Warranty help (proving that intake and DV should not damage transmission)

[Glassnpowder98]

As some of you might have been following my "third gear grinding" thread, I have run into problems with my third gear sychro being shot. Upon bringing the car to the dealership, I was told that I voided my warranty due to having a Carbonio intake and a Forge diverter valve.

Long story short (You can read all about it in the other thread), I am meeting with the area manager for service advisors tomorrow to make my case and show him my car. I want to show up as prepared as possible and that is where hopefully you guys can help me out a little bit.

Currently all I have is a claim that a Carbonio intake would only produce 5hp max and that should not put excessive stress on my transmission causing it to fail. Does anyone know where I can find dyno results that can varify if there is even a gain with a Carbonio?
I am also planning to bring up the Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 which states that the company has to prove that an aftermarket piece is the cause of their product to fail.

Any other suggestions would be brilliant! Thanks.

[RedS-line]

either try a different dealership or have the carbonio and dv removed. and obviously flash to stock.

[b6onboost]

There isn't even a gain with carbonio, its just sounds and looks.

Neither of those mods pose a threat for a valid warrantly void. Infact you could argue they improve the OEM setup. If you are chipped flash it to stock and deny the software was modded, that is enough added power to warrant drivetrain failure should they be able to specifically prove it.

-The carbonio intake uses a better filter to help keep contaminates out of the engine.
-The Forge DV is more efficient and reliable than the OEM one which is prone to fail.

Bring a copy of the Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975. Be prepared to argue your side.

Ask them why only the 3rd gear syncro is damaged. If the intake and dv did indeed cause that much drivetrain stress, wouldn't more be damaged? Sounds to me like a defective 3rd gear syncro.

[Glassnpowder98]

Thanks for the input and assistance. The car is not chipped, so I don't have to worry about that (also makes their claims even more ridiculous).

After some research and looking at old service records and receipts for when I had the mods installed, I've established that the Carbonio and diverter valve were installed on March 7th 2008 with 22,511 miles. On April 21st 2008 I got my 25k service with 24,411 miles. The first time I experienced the grinding was on May 3rd and scheduled an appointment for May 5th. The problem went away so I cancelled my appointment... Probably a bad move. Anyways, the intake and DV were only installed for about 2 months and 2k miles before I started experiencing problems. I'm not sure if this will help or hurt my case since the problem started shortly after installing the mods...

I plan to explain my case as professionally and calmly as possible letting them know that I am an Audi loyalist, member of ACNA, and an active member in the online community. I perform scheduled maintenance by the book (early sometimes) and do my best to make sure the car is running right. If that fails and I don't get the time of day again, I found what I need from the Magnusson-Moss Act:

The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage (not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance).

I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow...

[Glassnpowder98]

either try a different dealership or have the carbonio and dv removed. and obviously flash to stock.

I've already taken it to Audi corporate, so I'm pretty sure my car will be in their system for any future warranty claims regardless of dealership...

[Quattro]

sorry to hear that. I have a question for ya, why do you have a forge dv if you are not chipped? Just curious, not trying to make it worse.

There is no way, no how that your 3rd gear has anything to do with a forge dv or the intake. As others have said it actually helps!

You dont have a short shifter or exhaust do you?

[stephengraham]

You might want to consider taking it up to the dealer at Tysons. I've heard nothing but bad from Richmond, assuming that's where you took it.

[Bart-Man]

switch dealers.
Usually they are independent.

[Glassnpowder98]

sorry to hear that. I have a question for ya, why do you have a forge dv if you are not chipped? Just curious, not trying to make it worse.

There is no way, no how that your 3rd gear has anything to do with a forge dv or the intake. As others have said it actually helps!

You dont have a short shifter or exhaust do you?

At the end of last year, I called to make an appointment at my service center and during the phone call I asked them when my warranty was going to expire since I bought the car used and didn't know. I was told that it was going to expire in February 2008. So, in March 2008 I started modding my car. I decided to get the intake and DV before getting chipped. Before I could save more money and get chipped, I had to take the car back to the dealership for my 25k service. I was expecting to pay for the 25k service since I thought my warranty and free service plan had expired. However, when I got the bill, they didn't charge me anything so I asked them when my warranty and free service were going to expire again. This time they told me it expires in February 2009. So at that point I stopped doing mods to my engine thinking I could save my warranty and I switched to visual mods like wheels, coilovers and the like.

[a4dc89]

That is such BS go to a different dealer, BTW what dealer is this so we all know.

[davis449]

This seriously sounds like an independent dealer that doesn't want to pay for warranty repairs. There's a lot of labor that goes into replacing that synchro and they don't want to do it cause it's not worth their time cost (cause the financial cost comes in a reimbursement from Audi). It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that an intake, especially one that doesn't increase shit, and a DV on a turbo could remotely cause a tranny to fuck up much less void an entire warranty. They way i understand it, the most they can do is void the warranty on the particular part the aftermarket installed part affects. In this case, neither are anywhere near the trans. The burden of proof here is actually on them to prove to the Area guy that those mods could cause a 3rd gear synchro to go shit on you.

[Glassnpowder98]

I'm going to leave the dealership name out of this until I get a confirmed answer. I just called the dealership to see if the area manager is there so I can talk to him, but the service manager did not answer. Hopefully I'll be able to get an answer shortly.

[LampyB]

Anyways, the intake and DV were only installed for about 2 months and 2k miles before I started experiencing problems.

i wouldn't mention this, it pinpoints the mods to the problem in a solid time-frame.

tell them the intake doesn't do anything for power, it's a sound only mod that barely even lets the car breathe better. the DV in no way shape or form can add ANY power to the car, all it's doing right now is the exact same thing as the stock DV. if you were to add power to the car the DV would perform better than stock, but right now it's the exact same thing as stock. they need to prove to you that these parts caused your problem, not the other way around.

[Bllzll]

i seriously wouldnt say ANYTHING at this meeting... this isnt for you to prove your case.. this is for them to prove THEIR case!!

you dont need to defend yourself... just simply say "with all due respect.. according to this act that i have here it simply states that in order for you to void my warranty you need to prove that these aftermarket parts were the cause... if you cannot do that then i expect my car to be fixed"

dont explain a thing.. its their job to prove what caused the problems.. its not your job to prove they didnt

[Glassnpowder98]

So I just got back from HBL in Tysons, and sadly the news is not too good. I started by letting them know that up to this point I've been very happy with my car and the service I've received from the dealership. I then explained exactly what the car was doing and provided the dates in which I experienced the grinding and how it goes away after a few days. I then cleared up the situation about how AoA told that I have an aftermarket turbo on the car... So that is when we started talking about the mods that are on the car. I stated how I have been told that the added power from mods put more stress on the transmission causing it to fail and how that claim is baseless because the intake does not provide more power and that it only produces a different sound and filters air better for the motor. I also told him the recirculation valve was put on because of the common knowledge that the stock valve is known to tear around the rubber seal. In the middle of me saying that, he said "you have the piston style?" I was kind of surprised he knew about that...

Anyways, after stating my case he then told me that the warranty states that any modifications done to the car will void the warranty. He went on to say, for example if you put an aftermarket suspension in your car and you develop a rattle, we would not be able to fix it. Also, if you put a new sound system in your car and you blow all of your speakers and wiring, we would not be able to fix it. So, I brought up the Magnusson-Moss Act in which companies have to prove that an aftermarket product caused the damage. He quickly replied that the warranty states ANY modification will void the warranty... I also showed him the actual section of the act where it states that and he said, "well I'm not a lawyer and all lawyers could probably interpret that differently." So we pretty much stalemated with that.

I then brought out copies of 7 different posts in which I found on here and Audiworld in which people had the same exact problem as me and said that it seems to be a pretty common problem that the 3rd gear synchro is known to fail. He then said, "well I've been around long enough that you see enough cars and anything is possible."

So with the conversation not really going anywhere and him only bringing up the warranty, I told him that I am really not satisfied with the ruling and do not thing that a car with 29k miles (25k when the problem first started) should be having these kind of transmission problems. I then asked him if there was someone above him that I could present this to. He stated that my only other option was to write to Audi Corporate so they have it documented. He then added that the case would probably just be brought back to himself making it pretty much pointless.

The only other options that I have now are to contact a lawyer and see if their warranty conflicts with the Magnusson-Moss act or take my mods off and try another dealership. Although, I'm sure that by now my car has been flagged and I won't be able to get any warranty work done... [/RANT]

[Quattro]

WOW I am very sorry to hear about what happened. It is truly bullshit, no way an intake and dv would have caused that problem. NO WAYYYYYYYYYY

I would say a lawyer would prob be your next step..but that is costly and time consuming. I would write to AOA and see what they say, there is someone always higher than him. Who did you talk to in the first place service manager or a rep from AOA?

Try taking it to a different dealer quickly and see what happens, there is no mod friendly dealer around your area????

-randy

[fromGMCtoAUDI]

Wow man that really sucks! I've heard the service at HBL Tysons was bad that's why I go to Audi of Alexandria in old town.

The way I understand it the warranty voids on a particular component (suspension, transmission,etc) if you make any modifications to that component which is not your case. In this case they're trying to link the transmission failure, which you haven't modified at all, with the intake and DV.

I hope it all works out for you man good luck.

[Quattro]

very very true, when you mod something it voids that part...and they are trying to link the intake and dv caused the 3rd problem!

[Glassnpowder98]

I used to think HBL was mod friendly as they never said anything in the past about my car having mods (I've brought it in about 3 or 4 times with mods). However, I never had to warranty anything besides my driver seat side bolster cracking.

I was in the service managers office with the service manager and regional manager. When I called yesterday, the service manager had suggested that I bring the car and talk to the regional manager because he was going to be there for a meeting. During the call, the service manager told me that the regional manager was the one who had originally made the final call to void my warranty. Ha it sucked, I had to wait around for about an hour for them to get out of the meeting. Luckily my work is letting me make up the hours...

So, I think I might just call a lawyer and ask for their opinion since I have pretty much done all of the research already. I just don't want to end up having to pay for a lawyer as well as a new synchro. Ha, I wish there was a way to see if my car has been flagged so I could find out if it would be worth it to just go to another dealership. I mean the worst they could do is deny it again...

[toothysaw2]

it has always been my understanding that engine mods are allowed forward of the throttle body (essentially just intake) and rear from the cat (cat back exhaust) since these don't change the "balance of the engine". which kind of makes sense since you couldn't really affect airflow that much because you'd still be limited at the manifold.

in any event... the dealer sounds like an ass, and that's pretty lame that they won't fix your transmission.

[4RingRook]

Damn dude, I'm sorry to hear about this!

This is absolutely ridiculous! There is no way that THOSE mods are tied to your tranny dying. It sounds like this dealership is on a power trip, big time.

[bcramer]

Damn dude, I'm sorry to hear about this!

This is absolutely ridiculous! There is no way that THOSE mods are tied to your tranny dying. It sounds like this dealership is on a power trip, big time.

I'm not so sure about the power trip as they are trying to cut costs at the loss of the customer. It sucks either way. However, if the warranty contract clearly states that any engine modification voids the power train/engine then they do have every right to deny his claim. I'm not saying they should!

[cjonesgo]

i don't know the b7 platform, but find out what other cars use the same transmission. same as in 3.2?

what i am getting at, is that if another more powerful car uses the same tranny, then their argument is moot as the tranny is designed to handle the increased stresses.

good luck!

[bcramer]

i don't know the b7 platform, but find out what other cars use the same transmission. same as in 3.2?

what i am getting at, is that if another more powerful car uses the same tranny, then their argument is moot as the tranny is designed to handle the increased stresses.

good luck!

Might be true, might not be. It all depends on what is stated in the warranty contract. As I posted above, if it explicitly states that any mods to the engine voids the power train/engine warranty then it doesn't matter what he says or does. They have the legal right to deny his claim.

From a customer service perspective they should not, but they can.

[cgmiller63]

Might be true, might not be. It all depends on what is stated in the warranty contract. As I posted above, if it explicitly states that any mods to the engine voids the power train/engine warranty then it doesn't matter what he says or does. They have the legal right to deny his claim.

From a customer service perspective they should not, but they can.

I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure the Audi warranty contract trumps Federal Statute. I'd contact the FTC to see what recourse you have.

Check out this link: http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

One more thing, I'd start communicating in writing so you can document everything they are telling you. You may need this in case you have to go to arbitration or court. I'd keep going up the chain of command until I get the issue resolved.

[UGwagen]

intake and DV does affect the tranny.

The Driver itself does-- And people will make the connection, power mods = more aggressive driving (aka abuse, which is not covered under the warranty)

you'll have to prove that the synchro issue is a known issue on the B8 manual trannies.

[Bllzll]

damn this is really sad to hear...

this almost reminds me of a thread from e90post because of the possible lawyers.. it was the biggest internet thread i have ever seen ans basically this buy bought an m3 on ebay and at the last second the dealer didnt wanan sell it because he got too good a deal and they tried saying they made a mistake... weeks and weeks later and after lawyers and fights and shit he finally got his car


i dono how that relates.. haah but fight this and get your car fixed!!

[eMacPaul]

Yeah, definitely sounds like lawyer time. Get a lawyer to draft a letter to AoA.

[volcomic]

There is ALWAYS someone higher to talk to. The fact is most people are not going to even bother if the "boss" they're talking to is persistent in maintaining that he has the final say in the situation... Contact AOA before you pay for a lawyer. Unfortunately I think Audi can legally make whatever "rules" they want about their own warranty programs which overshadow the state regulations (as someone said earlier). Most dealers are just not a bunch of assholes like the guys you're dealing with and will just take care of it. Good luck!

[a4dc89]

SHIT! Thats my service center! I guess I should be going somewhere else then, i quit rockville audi cause they didnt have a free loaner.

[RedS-line]

the advice i gave in the first post still stands strong. it does NOT matter whether the dv and intake do a thing. they are only used as a scapegoat to let audi get out of warranty work and to give you the big fat bill. start looking for other "mod friendly" dealers and start making friends with the employees. let this story be a heads up for people on here.....

[Glassnpowder98]

SHIT! Thats my service center! I guess I should be going somewhere else then, i quit rockville audi cause they didnt have a free loaner.

Haha what?? You get a free loaner at HBL? I always have to pay about $25-$30 a day to drive a Chevy HHR!!

I plan on taking the advice that some of you gave and I will be writing a letter tonight when I get off work. I figured if I write to the warranty division as well as the marketing division stating my claim and how they will be losing a life long customer who is very active in ACNA and online forums, it might shake things up a bit. Hopefully at least the marketing department will care about losing the opportunity cost of selling a new car every 5 years as well as care about the attention and views this situation has received on here (over 600 views). It could be a long night of writing, because I plan to make it pretty juicy...

I will definitely be fighting this until the bitter end because in my view, their warranty directly violates the Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 which was developed to protect consumers. I'm not a lawyer, but I will have the assistance of one if I do not receive a response to my letter.

[stephengraham]

It seems like a pretty blanket policy to claim the warranty is void if you make ANY modification. I don't see how it could hold water in court unless it outlines modifications to a specific system. Someone could argue until they're blue in the face over what constitutes a modification. Could they deny you coverage if your windows were tinted or if you put non-dealer air in your tires? There must be a line of demarcation somewhere that says what is and isn't allowable.

The response regarding "forward of the throttle body" is probably the direction I would go in pursuing the dealer. Find out if they specifically do not allow modifications to the area you modified.

[rudtf]

wow that really sucks. one of the main reason why i got another audi is because my service center is very helpful and mod friendly as well. hope things work out for u

[mdfast1]

I have an appointment at HBL Audi in Tysons on Monday morning. I'll mention the details of your case and see if I can get them to realize that people know what they are trying to do and how unfair it is. I'm going for my 45k service so im going to wait to put on my rs4 sway bar, since they might think that the sway bar might affect the floor mats in my car.

FYI at HBL Audi @ Tysons when I got my service last time I got a free loaner car for the day.

[stephengraham]

I'm going for my 45k service so im going to wait to put on my rs4 sway bar, since they might think that the sway bar might affect the floor mats in my car.

RS4 sway bar has been known to cause floor mat wear due to aggressive driving.

[CoreyRandmetz]

RS4 sway bar has been known to cause floor mat wear due to aggressive driving.

haha

[cgmiller63]

One more thing, most companies have what they call "office of the president” where customer can escalate their issues. Most lower rung employees do not have the authority to resolve issues such as this. I’d send the letter directly to AOA Corporate Headquarters

Mr. Johan de Nysschen
Executive Vice President
Audi of America
3800 Hamlin Rd.
Auburn Hills, MI
Phone: 248-754-5000

(I am the Executive Assistant to a Sr. Vice President for a major international company and believe me if a problem reaches my office it gets resolved to the customers satisfaction.)

Also, in the bottom of your letter under your signature, put

cc: Federal Trade Commission
Consumer Response Center
600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20580

You don’t really have to send a copy to the FTC, but AOA will think you did and may pay more attention to your letter.

I’ve had a lot of experience in getting issues resolved to my satisfaction using these tricks. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Glassnpowder98]

I have an appointment at HBL Audi in Tysons on Monday morning. I'll mention the details of your case and see if I can get them to realize that people know what they are trying to do and how unfair it is. I'm going for my 45k service so im going to wait to put on my rs4 sway bar, since they might think that the sway bar might affect the floor mats in my car.

FYI at HBL Audi @ Tysons when I got my service last time I got a free loaner car for the day.

Not saying that you should do this because I think I have a strong enough case going for myself anyways, but it would probably be more helpful if you cancelled your 45k service and went to another dealership citing your reasoning. But you can make your own decision and I don't want to inconvenience you for a problem that I'm having...

I wonder why I never get a free loaner?? It must be because my car is red...
Your sway bar comment just reminded me how much I've spent at HBL. Bought the sway bar from them, s4 rear valence (for the awe quad tip I cancelled my order for because of this problem), had them fix the plastic under carrage when it ripped off driving in the snow, had them fix an issue with my coolant leaking, and I get all of my service done there including oil changes every 3-4k miles. I didn't want anyone else to touch my car besides a qualified Audi technician. But this point, no more of my money will be going to that dealership.

[bcramer]

Glass:

Good decision on writing the letter. Also, I would take cgmiller's advice on sending it to a VP or CEO position. Whenever I had to dispute something beyond the normal "manager" I have always gotten the contact information for the CEO or equivalent and sent my concerns straight to them. I have received something better than what I was originally offered 100% of the time. Most times I have gotten exactly what I was asking for.

Also, I'm not sure how much focus or attention you plan on putting on the forum aspect of the letter, but I would only mention at the most. Almost everyone on this board is here because of their fondness of Audi. The execs. are going to be more worried about you voicing your disapproval of their brand to the average consumer. (i.e. your family, friends, coworkers, etc.)

One other thing, I would highly recommend letting one or two people read your letter to check it for tone, amongst other things. I'd be more than willing to offer my advice on that. I'm not a professional writer by any means, but used to be a student english adviser at my college.

Best of luck to you mate!