Finally a Built bottom end for the 4.2 has arrived

[3.0 King]

Thank you to those who take the time to read this and i hope this thread sparks some good conversation.

Whats up everybody. It's an exciting time for the 4.2 motor and the supercharger thats headed down the pipeline is going to rejuvenate the 4.2 scene. Many of the challenges facing the 4.2 are the same as what i faced with the 3liter. That said, leads me into why i'm writing this and to also raise some questions about the challenges that the 4.2 motor faces.

Ok, everybody knows that the 4.2 S4 is a great motor and the following is solid and loyal. Many have wanted more power and now there is a S/C headed for the 4.2. As with many N/A motors there is just not enough strength in the bottom end to hold up to high boost levels. It's human nature to keep pushing the envelope and Hp junkies will try to push the motor beyond the limits of what the stock S/C kit from VF is putting out. I.E. Smaller pulley will be the first question many will ask. If i raise the boost level by dropping the pulley size what will happen? Well lets start with the Eaton [email protected] running the VF kit and from what i've read maxes out around 9psi on this kit. The M90 is a great blower and is capable of much more boost to the tune of 16+psi. So as you can see the M90 has plenty of head room to up the boost. That said you can start to see how under worked the blower is with the VF kit and for good reason. IMO VF knows the 4.2 can handle some power but not as much as they probably would like. Yes the VF kit will give most folks the added power that there looking for but there will be those who will want to take it further and IMO this is where the problems begin.
As i stated ^^^N/A motor sometimes have a weak bottom end and are suspect to blown pistons under high boost levels . Everybody knows the stock VF kit will suit most folks but there are those that will say 500bhp is just not enough. I ran the M62@5psi maxing out around 9-10psi on the 3liter with no added mods other then a cat-back to start and as long as i did not create anymore power i was safe to a point but once i made a set of Dp's/catless and ran Supersprint headers for my car the power was there and you could feel by dropping the cats the car felt even more ready to bounce. Well once i did that i was breaking piston and it was not from the tune but because i had reached the limit of what the N/A 3liter could handle. IMO the same issue may come up with the 4.2. FYI as far as i know i'm the only person building built 3liters and now i have two built 4.2's to add to the list. What about the stock clutch on the S4? IMO just like the 3liter the stock clutch will do but it's probably not the best choice after adding an extra 100+hp's plus more TRQ it's something to think about. Heat is the enemy. I know the VF kit has a cooling system to aid in keeping normal operating temps but a oil cooler is something to think about? I could go on and on about furthering the performance of the 4.2 but i'll leave it at that for now. BTW i'm also a authorized dealer for Overland Parts.


Built 4.2 part list:

New OEM block
New OEM FFcrank
New OEM seals
New H-beam rods
JE 9.1 F/piston/pins
Deck cooled at customer request
Factory bore
Still looking for a head stud kit

Current project.
Built 4.2
Stock heads
RS4 FW/clutch
RS4 motor mnts.
Oil cooler
Dp's/catless
Supersprint cat-back
VF kit when its ready(possible port/polish of the M90 if Stiegemeier feels its going to improve performance will see what they say once the kit is ready)
Smaller pulley when VF kit is ready
Not sure if we will run meth on this set up yet still much to consider
Innovate wideband,oil pressure, boost gauge kit
Stasis cntr-diff-chng
SShifter

Waiting on you VF...lol

[Beelzeebub]

Interesting points...but, for a newb, what is meant by "N/A" motor? not applicable?

[mioStile]

This has the possibility of starting a whole other s4 tuning scene, like seen for the b5's. Only problem is price -

[NYCS4Avant]

Interesting points...but, for a newb, what is meant by "N/A" motor? not applicable?

Naturally Aspirated i.e. no forced induction

[WinterRunner]

Very interesting, what are the costs on all this roughly? I'm thinkin 10K+?

[bloodstar57]

Nice how bout some custom headers and is a must no question there imo meth injection

[Maverick]

Very interesting, what are the costs on all this roughly? I'm thinkin 10K+?

probably 20K+

[JMG]

probably 20K+

For 20k more you might as well get an RS4, but for the CPO and pre-owned S4s going for so cheap nowadays it might be worth it... except the RS4s will drop in price as well.

[Ill 3.0]

Maybe, but a sc on a 4.2 S4 running 10+ psi? RS4 wouldn't even be close in straightline performance. Big to Steve for stepping the game up for the 4.2 crowd too.

[WinterRunner]

For 20k more you might as well get an RS4, but for the CPO and pre-owned S4s going for so cheap nowadays it might be worth it... except the RS4s will drop in price as well.

I think once the B8's are starting to be seen regularly, RS4's will be seen at similar prices as low mileage S4's today...

On a side note.. Why didn't anyone ever try to produce a more aggresive cam for the 4.2? I would think many people would like the extra grunt and still have the reassurance of a N/A motor and it's reliability. Why is it always F/I for more power? I would think it would be a cheaper alternative as well.....

[Captain Insano]

For 20k more you might as well get an RS4, but for the CPO and pre-owned S4s going for so cheap nowadays it might be worth it... except the RS4s will drop in price as well.

I'm not singling you out JMG, because this gets said all the time while people modify cars...

NO, NO, NO, it's not the same at all. This car is going to hand an RS4 it's ass when he's done with it. So please, can we not bring this up again in this great thread. Also consider if his S4 is paid off he might not want to dink around with trying to get a 50K car right now which is the typical price of an RS4.

And I agree with the others I would look into the following:
--custom headers for FI application
--cams if you can find a mfg willing to work with you
--methanol injection if you are willing to run that on your car

I ran methanol injection on my 2004 STi and it was absolutely freaking awesome from a performance perspective. Like running race gas all the time. Just didn't like doing that in my daily driver car. If this isn't a DD car you are bulding I would seriously consider it. You can run meth and race gas both so don't limit yourself thinking you will do one or the other.

You are right on with your thinking on the oil cooler. I also ran one of those on my 2004 STi. I ran larger radiator too. The oil cooler dropped the oil temps drastically which in turn helped the coolant temps too. Win/win. The oil cooler definitely did alot more than the larger radiator and the lower temp t-stat I was running. I would say do all of these things if you can, but if you had to do just one I would do the oil cooler because I know from past experience it's the best of the three.

[Maverick]

For 20k more you might as well get an RS4, but for the CPO and pre-owned S4s going for so cheap nowadays it might be worth it... except the RS4s will drop in price as well.

besides what others said

if you go buy the RS4, you will want to put on a S/C and then want push even more out of it. lol

It's worth the money. I did this to my 3.0

[all 4 avant]

just curious...do you think the b7 s4 in tip will be able to handle the new power from the S/C or just the manual trannis?

[bloodstar57]

I'm not singling you out JMG, because this gets said all the time while people modify cars...

NO, NO, NO, it's not the same at all. This car is going to hand an RS4 it's ass when he's done with it. So please, can we not bring this up again in this great thread. Also consider if his S4 is paid off he might not want to dink around with trying to get a 50K car right now which is the typical price of an RS4.

And I agree with the others I would look into the following:
--custom headers for FI application
--cams if you can find a mfg willing to work with you
--methanol injection if you are willing to run that on your car

I ran methanol injection on my 2004 STi and it was absolutely freaking awesome from a performance perspective. Like running race gas all the time. Just didn't like doing that in my daily driver car. If this isn't a DD car you are bulding I would seriously consider it. You can run meth and race gas both so don't limit yourself thinking you will do one or the other.

^ +1 IMO with serious mods you should run Water/meth injection. My friends run in on there worked vette's(550+hp) and cobalt ss (300+hp) it helps so much and will save you from detonation.

[Beelzeebub]

Naturally Aspirated i.e. no forced induction

got it. thanks.

[Ill 3.0]

^ +1 IMO with serious mods you should run Water/meth injection. My friends run in on there worked vette's(550+hp) and cobalt ss (300+hp) it helps so much and will save you from detonation.

yes, but I'm not sure it would be a good idea to tune for the water/methanol to make more power on the VF setup. You could run water/methanol without adjusting fuel (other than what the fuel maps do based on programming) and that is a good idea to suppress detonation and allow hard driving in high ambient temps. But to try and get more power out of what VF has determined as safe, is asking for trouble, IMO. You want more than what VF offers? Go with built bottom end.

[Maverick]

just curious...do you think the b7 s4 in tip will be able to handle the new power from the S/C or just the manual trannis?

I can refer you to someone who will build your tranny.
you can either spend a lot of dough on getting a race spec TIP tranny or you can spend like 1.5K to upgrade your Torque Converter and Valve Body(you need to count in the labor to take out the two out of the tranny and then put them back in and shipping etc)

[3.0 King]

I'm not singling you out JMG, because this gets said all the time while people modify cars...

NO, NO, NO, it's not the same at all. This car is going to hand an RS4 it's ass when he's done with it. So please, can we not bring this up again in this great thread. Also consider if his S4 is paid off he might not want to dink around with trying to get a 50K car right now which is the typical price of an RS4.

And I agree with the others I would look into the following:
--custom headers for FI application
--cams if you can find a mfg willing to work with you
--methanol injection if you are willing to run that on your car

I ran methanol injection on my 2004 STi and it was absolutely freaking awesome from a performance perspective. Like running race gas all the time. Just didn't like doing that in my daily driver car. If this isn't a DD car you are bulding I would seriously consider it. You can run meth and race gas both so don't limit yourself thinking you will do one or the other.

You are right on with your thinking on the oil cooler. I also ran one of those on my 2004 STi. I ran larger radiator too. The oil cooler dropped the oil temps drastically which in turn helped the coolant temps too. Win/win. The oil cooler definitely did alot more than the larger radiator and the lower temp t-stat I was running. I would say do all of these things if you can, but if you had to do just one I would do the oil cooler because I know from past experience it's the best of the three.

^^^your comments about the oil cooler
again heat is the enemy.

[all 4 avant]

I can refer you to someone who will build your tranny.
you can either spend a lot of dough on getting a race spec TIP tranny or you can spend like 1.5K to upgrade your Torque Converter and Valve Body(you need to count in the labor to take out the two out of the tranny and then put them back in and shipping etc)

if i went with the cheaper route (1.5k), would i still have the TIP feature intact or would it just be a staright out auto?

[JMG]

Maybe you could beat a stock RS4, but for 50k I'd rather have a CPO RS4 DD under warranty than a modded S4 that you know will have a shorter shelf life... but that's just me. I'm not a modder, I don't have the time and time is money. In the long run after repairs, maintenance, and labor, the RS4 will come out cheaper. It's not as fun if you have the mod bug, and it might not be as fast, but for my lifestyle it would be my preference. That being said, my jaw would drop and I'd get a hard on if I saw a SC S4 with 500+hp and it would be something to admire.

[Mello]

www.revolvercam.com or www.schneidercams.com can make custom cams to your spec. I had a set made about 7 yrs ago from schneider and I was able to choose what lift and duration I wanted after going over it w/ my engine builder.

[cam]

engine failure is always a factor of a bad tune or an external part failing. Most of the time what you see is a fuel pump or injector failing, causing the motor to run lean and then that leads to a melted pistion.

So lets say one purchases the vf kit, all one would need is a smaller pulley and some way to tune the ecu, not easliy done, and im not talking about a piggyback, the car is going to need a custom tune (unitronic perhaps or even giac) to take full advantgage and to insure that the motor doesnt go boom. Also tuning the car on a watermeth setup would be a good idea, keep the temps down, keep the chance of catestrophic failure down.

boosted motors are tricky, however imho I think 450-500whp is easily attainable from the motor in stock form, maybe adding an aditional or bigger oil cooler, but the motor is stout from the factory.

so the question really should be, who is going to be the first to offer a custom tune for the s/c 4.2?

[Captain Insano]

www.revolvercam.com or www.schneidercams.com can make custom cams to your spec. I had a set made about 7 yrs ago from schneider and I was able to choose what lift and duration I wanted after going over it w/ my engine builder.

I was over at Buschur Racing a couple years ago for my STi and David B had custom revolvercams in his DD 9 second EvoRS... OMG The sound was incredible - nevermind the power they make. LOL... Anyway, he seemed to love them at the time and he is one of the most knowledgeable people in the ultra-competitive DSM/Evo drag scene. If he was using them they must make a pretty awesome cam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWG2LrGEFhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Cak...eature=related

Could you imagine an S4 built 4.2L engine with an aggessive revolvercam???? It would be unreal pulling up next to that on the street.
Thay make them for the 1.8T
http://www.revolvercams.com/vwaudi.html

So they probably wouldn't be opposed to doing custom set for 4.2L S4 engine.

[3.0 King]

cool, now for a minute lets drop the smaller pulley option and focus on just the possible gains from Dp's/catless, Port-polish M90. On average after PP the M90 has a 7-8% power gain. what does that mean in numbers? well if the VF kit puts the 4.2@500bhp then 7% of 500bhp is 35bhp. this will cost you under $500 from Stiegemeier. IMO A possible 35bhp gain and no custom tune required. Dp's/catless I guess should see 10-15hp. lets call it an even combined 40bhp gain and it will cost under $1500. In this crazy world of modding thats cheap. Now how many think the 4.2 can handle the extra power on top of what the blower is giveing you? IMO i think if someone were to do this on a stock block you may be asking for trouble.

[Buegie]

Maybe you could beat a stock RS4, but for 50k I'd rather have a CPO RS4 DD under warranty than a modded S4 that you know will have a shorter shelf life... but that's just me. I'm not a modder, I don't have the time and time is money. In the long run after repairs, maintenance, and labor, the RS4 will come out cheaper. It's not as fun if you have the mod bug, and it might not be as fast, but for my lifestyle it would be my preference. That being said, my jaw would drop and I'd get a hard on if I saw a SC S4 with 500+hp and it would be something to admire.

for some people at least, the fun of a high performance car is in building it, not so much buying it. Even if its more expensive/less reliable, there is something to be said about having something no one else does

[3.0 King]

for some people at least, the fun of a high performance car is in building it, not so much buying it. Even if its more expensive/less reliable, there is something to be said about having something no one else does

yeh yeh! somebody buy this guy a beer

[Captain Insano]

Exactly.

[Maverick]

if i went with the cheaper route (1.5k), would i still have the TIP feature intact or would it just be a staright out auto?

you will still have TIP. I use it everyday or I can simply leave it in auto(D mode).
I prefer in TIP because the shift is smoother

[Maverick]

www.revolvercam.com or www.schneidercams.com can make custom cams to your spec. I had a set made about 7 yrs ago from schneider and I was able to choose what lift and duration I wanted after going over it w/ my engine builder.

noob question, what benefits would I get with custom cams? better timing?

[CHECKERED]

My dream would be a stroker kit say 4.8-5.0L and 11.5:1 pistons…mmmm
NA Displacement FTW

[all 4 avant]

thanks maverick.

would there be a substancial difference in building a race spec TIP tranny vs. going with the 1.5K option to upgrade the torque converter and valve body...ie: tranny lifespan, or shifting speed?

i guess the question really is, if i could spend less to achieve the same result, what are the benfits of building the full race spec TIP over the lesser option?

thanks

[norsecarnut]

Maybe you could beat a stock RS4, but for 50k I'd rather have a CPO RS4 DD under warranty than a modded S4 that you know will have a shorter shelf life... but that's just me. .

Unless you want an Avant in north america.... then it's "what can we do for the S4 Avant....?" and the SC + misc items is the only way to go.

[Justincredible]

I definitely think this is going to be something to look into. If you think about it there should not be much standing in the way of someone putting a smaller pullie on and porting out the blower. In all reality there is not going to be a big need for a up tune because the MAF (as long as the injectors can keep up) will compensate. Stig says that they shift the blower curve when porting but this again works in our favor. So from a tuning stand point it is not like you are creating a new fuel curve. The curve is the same with a smaller pullie you just need more fuel. More GPS on the MAF= more fuel..So to a point you will be fine

I definitely think there is going to be a need for better parts its just what level what boost do you start to worry. I look at it like this. if you can stretch the car (just for example) to 12lbs of boost but 13+ is the breaking point. Then I would rather go to 12 and have say 500whp (example) then to spend the 10K on top of the cost of the supercharger to get maybe 50 more Hp.

There are currently cams available for our cars. Dr Schrick
http://www.avl-schrick.com/?control_id=44
IMO it is best to push some boost then go with the cams. look for headers and the other supporting mods

[JMG]

for some people at least, the fun of a high performance car is in building it, not so much buying it. Even if its more expensive/less reliable, there is something to be said about having something no one else does

yeah I get it ... I just don't have time for it, and since I would just be paying some tuner shop to install it, it is basically the same thing as buying a fast car. In the end I'm just shelling out money. I wouldn't be "building" it or even installing it myself. There is something to be said about having something no one else has, but since it's only a case of paying money and choice, what really is so special about paying for mods over paying extra for an RS4? You are just paying for it in both cases. Me choosing and buying a VF SC kit takes no extra skill or work. Anyway, that's just my modding rant... part of the reason I stopped before I really got into it. I understand how it can be a joy for most people.

[cam]

tuning and octane, once you have the two the motor will make power, tune it on vp import, no detonation, you can throw as much timing as you want at the motor, and it wont fail, tuning is going to be the key. cause pistons and rods are the easy part.

[Mello]

noob question, what benefits would I get with custom cams? better timing?

More power.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

Better than me explaining it :).

[Buegie]

yeah I get it ... I just don't have time for it, and since I would just be paying some tuner shop to install it, it is basically the same thing as buying a fast car. In the end I'm just shelling out money. I wouldn't be "building" it or even installing it myself. There is something to be said about having something no one else has, but since it's only a case of paying money and choice, what really is so special about paying for mods over paying extra for an RS4? You are just paying for it in both cases. Me choosing and buying a VF SC kit takes no extra skill or work. Anyway, that's just my modding rant... part of the reason I stopped before I really got into it. I understand how it can be a joy for most people.

No, I see where you're coming from. I'm probably in the same situation you are, if I could afford the RS4 I'd be all over it

[Maverick]

More power.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

Better than me explaining it :).

thank you, love that link.

[Maverick]

thanks maverick.

would there be a substancial difference in building a race spec TIP tranny vs. going with the 1.5K option to upgrade the torque converter and valve body...ie: tranny lifespan, or shifting speed?

i guess the question really is, if i could spend less to achieve the same result, what are the benfits of building the full race spec TIP over the lesser option?

thanks

you dont need a race spec TIP because you are not racing. built TC and VB will make your tranny rough on some shifit points like mine is doing. race spec will be worse. you want a nice DD which has kick ass power and some comfort.

i want to say that I have never driven a race spec TIP so I can't compare. if you want to speak with the guy that I dealt with, I will give you the number

[AudiOso]

A stroked and blown car would be da bomb... That though would be major $$$