have grip on the inside of your tire and are pushing through a corner and the weight transfers to the outside of the tire(where its bald) youll most likely end up wrapped around a tree.

"next time" ill already have the problem fixed so i wont have to worry about it. My car is set up the only way it can be set up right now. Its not like i have full race suspension thats tuned all wrong or something. I have bilstein struts and vogtland springs, i mean what could i have set up wrong? Like i said, my background is in Road Racing/autocross. I learned what i know from Skip Barber and Chip Ganase, i think i have a decent understanding of tuning suspensions and using them to their best ability.

BTW-The light ass end on this car only plays a tiny part in causing the understeer, and is the easiest part to cure. The fact that 95% of the weight of the motor/tranny are in front of the front axles plays the biggest role. Then you add the horrible suspension geometry that almost helps body roll(which is why a rear sway helps so much), and the ungodly brake bias to mix and its easy to see why it understeers. The brake bias is so bad that you cant even trail brake into a steep sweeper to help the understeer. If it wasnt awd then it would br downright dangerous in the twisties.

[NogaroSB]

the audi likes to oversteer because of its incredibly light ass-end, so if its understeering easily i would say its been lowered too much or the driver is trying to take a sharp line into a corner.

I have no idea how the C5's handle

uhhh B5 S4's most certainly do NOT have the tendency to oversteer. Audi=understeer

[MacDaddy]

oh boy, everyones going to gang up on me again because i'm the big bad guy who dosn't agree with everyone else.

if your audi is understeering its either because
1) your taking a crappy line into the corner
2)you have too much speed into the corner
3) your not modulating the gas properly
4) 1, 2 & 3

of course in craxn's case, his front tires have no grip because of the excessive negative camber because he just threw on a set of springs and shocks, you should have purchased the control arms at the same time or got some springs that didn't lower your car so aggressively.

ps. the B5 S4's weight distribution is 70/30 not 95/5 take it to a truck scale and see for yourself.

[sCeRaXn]

oh boy, everyones going to gang up on me again because i'm the big bad guy who dosn't agree with everyone else.

if your audi is understeering its either because
1) your taking a crappy line into the corner
2)you have too much speed into the corner
3) your not modulating the gas properly
4) 1, 2 & 3

of course in craxn's case, his front tires have no grip because of the excessive negative camber because he just threw on a set of springs and shocks, you should have purchased the control arms at the same time or got some springs that didn't lower your car so aggressively.

ps. the B5 S4's weight distribution is 70/30 not 95/5 take it to a truck scale and see for yourself.

Wow! I wouldnt even respond to this post, but youre spreading so much BS that i have to so that people dont believe it. First of all, the three things you mentioned could all lead to understeer, but they arent the only causes of it. In this case, none of them are true. I shoed the Honda Challenge champ car in 02 and won the H1 midified FWD class 3 years in a row. Im pretty sure i can find a good line in a corner that i go around twice a day, 5 days a week. Someone who knows absolutely nothing about "lines" would eventually pick it up through trial and error. Im not saying this to be cocky, i just dont want people to read this and think theyre doing something wrong when their car understeers. Everyone who has ever driven a B5S4 hard in the twisties knows this to be true. Its really common knowledge these days, and there are tried and true methods to aleviate it.

BTW-Learn to read. My "aggressive drop" is 1.8". My "excessive negative camber" is -1.48deg...theres no way in hell that amount of camber would cause understeer. If anything, it should help get rid of it. Also, I said that 95% of MOTOR/TRANNY weight is on front of the FRONT AXLES. I didnt say anything about the cars total weight distribution. If these arms were available when i lowered my car then they wouldve been on it. I didnt get an alignment at first because i was waiting to find a way to correctly adjust it. Stop assuming things and actually read the facts.

[Daft]

oh boy, everyones going to gang up on me again because i'm the big bad guy who dosn't agree with everyone else.

if your audi is understeering its either because
1) your taking a crappy line into the corner
2)you have too much speed into the corner
3) your not modulating the gas properly
4) 1, 2 & 3
.

I have to disagree here. Audis are very well known for understeering. The main reason is that the engines are pushed so far forward in the engine bay that there is weight hanging in front of the wheels and it drags the front wheel straight through the corner.

The newer cars 2008+ have been designed so that the engine sits on top of the front wheels instead of hanging in front.

[andream88]

I have to disagree here. Audis are very well known for understeering. The main reason is that the engines are pushed so far forward in the engine bay that there is weight hanging in front of the wheels and it drags the front wheel straight through the corner.

The newer cars 2008+ have been designed so that the engine sits on top of the front wheels instead of hanging in front.

^^^^ x2

[Mike@PureMS]

I looked over the install instructions. My one concern is that it would be awfully difficult to adjust these with the wheels still mounted to the car. Because alignments are performed with the wheels mounted, adjustments may require a bit of trial and error until it's correct. Translation = alignments may be time consuming and/or costly for most people. It may require taking initial measurements for a baseline setting, jacking up the car, removing the wheel(s), making an adjustment, reinstalling the wheel(s), and remeasuring. Repeat until the alignment is within desired spec.

Its too bad the strut mounting holes can't be slotted. Or can they? I haven't had a chance to really look.

Ian

This isn't an issue at all.
The control arm adjusting screw is centered on each control arm and actually VERY easy to reach when performing an alignment. No need to remove the tires at all when doing an alignment. From under the car it's very easy to adjust these.

[MacDaddy]

Wow! I wouldnt even respond to this post, but youre spreading so much BS that i have to so that people dont believe it. First of all, the three things you mentioned could all lead to understeer, but they arent the only causes of it. In this case, none of them are true. I shoed the Honda Challenge champ car in 02 and won the H1 midified FWD class 3 years in a row. Im pretty sure i can find a good line in a corner that i go around twice a day, 5 days a week. Someone who knows absolutely nothing about "lines" would eventually pick it up through trial and error. Im not saying this to be cocky, i just dont want people to read this and think theyre doing something wrong when their car understeers. Everyone who has ever driven a B5S4 hard in the twisties knows this to be true. Its really common knowledge these days, and there are tried and true methods to aleviate it.

BTW-Learn to read. My "aggressive drop" is 1.8". My "excessive negative camber" is -1.48deg...theres no way in hell that amount of camber would cause understeer. If anything, it should help get rid of it. Also, I said that 95% of MOTOR/TRANNY weight is on front of the FRONT AXLES. I didnt say anything about the cars total weight distribution. If these arms were available when i lowered my car then they wouldve been on it. I didnt get an alignment at first because i was waiting to find a way to correctly adjust it. Stop assuming things and actually read the facts.

I don't think you care what other people think, you just don't want to look bad. but going on like a broken record about road racing really isn't convincing me, and i doubt its convincing anyone else.

for someone who thinks I'm not reading things properly you should heed your own advice, i never said those 3 things are the only cause of understeer, i didn't even insinuate that either. Your mention of hondas has nothing to do with what we are talking about, if this was a comparison between a FWD A4 and a FWD civic, i'd give you that, but we are talking about an AWD audi, completely different machines. which handle very differently from each other.

1.8" is a very aggressive drop when you consider the S4 is already half an inch lower than a A4. you've slammed your car, you have no alignment at all, not even a toe adjustment. I hardly think you have a proper impression of how this car is suppose to handle, and i recommend you fix it as soon as possible for your own safety and the safety of the other people on the road.

but in all honesty, I'm tired of this thread, I tried to help you by suggesting re-mounting your tires to even out your tire wear in the meantime and you immediately went on the defensive citing your race car driver experience and whatever else. I really don't care if you want to spend money on tires that you don't need to spend.

let me just say this, If My S4 seems to handle completely different from everyone else's here, either I'm doing something different or my car has totally different suspension. I'm willing to bet its my driving.

[sCeRaXn]

I don't think you care what other people think, you just don't want to look bad. but going on like a broken record about road racing really isn't convincing me, and i doubt its convincing anyone else.

for someone who thinks I'm not reading things properly you should heed your own advice, i never said those 3 things are the only cause of understeer, i didn't even insinuate that either. Your mention of hondas has nothing to do with what we are talking about, if this was a comparison between a FWD A4 and a FWD civic, i'd give you that, but we are talking about an AWD audi, completely different machines. which handle very differently from each other.

1.8" is a very aggressive drop when you consider the S4 is already half an inch lower than a A4. you've slammed your car, you have no alignment at all, not even a toe adjustment. I hardly think you have a proper impression of how this car is suppose to handle, and i recommend you fix it as soon as possible for your own safety and the safety of the other people on the road.

but in all honesty, I'm tired of this thread, I tried to help you by suggesting re-mounting your tires to even out your tire wear in the meantime and you immediately went on the defensive citing your race car driver experience and whatever else. I really don't care if you want to spend money on tires that you don't need to spend.

let me just say this, If My S4 seems to handle completely different from everyone else's here, either I'm doing something different or my car has totally different suspension. I'm willing to bet its my driving.

You said if your S4 understeers its definitely one or all of the things you mentioned. I didnt have to insinuate anything, you laid it out there pretty plainly. Ive had plenty of seat time behind the wheel of fwd, rwd, and awd cars...so that takes care of that theory.

My car isnt slammed by any means of the word. Most peoples S4's are dropped much more than mine. I wouldnt have gone this low if i couldve found good springs that dropped it less. That doesnt really matter though because my toe was spot on after my first alignment, and the camber is at -1.48deg which still isnt extremely far out. I just want more adjustability so that i wont be wearing tires as quickly. Trust me, once my car becomes a hazard for me or other people it will be parked until the problem is fixed.

[sCeRaXn]

This isn't an issue at all.
The control arm adjusting screw is centered on each control arm and actually VERY easy to reach when performing an alignment. No need to remove the tires at all when doing an alignment. From under the car it's very easy to adjust these.

Thanks for chiming in about that. After mtx mentioned that i was sorta worried about it. Shop rates are insane these days, and if they had to do all that extra work the price would go from $100 to well over $200.

[Number54]

the audi likes to oversteer because of its incredibly light ass-end, so if its understeering easily i would say its been lowered too much or the driver is trying to take a sharp line into a corner.

I have no idea how the C5's handle

Wow. You clearly know nothing about this subject. Do yourself a favor and listen to Daft or sign up for a track event. Hopefully not too many people will be misinformed by your posts.

[2.slowT]

I almost got lost in this thread and forgot your question.

What about these??

http://store.anchormotorsports.com/cppadcoar1.html

[biketsai]

I have the CPP Adjustable control arms (not available anymore), but they look very similar. They are a really good investment (maybe not $500 worth though). I am below 25" to the ground and my alignment is still perfect. Even camber/toe on both sides and both EXACTLY where I want them at. The alignment guy at NTB had an easy time doing it as well.
If you have any questions, PM me

[MacDaddy]

Wow. You clearly know nothing about this subject. Do yourself a favor and listen to Daft or sign up for a track event. Hopefully not too many people will be misinformed by your posts.

please refer to the last sentence of my last post.