Water/Meth Q's

[Trev]

Ok, so here's the plan.

I'm planning on getting chipped from APR with four different programs (Stock, 1, 1+, and 1+ on 100 Oct). My other mods will be: vag-com, podi boost gauge, forge 007, test pipe, and SP w/m stage 2. Everything else stock.

Iv been reading that some people use a dual nozzle setup, one after the throttle body via a spacer plate and one just after the IC. I'v also read about people corroding the throttle body because of the injection before the TB. Is this true and i should just stick with one nozzle after the TB?

Basically what i would like to know is, what would be the ideal setup and placement of the nozzles/nozzle? I'm trying to achieve maximum cooling as i will be using the stock side mount.

TIA. Suggestions are welcome.

This is the site where i found the spacer: http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...ort=20a&page=2

[A4ringedONE8T]

Best results come from one nozzle directly after the IC core and one nozzle at (before or after your choice) the throttle body. The first nozzle drops the IAT charge and the second at the TB keeps the intake charge "wet" to provide the best detonation control


And FYI stage 1 and 1+ are different flashes from APR, not switchable with the cruise control

[jojoampt]

i say skip the stock program.. you will never use it.

[Trev]

And FYI stage 1 and 1+ are different flashes from APR, not switchable with the cruise control

i say skip the stock program.. you will never use it.

My bad, thanks for the clarification. Im planning of taking advantage of their sale, 4 programs for the price of one

For better cooling would it be best to use a higher meth ratio? I'm a little worried about corroding the TB with having a nozzle before the throttle plate. Should i be concerned, or is this just an over exaggeration?

[jojoampt]

^^ nevermind, mine as well get it if its for free

[A4ringedONE8T]

Ive had meth in my car for 40k miles with a large single nozzle right before the throttle plate and just recently had it shit out and had to replace it. It will not corrode it, it will just F it up over time internally.

Another FYI, the APR 100 octane program will not run correctly with meth only, you will get detonation when its over 70-75 degrees even with a FMIC.

[A4ringedONE8T]

And meth injection IS NOT a replacement for a FMIC

[Trev]

Thanks for the info. The 100 Oct file is more for later when i the $$ for a fmic.

The plan was to see if i could run the 1+ with the smic and meth. Thats why im getting the full load on the ecu.

[Dave@EuroTechnik]

Ive had meth in my car for 40k miles with a large single nozzle right before the throttle plate and just recently had it shit out and had to replace it. It will not corrode it, it will just F it up over time internally.

Another FYI, the APR 100 octane program will not run correctly with meth only, you will get detonation when its over 70-75 degrees even with a FMIC.

we have many datalogged B5/B6 A4's running 100oct fine with meth on 93 fuel stock SMIC. Just need to inject the proper amount at the right time with only 3-4 CF's on all cylinders. Some actually run the 104 file with a dual larger nozzle upgrade. We have done this on a few S4's also.

[A4ringedONE8T]

we have many datalogged B5/B6 A4's running 100oct fine with meth on 93 fuel stock SMIC. Just need to inject the proper amount at the right time with only 3-4 CF's on all cylinders. Some actually run the 104 file with a dual larger nozzle upgrade. We have done this on a few S4's also.

Perhaps they have changed the files and reduced timing then. I was the first B6 to have meth, I setup the first GB for the Snow kits 3+ years ago. I was also the first to have the B6 APR K04 file, had in 2 months before it was released for testing. I know plenty about what can and cant be done with meth and different nozzles on APR stage 1, 1+, K04, REVO w/ a GTRS, REVO w/ 3071R and now a 3076R ... Ive had them all ....

[Trev]

^-----

lol, you will be hearing lots from me in the next while.
What did you use for your reservoir? I was thinking of using my washer fluid reservoir for the w/m and using a smaller bottle for the window washer fluid. I like the fact that its large and has a factory level sensor. Will the reservoir and components handle the 50/50 w/m?

[A4ringedONE8T]

^-----

lol, you will be hearing lots from me in the next while.
What did you use for your reservoir? I was thinking of using my washer fluid reservoir for the w/m and using a smaller bottle for the window washer fluid. I like the fact that its large and has a factory level sensor. Will the reservoir and components handle the 50/50 w/m?

Ive always used the windshield washer bottle. There isnt any place for a decent sized reservoir in the engine bay and I never was a fan of putting it in the back. Ive ran every kind of windshield washer fluid seeing what works best, water/HEET mix, water/Sunoco M1 mix, and straight Sunoco M1 (methanol) in the washer bottle. Methanol will not harm the car or paint if you do spray it on the windshield, obviously just a waste for the cost of it. I hardly ever use my windshield washers so its never been a big deal to me using it for the meth source and the windshield washers. That of course is up to you. Remember the washer bottle also has a dash warning alarm on it so when it gets low, you'll know to stay off the gas until you refill it. If you did want to use two seperate reservoirs, I would still use the washer bottle for the meth because of the dash indicator

And no problem, just let me know what you need If you need to get ahold of me I would prefer you email me, [email protected] Its easier for me to respond in length and I usually respond to them quicker then PM's

[dfaudi]

Ive had water/meth too for a while. and twice the throttle bodies pooped on me. First the nozzle was right before the butterfly plate on the tb housing. Then i installed it a little more upstream (~ 1.5 ft) before the tb and again it shit on me. So ive had it disconnected for a while. I was using window washer fluid the first time, then started mixing Heet/distilled water...so either way the tb was affected.

Im planning to run 2 nozzles after the tb on the intake manifold. So im doing a little research on the correcte size injectors and will be getting the solenoid so theres no water draw from vacuum.

[dfaudi]

A4rigntedone8t,
What do you recommend for a gtrs setup? Im either going to do 2 nozzles or get the devilsown 4 nozzle kit and run the spray on each runner (w/solenoid).

[A4ringedONE8T]

A4rigntedone8t,
What do you recommend for a gtrs setup? Im either going to do 2 nozzles or get the devilsown 4 nozzle kit and run the spray on each runner (w/solenoid).

If you're tuning the car up for meth I would go with the simplest system which will allow the least chances of failure. If you want to get it after the throttle plate, I would do a single nozzle using the TB plate Snow sells. 375cc should be perfect for the GTRS

[A4ringedONE8T]

And FYI, you should be spraying 20-25% of your total fueling with a meth setup for best results.

For example, if you're running 430/440cc injectors

440 x 4 = 1760 x .20 = 352cc, 1760 x .25 = 440cc, so somewhere between 352 and 440cc nozzle

[dfaudi]

Ok, good info. How about if i wanted to run 4 individual injectors? Does the 20-25% still apply?
Im only wondering about flow and atomization if running 4 injectors and how that will be changed as opposed to running 1 or 2.
Im thinking 4 individual would be better, since it would be consistent flow to each cylinder...and running only 2, it would be hard to place the nozzles to distribut evenly to each cylinder.

Heres a good article i found,
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

[Molotov]

yeah but as he was saying, running one is way easier than 4. You have one failed nozzle then you're kinda screwed.

[HTA A4]

I'm going W/M soon! Good thread

[A4ringedONE8T]

Ok, good info. How about if i wanted to run 4 individual injectors? Does the 20-25% still apply?
Im only wondering about flow and atomization if running 4 injectors and how that will be changed as opposed to running 1 or 2.
Im thinking 4 individual would be better, since it would be consistent flow to each cylinder...and running only 2, it would be hard to place the nozzles to distribut evenly to each cylinder.

Heres a good article i found,
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

If you run 4 nozzles, you need them equally sized to total the 20-25% amount. Also keep in mind, each cylinder runs differently, so even though you have equal distribution, each cylinder is still doing something different. #3 always runs leaner and hotter than the others for example. I honestly would not run a direct port 4 nozzle setup. Not only does it allow for the most possible failure points but it also serves mainly as detonation control and does not have much time to drop IAT's being that close to the combustion chamber. The best results from meth will come from a two nozzle setup, one directly after the intercooler core and one at the throttle body (before or after your choice). With this setup the nozzle near the IC hits the intake charge early allowing the most time for IAT's to drop before the throttle body. The second nozzle then hits the already cooled intake charge and makes it "wet" entering the combustion chamber and allowing the most detonation control.

[Trev]

So for a APR 1+ setup with 380cc injectors that would equate to a 304cc w/m injection. If i were to use a dual nozzle setup i would just use two 175cc injectors or a 175cc at the throttle and a 100cc after the IC?

If you run 4 nozzles, you need them equally sized to total the 20-25% amount. Also keep in mind, each cylinder runs differently, so even though you have equal distribution, each cylinder is still doing something different. #3 always runs leaner and hotter than the others for example. I honestly would not run a direct port 4 nozzle setup. Not only does it allow for the most possible failure points but it also serves mainly as detonation control and does not have much time to drop IAT's being that close to the combustion chamber. The best results from meth will come from a two nozzle setup, one directly after the intercooler core and one at the throttle body (before or after your choice). With this setup the nozzle near the IC hits the intake charge early allowing the most time for IAT's to drop before the throttle body. The second nozzle then hits the already cooled intake charge and makes it "wet" entering the combustion chamber and allowing the most detonation control.

[A4ringedONE8T]

So for a APR 1+ setup with 380cc injectors that would equate to a 304cc w/m injection. If i were to use a dual nozzle setup i would just use two 175cc injectors or a 175cc at the throttle and a 100cc after the IC?

386 x 4 = 1544, 1544 x .20 = 308, 1544 x .25 = 386

So somewhere between 308-386cc

Snow makes 75, 175, 225, 375, & 675cc nozzles

I can tell you right now a 375cc nozzle is too much for a K03/K04. I had that setup for a while and optimized the hell out of it on the dyno. Use either a single 275cc nozzle or if doing a dual nozzle setup, 175 after the IC core and a 75 at the TB would work best IMO

[Ill 3.0]

Snow is 225, rather than 275. But yeah, we know what you meant

Speaking of which, since Snow doesn't show on their website are the nozzles 1/8 NPT? Devil's own has them in 189 and 252 (I assume testing same PSI since the pump is the same I belive), and could allow more fine tuning.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Snow is 225, rather than 275. But yeah, we know what you meant

Speaking of which, since Snow doesn't show on their website are the nozzles 1/8 NPT? Devil's own has them in 189 and 252 (I assume testing same PSI since the pump is the same I belive), and could allow more fine tuning.

1/8-27 yup and thanks for catching the nozzle size

[dfaudi]

Ill have to disagree with the nozzle placement your recommending. After the intercooler core is way too upstream and by the time the water/meth reaches the engine it will be condensed and lose its atomization...also this will mess with the tb and cause it to sieze (happened to me twice after 6 months each)

Regular Fuel injectors are placed just before the intake also to maintain the atomization of the fuel...and now theres direct injection...this further proves this principal.

Direct port is the way to go. Best atomization most consistent.
Not as easy...but im looking to do this right this time, and not just easy way out. Nozzles are pretty basic devices and as long as theres some type of prefilter (before the pump or before the nozzle split off) not much will get in there.

Ill be ordering my setup within the week and will def. take some A/F logs before and after.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Ill have to disagree with the nozzle placement your recommending. After the intercooler core is way too upstream and by the time the water/meth reaches the engine it will be condensed and lose its atomization...also this will mess with the tb and cause it to sieze (happened to me twice after 6 months each)

Regular Fuel injectors are placed just before the intake also to maintain the atomization of the fuel...and now theres direct injection...this further proves this principal.

Direct port is the way to go. Best atomization most consistent.
Not as easy...but im looking to do this right this time, and not just easy way out. Nozzles are pretty basic devices and as long as theres some type of prefilter (before the pump or before the nozzle split off) not much will get in there.

Ill be ordering my setup within the week and will def. take some A/F logs before and after.

Do what you would like, it is your car. What I recommend is without a doubt the recommend placement for a two nozzle setup for the best results of both reduced IAT's and detonation control. Like I said early though, what do I know ... And Ive had a single nozzle right before the TB for going on 3+ years and 40k miles and just now had the throttle body go out

[dfaudi]

Do what you would like, it is your car. What I recommend is without a doubt the recommend placement for a two nozzle setup for the best results of both reduced IAT's and detonation control. Like I said early though, what do I know ... And Ive had a single nozzle right before the TB for going on 3+ years and 40k miles and just now had the throttle body go out

Living in MI, theres a lot more hot/cold environmental changes to accelerate wear and tear.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Living in MI, theres a lot more hot/cold environmental changes to accelerate wear and tear.

Ok ... and FYI, A/F will not change because you added w/m. The software still has a target a/f of 12.5 and it will keep it no matter what you change in the intake charge. Also the nozzles are not the failure points, its between the pump and the nozzle and all the hosing connections and splits. If you're using a Snow kit, there quick disconnect fittings WILL fail and come apart. Hopefully its not while you're in boost

[Dave@EuroTechnik]

Ok ... and FYI, A/F will not change because you added w/m. The software still has a target a/f of 12.5 and it will keep it no matter what you change in the intake charge. Also the nozzles are not the failure points, its between the pump and the nozzle and all the hosing connections and splits. If you're using a Snow kit, there quick disconnect fittings WILL fail and come apart. Hopefully its not while you're in boost

fyi snow has upgraded their plastic quick disconnect fittings to all stainless fittings because of this. probably why the price has gone up in the past few months. Also their new controllers use MAF or Boost control for those looking at a meth kit, good option if someone is using K03/K04 and wants to go BT later down the road.

[dfaudi]

Ok ... and FYI, A/F will not change because you added w/m. The software still has a target a/f of 12.5 and it will keep it no matter what you change in the intake charge. Also the nozzles are not the failure points, its between the pump and the nozzle and all the hosing connections and splits. If you're using a Snow kit, there quick disconnect fittings WILL fail and come apart. Hopefully its not while you're in boost

I figured that the ecu would try to regulate things at the target AF of ~12.5. What was your method of increasing power?

I have an EGT gauge, Lemmi, and MBC.
Im thinking do a few pulls without water/meth and figure out my max EGT. Then turn on water/meth and add boost (lean it out) untill i meet the same EGT temp. Also, use Lemmi to advance the timing a bit.

Ive never messed with Lemmis Fuel adjustments. Would i be able to use that?

[dfaudi]

fyi snow has upgraded their plastic quick disconnect fittings to all stainless fittings because of this. probably why the price has gone up in the past few months. Also their new controllers use MAF or Boost control for those looking at a meth kit, good option if someone is using K03/K04 and wants to go BT later down the road.

I have a devils own kit. And devils own (alcohol-injection.com) has a 4 splitter/4 nozzle setup thats priced pretty reasonably. $60.

Anyone know where i can get these parts direct? I might just use home depot brass fittings.

[A4ringedONE8T]

I figured that the ecu would try to regulate things at the target AF of ~12.5. What was your method of increasing power?

I have an EGT gauge, Lemmi, and MBC.
Im thinking do a few pulls without water/meth and figure out my max EGT. Then turn on water/meth and add boost (lean it out) untill i meet the same EGT temp. Also, use Lemmi to advance the timing a bit.

Ive never messed with Lemmis Fuel adjustments. Would i be able to use that?

The car will not lean out and continue to run at 100%. The ECU has a target a/f of 12.5 and it will keep it no matter what. If it can not because of fueling or any other reason, it will dump fuel, pull timing, pull boost and put it in limp mode if your still running the N75 to keep it safe. Two ways to benefit from meth are running a bit more boost, however I wouldnt go above 24-25psi with a GTRS. Above that its blowing more hot air then its worth. The second way is adding timing either with the SPS or with Lemmiwinks. You want to find a happy median of the two. You should not need to use lemmi, the SPS should get timing high enough to get CF's in the 4-5 range

With my GTRS setup, I used to run 25psi and T7 all summer even on the 95-100 degree days in FL. That was with 2-3's for CF's. T8 yielded CF's of 7-8's in the heat which was beyond how I wanted the car to run. Under 80 degrees, T8 is/was fine to run

[A4ringedONE8T]

I have a devils own kit. And devils own (alcohol-injection.com) has a 4 splitter/4 nozzle setup thats priced pretty reasonably. $60.

Anyone know where i can get these parts direct? I might just use home depot brass fittings.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/instant-fittings-5/

Your talking about those pieces of sh*t? Those are the same as the old Snow fittings which will come apart. Much better off to use brass compression fittings from a hardware store. I would also recommend using clear refrigertator line instead of the red or black stuff thats included with the meth kits. It will harden and crack over time, the clear stuff is a bit softer, does not age, and grabs better on brass compression fittings

[Ill 3.0]

I have a devils own kit. And devils own (alcohol-injection.com) has a 4 splitter/4 nozzle setup thats priced pretty reasonably. $60.

I think you need to upgrade the pump if you'll be using more than 2 nozzles. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the extra resistance is too much for the 150 psi pump.

[dfaudi]

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/instant-fittings-5/

Your talking about those pieces of sh*t? Those are the same as the old Snow fittings which will come apart. Much better off to use brass compression fittings from a hardware store. I would also recommend using clear refrigertator line instead of the red or black stuff thats included with the meth kits. It will harden and crack over time, the clear stuff is a bit softer, does not age, and grabs better on brass compression fittings

Thanks. Will do. That frees up some $ for the snowperformance flow gauge.

[dfaudi]

I think you need to upgrade the pump if you'll be using more than 2 nozzles. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the extra resistance is too much for the 150 psi pump.

I think ill be ok as long as the nozzles are smaller and equal to one big one.

its the exact same thing as electronics in an electric circuit...flow & pressure is the same as current & voltage.

So if each nozzle is in parrallel then each nozzle will get the same pressure (voltage) but flow will be split (just like how current will be split in an electrical circuit).

[dfaudi]

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/instant-fittings-5/

Your talking about those pieces of sh*t? Those are the same as the old Snow fittings which will come apart. Much better off to use brass compression fittings from a hardware store. I would also recommend using clear refrigertator line instead of the red or black stuff thats included with the meth kits. It will harden and crack over time, the clear stuff is a bit softer, does not age, and grabs better on brass compression fittings

What about the nozzles? Any other sources for those? (not the ones that need a nut on the inside...what a pita)

[UCFQuattroguy]

we have many datalogged B5/B6 A4's running 100oct fine with meth on 93 fuel stock SMIC. Just need to inject the proper amount at the right time with only 3-4 CF's on all cylinders. Some actually run the 104 file with a dual larger nozzle upgrade. We have done this on a few S4's also.

I drive one of the cars Dave has logged running 93oct fuel on the factory SMIC. FWIW the 100oct file actually runs happier (from what I've seen of my logs), than running straight 100octane fuel on a 90+degree Florida day.

[A4ringedONE8T]

FWIW the 100oct file actually runs happier (from what I've seen of my logs), than running straight 100octane fuel on a 90+degree Florida day.

Meth is not a replacement for race gas, period. Setting for setting the car will still make more power on race gas than on meth so your "happier" comment is complete BS, nice try though

[HTA A4]

Meth is not a replacement for race gas, period. Setting for setting the car will still make more power on race gas than on meth so your "happier" comment is complete BS, nice try though

So running meth with race gas and a FMIC WOULD be a benefit in improving power, right?