E85>Race Gas (100+oct)

[ThirdStrike]

Im thinking about running a 50/50 or 70/30 mix of 91 and E85 (ethanol) gas instead of using 100 octane for the race file in my stage 3.
I ran a 50/50 mix in my 1.8t in pump mode and it seemed to run fine. no timing pull, no knock...
has anyone tried this yet?

[infinkc]

talk to 2001s4ny, hes runing e85 straight i believe

[Evilevo]

yea, im suprised he hasnt responded yet. Huge advocate of E85, i would use it, i just wish there was a station near me!

[ThirdStrike]

talk to 2001s4ny, hes runing e85 straight i believe

id go that route but i believe its just too dry. if i do 100% e85 id add a cap or 2 of brake fluid to the tank before starting the car.

there are like 10 stations in my city.. selling it at like low $3 / gallon. i dont see a need for 100 oct anymore

[Das General]

Do you have a larger fuel pump and large injectors (at least 60#)...

You will be able to run crazy amounts of timing with e85.

[AudiTechS4]

also need a retune e85 runs at like 9.1to1 instead of gas 14.7to1 so you would be running lean with the mix

[Allaidback]

Who does E85 tunes? Would a awe stage 3 fueling kit be sufficient?

[Das General]

Who does E85 tunes? Would a awe stage 3 fueling kit be sufficient?

No. Their tune is not designed for e85. On top of that, their hardware cannot handle e85.

Greg@SSP does stage III e85 tunes.

[ThirdStrike]

Do you have a larger fuel pump and large injectors (at least 60#)...

You will be able to run crazy amounts of timing with e85.

no i dont have a larger fuel pump but i do run a wahlbro inline 255... and i have rs4 injectors

and im assuming you guys are talking 100% e85 in the tank?
i was asking if anyone's run a mixture of it and 91 on a race file [stage 3 or not]..?

[2001S4NY]

as far as i know it im the only one who does E85 K03, K04, GT kits and A4 :)

You will need 60lb Injectors even on a K03 and a upgraded fuel pump. you can also use the 60lb injectors on a Stage 3 Car with a upgraded fuel pump since IDC goes all the way up to 92%

[zmw]

e85 is great, just do your research - it's clear you don't understand the difference between e85 and 91/93 (i'm not trying to be rude) - but basically while it is 103 octane give or take, it requires 20-25% more fuel to burn at an AFR that won't make you WAY lean, which is why everyone is harping on having the big pumps and injectors.

Also on an older car, like an S4 if you haven't replaced all the fuel seals, lines, etc - it may be possible that the ethanol will rot away your fuel lines. Although most cars made from the early 2000s on should be fine...

The point here is you can't just dump e85 in your car and run your race map all the time, and your 93 map would cause the car to run so lean that it might not even run at all, and if it does it won't be long before you're 10 grand in debt for repair. - Now I do know plenty of people that have AUGMENTED their 91 or 93 octane fuel with a gallon or two of e85 to bring up the octane rating - but high octane with out the burn characteristics of dyno fuel doesn't buy you much....

also of note is that even though it's cheaper your fuel economy will go down by 20-25% (directly in relation to how much fuel you have to add to burn at a nice health 10:1 to 11:1 over standard 93) so you don't really save money using it either.

-Z

[generationjdm]

E85 is way cheaper then running race gas, keep a spare ecu if you wish to run the 93

[ThirdStrike]

e85 is great, just do your research - it's clear you don't understand the difference between e85 and 91/93 (i'm not trying to be rude) - but basically while it is 103 octane give or take, it requires 20-25% more fuel to burn at an AFR that won't make you WAY lean, which is why everyone is harping on having the big pumps and injectors.

Also on an older car, like an S4 if you haven't replaced all the fuel seals, lines, etc - it may be possible that the ethanol will rot away your fuel lines. Although most cars made from the early 2000s on should be fine...

The point here is you can't just dump e85 in your car and run your race map all the time, and your 93 map would cause the car to run so lean that it might not even run at all, and if it does it won't be long before you're 10 grand in debt for repair. - Now I do know plenty of people that have AUGMENTED their 91 or 93 octane fuel with a gallon or two of e85 to bring up the octane rating - but high octane with out the burn characteristics of dyno fuel doesn't buy you much....

also of note is that even though it's cheaper your fuel economy will go down by 20-25% (directly in relation to how much fuel you have to add to burn at a nice health 10:1 to 11:1 over standard 93) so you don't really save money using it either.

-Z

thank you. this was the info i was looking for... didnt know that
with this being said im going to still try a 50/50 mix (maybe 50 e85 50 100 oct) and pull some logs.

[mike-2ptzero]

Im thinking about running a 50/50 or 70/30 mix of 91 and E85 (ethanol) gas instead of using 100 octane for the race file in my stage 3.
I ran a 50/50 mix in my 1.8t in pump mode and it seemed to run fine. no timing pull, no knock...
has anyone tried this yet?

You wont ever see timing pull because the high ethanol content throws off the ECU and the ecu will never pull timing. Just ask the b6 owner that blew up his 1.8t because he kept adding more timing because he saw zero timing pull.

[2001S4NY]

how much timing did he add? also what was he doing for fueling software? running on stock ecu unmapped and just adding timing?

[Silence]

thank you. this was the info i was looking for... didnt know that
with this being said im going to still try a 50/50 mix (maybe 50 e85 50 100 oct) and pull some logs.

Don't run 50/50. Don't know if you've seen, but I posted about it before. I run a 70/30 mix often, but that only equates to about 95 octane with 91, if you do it with e85 you'll be fine.

Another thing to consider though, is you are running rs4 injectors, which iirc, are around 100% already with a race file, so running them with e85 will send them over a safe threshold. Personally, I wouldn't do it if I were you. Seems you'll run out of injector. I have 60'lbers, and it raises my duty cycle about 20% running a 70/30 cycle on 91.

Do you have ecux? If not, I can meet up today and run some logs with ya if you want.

[mike-2ptzero]

how much timing did he add? also what was he doing for fueling software? running on stock ecu unmapped and just adding timing?

He was running a custom GIAC file and had been talking to Jeff Moss. I dont know how much timing he added, but he kept adding more even after Jeff and GIAC both said that he was running way too much timing.

[generationjdm]

I would clearly blame the user in that case. He must of been running mid 30ss+ degrees of timing.

[Silence]

You wont ever see timing pull because the high ethanol content throws off the ECU and the ecu will never pull timing. Just ask the b6 owner that blew up his 1.8t because he kept adding more timing because he saw zero timing pull.

Untrue. Just because Ted grenaded his motor on a k04 at altitude, doesn't mean e85 freaks out the ecu. Ted's file could've had timing pull turned off for all we know.

[ThirdStrike]

Do you have ecux? If not, I can meet up today and run some logs with ya if you want.

no ..i do not. i usually log with vag-com. pm sent!

[generationjdm]

E85 ranges from 100-110 octane

[2001S4NY]

well there is a limit to everything, just as there is a limit on how much timing you add, you can easily go beyond MBT on E85 and not make any power

[generationjdm]

Greg has ran e85 on his gt car and strong running k04 cars with bone stock motors on both for a while now and no boom! I think he's the best person to speak to about e85 files as he was the first to do it here...

people think by adding timing the more you add the faster or more power you will make, this isn't true by any means

[lrg8683]

so can you NOT run like a 70/30 mix of 93 and e85? add primary (i ahve 60# injectors) and then bump timing? i know when talking to dan about his k03 car he was bumping timing to about +19??? on race gas..

[2001S4NY]

Here is some logs from a E85 Base file on a K04 @23psi

Red is E85
Pink is 93 Octane

These logs have been posted on the internet for a very long time in surprised no one found them on nyet fats fite

[1997gtx]

Why not 93 octane with W/M and a good tune?
--Adam

[generationjdm]

Why not 93 octane with W/M and a good tune?
--Adam

Why not E85 and meth and a good tune like Greg has down in the past

[ThirdStrike]

Why not 93 octane with W/M and a good tune?
--Adam

been there done that but w/m is not cheap either.
i was just wondering about mixing it with pump gas.
silence mentioned doing a 70% pump/30%e85 mix which i think ill try....
this seems to be the most important thing to remember about running e85..correct me if im wrong..

- but basically while it is 103 octane give or take, it requires 20-25% more fuel to burn at an AFR that won't make you WAY lean, which is why everyone is harping on having the big pumps and injectors.

[1997gtx]

How much does running E85 cost, on average, per tank?
--Adam

[ThirdStrike]

How much does running E85 cost, on average, per tank?
--Adam

probably a lot cheaper than $6/gallon ($100/tank?) on 100 octane @ rebel or union76.....

[1997gtx]

Cheaper than a tank of 93 and a bottle of windshield wiper fluid?
--Adam

[zmw]

been there done that but w/m is not cheap either.
i was just wondering about mixing it with pump gas.
silence mentioned doing a 70% pump/30%e85 mix which i think ill try....
this seems to be the most important thing to remember about running e85..correct me if im wrong..

I don't think that quote is the MOST important thing to remember... it is true, but i said it, so of course it is ;) - but you must have a tune that will PROVIDE 20-25% more fuel...

even mixing 30% is dangerous w/o proper tuning... ethanol will allow your car to advance timing beyond safe levels (speaking in general, can't speak to if there are safe guards in (insert favorite tuning here)) - so put it in perspective..... let's assume you have 15 gallons of fuel space available 30% of 15 gallons is 4.5 gallons, that means your tune must have enough adapatability and room to add 6.25% fueling just to keep your AFR at a proper ratio...

I have absolutely no idea how the S4 systems work, but I can tell you on a subie, most of the time you had a +/- 5% on fueling and the DC on tunes was already near 90% which means that if i had to add 6.25 just to keep my AFR at a respectable 11:1 I could be running at 97% which most respectable tuners will tell you is not a safe DC to be at on your injectors...

Now from what you've said you are running stage 3 already which means unless you've upgraded to huge 60# injectors your RS4 injectors are already running at damn near 100% DC - so unless you can verify they are running < 85% i wouldn't even touch e85 at all...

Again remember e85 is not the same as unleaded race fuel - they have different burn characteristics even though the octane is similar... if you really want to use e85 you need to get retuned for appropriate AFRs using e85...

just my .02, and I do not claim to be a tuner or even understand this shit...

-Z

[2001S4NY]

How much does running E85 cost, on average, per tank?
--Adam

i pay $2.85/gal

[ThirdStrike]

I don't think that quote is the MOST important thing to remember... it is true, but i said it, so of course it is ;) - but you must have a tune that will PROVIDE 20-25% more fuel...

even mixing 30% is dangerous w/o proper tuning... ethanol will allow your car to advance timing beyond safe levels (speaking in general, can't speak to if there are safe guards in (insert favorite tuning here)) - so put it in perspective.....

Now from what you've said you are running stage 3 already which means unless you've upgraded to huge 60# injectors your RS4 injectors are already running at damn near 100% DC - so unless you can verify they are running < 85% i wouldn't even touch e85 at all...



-Z

im running rs4 injectors which =42lb / 440cc... i think experience speaks for itself-> silence ran 70/30 mix but had to add 10% fueling with thirdparty software (lemiwinks) ... i wouldnt try this without logging and watching what my ecu is saying at wot. also duely noted i wouldnt try this if my injectors are close to 100% duty cycle on normal race gas..
i can manage tweaking my files to make them work but from consensus opinion i need larger injectors.

Cheaper than a tank of 93 and a bottle of windshield wiper fluid?
--Adam

how many times have you ran windsheild washer fluid instead of a pure 50/50 meth/distilled water mix on your w/m setup?
its not a good idea. the detergent in the fluid makes the mix unpure and is not good for the pump.. back on topic..

[Das General]

If you got larger injectors, you are going to need a new tune, or at least scale the injectors to the current tune, but that is a lot of work. So you might as well get a whole new e85 tune.

[Silence]

Cheaper than a tank of 93 and a bottle of windshield wiper fluid?
--Adam

It is cheaper here, considering 91 octane is about 3.70 a gallon here, and e85 is 2.89. the mixture I run is about 94 octane, and the gas mileage is only about 1 mpg less. Well worth it, although I haven't ruled out w/m in the future.

[Sleeeper X]

How much does running E85 cost, on average, per tank?
--Adam

I guess i'll chime in here. My car on pump gets about 20~22mpg per tank
on E85 I get about 15~17 and if i really baby it 18. I ran e85 for about 5/6 weeks and I loved it..... but i switched back to pump because I stopped working near an e85 station. I was paying 2.95 a gallon while pump was 4.25!!!

[VelocityS4]

I guess i'll chime in here. My car on pump gets about 20~22mpg per tank
on E85 I get about 15~17 and if i really baby it 18. I ran e85 for about 5/6 weeks and I loved it..... but i switched back to pump because I stopped working near an e85 station. I was paying 2.95 a gallon while pump was 4.25!!!

Im assuming you had SSP retune the car for both different fuels though correct?

[2001S4NY]

yes he had a retune done.. he was runing a base file his pump gave out n the new walbro he got was a fake so going bosch 044 now then back to a full e85 tune

[Sleeeper X]

Im assuming you had SSP retune the car for both different fuels though correct?

who eles would i trust?