AWE tuning GT28R

[msr1]

whats up guys im new to this forum and had a couple of questions, the thing is i got a gt28r kit from awe that havent isntalled yet so in the anxious of waiting i started reading about the turbo and trying to find info about the kit but dont see much.. though ive read that their 290hp program is a very mild tuning, because of the gt28r`s power deliverance and stress to rods... i was wondering why cant this turbo give more HP numbers to this engine, and if so wich software or extra mods can be done to achieve this? the kit says 1.4 bar wich is 20lbs, do you think the car can handle more than that?
From what ive seen before i think yes.. adding a boost controller and giving it more boost since they say the car can make a decent mixture of AF ratio utilizing the maf, air, map and o2 sensor... is this safe? seen people doing 26lbs with t3/t4s (pump gas) without problems but dont know if this is safe??
well if anyone there has some experience with this kit or any info on pulling more HP of the engine it will be appreciated.
Thanks

[Jeff]

whats up guys im new to this forum and had a couple of questions, the thing is i got a gt28r kit from awe that havent isntalled yet so in the anxious of waiting i started reading about the turbo and trying to find info about the kit but dont see much.. though ive read that their 290hp program is a very mild tuning, because of the gt28r`s power deliverance and stress to rods... i was wondering why cant this turbo give more HP numbers to this engine, and if so wich software or extra mods can be done to achieve this? the kit says 1.4 bar wich is 20lbs, do you think the car can handle more than that?
From what ive seen before i think yes.. adding a boost controller and giving it more boost since they say the car can make a decent mixture of AF ratio utilizing the maf, air, map and o2 sensor... is this safe? seen people doing 26lbs with t3/t4s (pump gas) without problems but dont know if this is safe??
well if anyone there has some experience with this kit or any info on pulling more HP of the engine it will be appreciated.
Thanks

Don't expect too much from the turbo itself. A GT28R is in reality a T25 turbine, with a compressor of a 28RS. I've done 320whp on a GT28RS with the AWE kit, but don't expect anything remotely close to that power range with a 28R. I am not sure of AWE's reasoning behind choosing such a poor turbo, so most of the lack in boost is made up with extra timing... which puts a lot more stress on your connecting rods. Will AWE offer a 28RS? Most likely not.

[A4ringedONE8T]

There 290hp file is the old file they offered and has claimed multiple bottom ends. With the new file that comes with the kit, you will be lucky to get 250whp. With stock bottom end, I would not do anything more with the setup than how it comes. The low end tq the 28R gives will bust a rod pretty easily without a doubt. Might want to consider selling it before you install it and move up to something bigger if you're looking for more power

[msr1]

Don't expect too much from the turbo itself. A GT28R is in reality a T25 turbine, with a compressor of a 28RS. I've done 320whp on a GT28RS with the AWE kit, but don't expect anything remotely close to that power range with a 28R. I am not sure of AWE's reasoning behind choosing such a poor turbo, so most of the lack in boost is made up with extra timing... which puts a lot more stress on your connecting rods. Will AWE offer a 28RS? Most likely not.

AWE states they use this turbo because its the "perfect match" of low - high end power, they dont offer a 28rs.. for their kit. Another thing that could make a bit difference is that my car is FWD and a european version, so maybe ill get a couple more horses... one of the 2 dynos of AWE's kit that ive found on the web, showed 275whp on a FWD!
So to see if im clear... u changed your gt28r for an RS, with AWE's software, injectors and everything else and pulled 320WHP?
Do you have as well the AWE FMIC? thats the one i have!
Thanks

[msr1]

There 290hp file is the old file they offered and has claimed multiple bottom ends. With the new file that comes with the kit, you will be lucky to get 250whp. With stock bottom end, I would not do anything more with the setup than how it comes. The low end tq the 28R gives will bust a rod pretty easily without a doubt. Might want to consider selling it before you install it and move up to something bigger if you're looking for more power

I want more power obviously, but first of all it will be very hard for me to sell this turbo.. so what i was expecting is maybe 300whp on a FWD with this turbo? I doubt that their software can do it, and since raising the boost could pop up a rod.. seems that the only way to do it is new turbo, or maybe rods?
The thing is how could a 1.8t stand 26psi on pump gas with a t3/t4 turbo, and not be able to do the same with a smaller turbo? He used to tweak the car with lemiwings and he didnt even had a software for that turbo, he used the X file for his previous k03 and just played a bit with timing and fuel with the fuel regulator.
Thanks

[Todd/AWE]

Don't expect too much from the turbo itself. A GT28R is in reality a T25 turbine, with a compressor of a 28RS. I've done 320whp on a GT28RS with the AWE kit, but don't expect anything remotely close to that power range with a 28R. I am not sure of AWE's reasoning behind choosing such a poor turbo, so most of the lack in boost is made up with extra timing... which puts a lot more stress on your connecting rods. Will AWE offer a 28RS? Most likely not.

We chose the 28R to match the flow of the stock exhaust manifold it is mated to.

Can you run a 28RS on a stock manifold? Yes. Is it optimized for compressor maps? No.

This is a budget bolt on kit that does not require custom tuning or sensor deletes. It is made for the "set and forget" crowd, not the intense DIYer often found on this forum. Most people we have sold the ~100 kits to were magazine readers.

There 290hp file is the old file they offered and has claimed multiple bottom ends. With the new file that comes with the kit, you will be lucky to get 250whp. With stock bottom end, I would not do anything more with the setup than how it comes. The low end tq the 28R gives will bust a rod pretty easily without a doubt. Might want to consider selling it before you install it and move up to something bigger if you're looking for more power

What are you talking about? None of our public release files popped motors. Jeff popped motors with special high torque competition files for the Eurotuner GP. Am I missing something??? No one has ever pointed this out to us on any forum, e-mail, or phone call. Where are you finding this info? The only file tweaks we have made over the years to the public kit had to do with cat tuning, not boost profiles.

[A4ringedONE8T]

What are you talking about? None of our public release files popped motors. Jeff popped motors with special high torque competition files for the Eurotuner GP. Am I missing something??? No one has ever pointed this out to us on any forum, e-mail, or phone call. Where are you finding this info? The only file tweaks we have made over the years to the public kit had to do with cat tuning, not boost profiles.

Someone I know personally which is also one of our AZ moderators, and Ive also "heard" of a few others, other than Jeff's

[Todd/AWE]

You are making an incorrect assumption that Ben's motor popped because of our kit/file. There was A LOT of other issues discovered with that car when we finally got to see it first hand.

Like I said before, we've never heard about this before. Please point me to some of these threads. Torque was purposely reduced from day one due to a known power limit on this engine.

[A4ringedONE8T]

You are making an incorrect assumption that Ben's motor popped because of our kit/file. There was A LOT of other issues discovered with that car when we finally got to see it first hand.

Like I said before, we've never heard about this before. Please point me to some of these threads. Torque was purposely reduced from day one due to a known power limit on this engine.

Everything I had heard about was off the forums as I would hope it would stay, as Ben's did. Jeff's was the only one that got drug onto the forums and led to lots of fun/banning because of the GP and the people that all witnessed it. I will clarify that all the cars that I heard "broke" were with the beta file/kit, or your "test" cars, not ones that were sold randomly to the public. So there was a file change before it was released to the public and is now sold with the lower, "safer," tune than what Jeff's, Ben's, and possibly a few others popped with.

However those setups we're the ones that made decent power, close to the other BT setups available. The new file/tune however falls far short and hits the median between a K04 and GTRS/3+

[msr1]

[QUOTE=A4ringedONE8T;2945680]Everything I had heard about was off the forums as I would hope it would stay, as Ben's did. Jeff's was the only one that got drug onto the forums and led to lots of fun/banning because of the GP and the people that all witnessed it. I will clarify that all the cars that I heard "broke" were with the beta file/kit, or your "test" cars, not ones that were sold randomly to the public. So there was a file change before it was released to the public and is now sold with the lower, "safer," tune than what Jeff's, Ben's, and possibly a few others popped with.

However those setups we're the ones that made decent power, close to the other BT setups available. The new file/tune however falls far short and hits the median between a K04 and GTRS/3+[/QUOTE]
This aint good.. But i still hope it will make at least 250whp (FWD).. And btw.. since you are FWD as well, do you recommend any exhaust?, since i still aint got one.

[A4ringedONE8T]

This aint good.. But i still hope it will make at least 250whp (FWD).. And btw.. since you are FWD as well, do you recommend any exhaust?, since i still aint got one.

Exhaust for the Frontrak A4 doesnt give you many choices. The best bolt on IMO is the Neuspeed for power levels up to a BT (300whp or so). That is what I had and ran it with all my setups (APR 1, 1+, APR K04, REVO GTRS, GT3071R bolt on setup with ATP testpipe and the Neuspeed catback, and now with the 3076R Ive upgraded and done custom stuff with alot of it) up till now and actually just modified and redid it recently with 3" turbo back to 2.5" splits. Here's how it looks now

[michpan]

250whp without an exhaust will be difficult to achieve and hard on your motor and turbo. You absolutely need an exhaust and a good intercooler.. I'm happy with my milltek exhaust setup. You should also consider getting a high-flowing catalyst as well. I'm sure you can get more than 250whp with this turbo though.. 270whp is possible..


Michael

[romell]

edited for a misunderstanding.

[Todd/AWE]

Please.... don't even go there. If you are going to blame our kit for blowing his head gasket, then this is going to get uglier.

I don't where Bobby ended up these days, but you should do him a favor and keep his name out of this thread. I've got pages of documents that I am sure he does not want me to have to reference to set you straight.

[A4ringedONE8T]

I didnt know Bobby even had the AWE kit ... and yes for the sake of the thread, lets keep it civil!

[romell]

misunderstanding.

[Todd/AWE]

All settled.

[msr1]

250whp without an exhaust will be difficult to achieve and hard on your motor and turbo. You absolutely need an exhaust and a good intercooler.. I'm happy with my milltek exhaust setup. You should also consider getting a high-flowing catalyst as well. I'm sure you can get more than 250whp with this turbo though.. 270whp is possible..


Michael

In the kit you have a testpipe for the gt28r, let me tell you this kit is probably the most complete for the car.. you just need the tools. I really like how the kit is packaged and i hope to be glad as well with the performance of the car.
The dyno numbers im talking are with an exhaust, or open test pipe if I dont get one by that date and the awe fmic.

[msr1]

Exhaust for the Frontrak A4 doesnt give you many choices. The best bolt on IMO is the Neuspeed for power levels up to a BT (300whp or so). That is what I had and ran it with all my setups (APR 1, 1+, APR K04, REVO GTRS, GT3071R bolt on setup with ATP testpipe and the Neuspeed catback, and now with the 3076R Ive upgraded and done custom stuff with alot of it) up till now and actually just modified and redid it recently with 3" turbo back to 2.5" splits. Here's how it looks now

That exhaust looks really nice, nice job there! What mufflers are those? Do you think a 3" will work on my car?

[A4ringedONE8T]

That exhaust looks really nice, nice job there! What mufflers are those? Do you think a 3" will work on my car?

Magnaflow 14816's. 3" will work on your car but is not necessary for the 28R

[mike-2ptzero]

250whp without an exhaust will be difficult to achieve and hard on your motor and turbo. You absolutely need an exhaust and a good intercooler.. I'm happy with my milltek exhaust setup. You should also consider getting a high-flowing catalyst as well. I'm sure you can get more than 250whp with this turbo though.. 270whp is possible..


Michael

Those numbers might be possible on race gas and a high flowing exhaust manifold. Most of the GT28r and T28r kits made around 225whp on pump and 250whp on race gas. Just look at the PES T28 and APR stag3 (GT28r) kit for the B5's. Those kits have been around for many years so the power that turbo can make has been made already. If someone wants more power then that they can always upgrade to a GT28rs or GT2871, will just have to do something about the larger inlet on the compressor housing.

msr1 - 20psi is the boost level tuners use for pump gas tunes. Running more boost means less adv timing and the results doesn't always mean more power. Most people running higher boost on pump gas are also running a W/M injection kit to increase the octane level.

[msr1]

Those numbers might be possible on race gas and a high flowing exhaust manifold. Most of the GT28r and T28r kits made around 225whp on pump and 250whp on race gas. Just look at the PES T28 and APR stag3 (GT28r) kit for the B5's. Those kits have been around for many years so the power that turbo can make has been made already. If someone wants more power then that they can always upgrade to a GT28rs or GT2871, will just have to do something about the larger inlet on the compressor housing.

msr1 - 20psi is the boost level tuners use for pump gas tunes. Running more boost means less adv timing and the results doesn't always mean more power. Most people running higher boost on pump gas are also running a W/M injection kit to increase the octane level.

Well that will be below what AWE states, they offer 290hp on AWD, so could be 300-310 for FWD, that will give me an estimate of a 250-260WHP with a 15%.
I saw a 07 TT w/REVO SOFTWARE, ATP INTAKE, and MILLTEK EXHAUST put 221WHP, with everything else stock.
I say it will be ridicolous if my car doesnt make wayy more HP than that.
Ive got AWE gt28r kit, AWE fmic and southbend stage 3 clutch. The day of the dyno most probably ill run with an open downpipe.
Well just waiting for the ECU to arrive and will post dyno graphs!

[A4natomical]

Well we'll all see very soon what the 28r is capable of. I'm ordering rods/pistons, valves and springs for 1.8-2.0L conversion mated with a new ER comp FMIC. I'm going to push my gt28r to the max until the funds come to do a turbo makeover.

[msr1]

Well we'll will all see very soon what the 28r is capable of. I'm ordering rods/pistons, valves and springs for 1.8-2.0L conversion mated with a new ER comp FMIC. I'm going to push my gt28r to the max until the funds come to do a turbo makeover.

Can you give me the link for those rods and pistons? that way i can do that too hahaha!(in a future) BTW how many hp does your car have right now? and waht setup are you running?
thanks,

P.S. Does anyone here knows how many cc's are the injectors that come in the
AWE kit?

[7speed]

I ran 440cc whwn I had my AWE Kit

[A4ringedONE8T]

Can you give me the link for those rods and pistons? that way i can do that too hahaha!(in a future) BTW how many hp does your car have right now? and waht setup are you running?
thanks,

P.S. Does anyone here knows how many cc's are the injectors that come in the
AWE kit?

You have quite a few choices on rods and pistons

Rods: $350-$800, Pauter and Carrillo also have an EDM hole option which runs IIRC $45/rod

IE 144x19 and reuse your stock pistons
IE 144x20
Scat 144x20
Pauter 144x20
Carrillo 144x20

Pistons: $200-700
JE
Wiseco
Supertech
AEB/AMU - OEM forged

[msr1]

You have quite a few choices on rods and pistons

Rods: $350-$800, Pauter and Carrillo also have an EDM hole option which runs IIRC $45/rod

IE 144x19 and reuse your stock pistons
IE 144x20
Scat 144x20
Pauter 144x20
Carrillo 144x20

Pistons: $200-700
JE
Wiseco
Supertech
AEB/AMU - OEM forged

whats EDM hole option wich runs IIRC? and what should i do if i want to go 2.0? do i need a crank?

[A4ringedONE8T]

EDM hole is a small hole that runs from the wrist pin to the rod journal that helps lubricate the wrist pin. And yes for a 2.0, you need an AEG 2.0 crank and set of stroker 83mm bore pistons

[B6Lovin]

whats EDM hole option wich runs IIRC? and what should i do if i want to go 2.0? do i need a crank?

see shawn's post for EDM hole, which runs IIRC was him talking about the price lol.

IIRC = if i recall

[msr1]

EDM hole is a small hole that runs from the wrist pin to the rod journal that helps lubricate the wrist pin. And yes for a 2.0, you need an AEG 2.0 crank and set of stroker 83mm bore pistons

Thanks.. im not familiar with the terms in english. hey since you are a knower of everything hahah.. do you think a atp manifold will make the car perform better?

[AudiA4_20T]

You have quite a few choices on rods and pistons

Rods: $350-$800, Pauter and Carrillo also have an EDM hole option which runs IIRC $45/rod

IE 144x19 and reuse your stock pistons
IE 144x20
Scat 144x20
Pauter 144x20
Carrillo 144x20

Pistons: $200-700
JE
Wiseco
Supertech
AEB/AMU - OEM forged

Expect to spend another $2k on top of these parts if you plan on sending it to a shop

[A4ringedONE8T]

Thanks.. im not familiar with the terms in english. hey since you are a knower of everything hahah.. do you think a atp manifold will make the car perform better?

With a 28R? Absolutely!

[A4ringedONE8T]

Expect to spend another $2k on top of these parts if you plan on sending it to a shop

Of course, that was parts alone, not any machining or assembly work

[msr1]

Of course, that was parts alone, not any machining or assembly work

Thats alot of money, maybe in a future. But here i could get the block machined and built probably for 500.
BTW do you think adding a manifold will cause any kind of inconvenience since the tune is made for the stock exhaust flowing capabiltys?

[A4ringedONE8T]

Thats alot of money, maybe in a future. But here i could get the block machined and built probably for 500.
BTW do you think adding a manifold will cause any kind of inconvenience since the tune is made for the stock exhaust flowing capabiltys?

Why do you think very few people have built motors, let alone 2.0's? For a built built 2.0 and head with a BAT setup your easily over 10k without a tune

[Jeff]

Can you run a 28RS on a stock manifold? Yes. Is it optimized for compressor maps? No.

Todd,

Could you please explain the how it is and isn't optimized to the compressor maps?

The key difference between the 2560R (28R) and 2860R (28RS) is in the turbine. The two compressors are pretty similar, with a SLIGHT difference in trim (60 trim vs 62 trim)...with the 28RS having a little bigger inducer.

I have pushed the 28R to it's limits, and at the end of the day...it wasn't compressor that I ran out of, but rather I ran out of turbine (because it is a small 25 series wheel).

I want to be honest with you, with the 28R turbo on my car, I never really liked the car (has nothing to do with AWE's workmanship, which is excellent)...but rather, the car felt like a simple big K04 upgrade. But after the 28RS, the car never ran better. Unfortunately, with very aggressive timing along with our plastic rods on the AMB, the 28RS may be a bit too much for what the motor can handle.

I really don't know what you're trying to get at with your statement. I understand you want to sell kits that have the OEM driveability as well as reliability, so detuning the kit to meet these standards is obviously in AWE's company values. However, my question is: why detune a more inefficient turbo, when you can more effectively tune a MORE efficient turbo? All this timing is added to the 28R to give it it's low-mid range ramp up, but all that has done from my experience is stress the rods even more...which is why Ben snapped his rod NOT at full boost/torque, but rather at 3000-4000 in a high gear. You can accomplish the same by detuning a 28RS while laying off the timing curve in that range. I've broken rods personally, and have dealt with enough fellow AWE 28R kit owners to know what is causing the the issue. NONE of these guys are EVER breaking rods at high RPM's. I even had to help a local member tow his car and rip his motor apart to assess his damage, and the findings are almost identical.

So you are saying that the 28R is a better turbo? Or because the 28R turbo is a more economical turbo in cost (almost a $200 difference in cost between the two). As a business owner having to constantly budget costs to maximize margins, I can understand opting with more cost-effective solution...but please don't be calling me out telling me about the differences in compressor maps. I've ran your 28R-map-optimized file on a 28RS, 2871R, and even on a 3071R... and it works VERY well (with some tweeks of course). I can tell customers that a K03 is better than a K04 as well because the the compressor map mates better to stock software.

I have had nothing but respect for you guys, and think I've done my fair share for you guys. But I am also entitled to my own opinions, findings, and views. So chill out.

Cordially,

Jeff Lee

[Todd/AWE]

Jeff,

You are way over thinking my statement.

We re-use the stock exhaust manifold.

The ultimate flow rate of the OEM manifold was shown to be better matched to the 28R sizing, which is why we used it. The goal of this kit was to make an economical bolt on solution that produced more power than a K04, yet retained all the OEM oil and coolant systems.

Can you spin a 28RS or larger with the OEM exhaust manifold? Yes. Do we feel that it a mismatch? Yes.

That is all I was saying.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

You are way over thinking my statement.

We re-use the stock exhaust manifold.

The ultimate flow rate of the OEM manifold was shown to be better matched to the 28R sizing, which is why we used it. The goal of this kit was to make an economical bolt on solution that produced more power than a K04, yet retained all the OEM oil and coolant systems.

Can you spin a 28RS or larger with the OEM exhaust manifold? Yes. Do we feel that it a mismatch? Yes.

That is all I was saying.

Thank you for clearing that up. It's still good to see that there is still a bit of professionalism left on forums these days and have healthy debates and threads without it going south. Not even McCain and Obama can do that. LOL

How is business these days? Hope all is well. See you at SEMA if you'll be there.

-Jeff

[A4TUNE]

I had awe's 28r kit on my car a while back. car had about 100k on it when i sold it and the thing was running solid as hell. this is a great kit if you're looking for a little more power than a k04 but don't want to constantly tweak your car with 28rs and higher. the turbo has a nice torque spike which will put you in the back of your seat. i'm interested to see how your car performs with the built motor a4anatomical..

[A4natomical]

I had awe's 28r kit on my car a while back. car had about 100k on it when i sold it and the thing was running solid as hell. this is a great kit if you're looking for a little more power than a k04 but don't want to constantly tweak your car with 28rs and higher. the turbo has a nice torque spike which will put you in the back of your seat. i'm interested to see how your car performs with the built motor a4anatomical..

yea im interested too.