Headers for the S4

[Captain Insano]

I did a search. Some informative threads, but no real information or reasoning as to why no aftermarket company offers a header for the B6 S4. I'm a little bit shocked by this.

It sounds as though the RS4 header will not fit our S4 cars. Somebody let me know if I'm off on that. So it is even more suprising to me that the aftermarket has not stepped it up to offer a header for the S4. There are absolutely ZERO options. If for no other reasons than to corner the market and be the only company offering a header. It might be pricey, but there are always people willing to spend big bucks on performance.

This is an open thread and all are welcome. Please offer opinion on how much performance there is to be gained by using a quality header for the S4. What would be great is if some of the aftermarket companies chimed in and offered their reasons for not offering a header. Even better, maybe they would let us know they are planning to release a header soon.

[02alltoad]

have you looked at a stock manifold?

[Captain Insano]

I've seen pictures. Why do you ask? Do you feel the location does not allow enough room for a good design?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ghlight=header

[CHECKERED]

Audi with all their “engineering” crammed a V8 in a space designed for an I4 or small V6. So sacrifices had to be made…for example room for headers, the stock headers are restricted due to audi making them so small so they can fit the engine bay.

There are many reasons why there aren’t any aftermarket headers for S4’s

Limited production car = limited possible sales = limited money to be made.

Installation…hmm…the guy that made custom headers had to drop the engine.

You can have a reputable muffler shop make custom headers for you…$1200 per side…gains…well LS1 guys see 15-20 gain with long tubes on stock block their headers aren’t super restricted but they have 5.7L. We might see 10-15 so a 10 gain for around 2K…uhhh……no

[ngng]

I did a search. Some informative threads, but no real information or reasoning as to why no aftermarket company offers a header for the B6 S4. I'm a little bit shocked by this.

It sounds as though the RS4 header will not fit our S4 cars. Somebody let me know if I'm off on that. So it is even more suprising to me that the aftermarket has not stepped it up to offer a header for the S4. There are absolutely ZERO options. If for no other reasons than to corner the market and be the only company offering a header. It might be pricey, but there are always people willing to spend big bucks on performance.

This is an open thread and all are welcome. Please offer opinion on how much performance there is to be gained by using a quality header for the S4. What would be great is if some of the aftermarket companies chimed in and offered their reasons for not offering a header. Even better, maybe they would let us know they are planning to release a header soon.

your performance gains are not going to be had with power mods, but rather suspension and driver education

[Jdubya]

your performance gains are not going to be had with power mods, but rather suspension and driver education

Really? So the extra 100WHP I got on my Cobra wasn't from the additional boost but because I learned to drive it better? Man i should have saved my money.

[Cargo8]

he's talking about on the S4....
No one offers it commercially becuase it's not worth the independent R&D and if someone really wanted to spend "big bucks" for headers, most companies would gladly start up the R&D and take the money and fabricate a one-off, with no personal company risk.

[Captain Insano]

Thanks for the responses guys.

That's actually what I've thought about doing Cargo8. Discussing a potential custom header with Kooks (specialize in domestics) or with Full Race (specialize in Japanese turbo cars which is quite different - but they are experts in every sense of the word when it comes to header R&D and fabrication). Would be expensive, but very, very interesting. The main thing I would ask for is some kind of warranty on the header because if it cracked that would be extremely frustrating to say the least.

[hackers4]

Headers require dropping the motor, which most shops will charge 25-30 hours. (removal and installation)

[Captain Insano]

And before everybody chimes in on "man it's not worth it, thousands of dollars for 10whp...". Please just don't even post.

I'm looking for positive discussion. I know it will be expensive for a header. So don't post the obvious.

If I could make 20whp+ reliably by just a header alone I think the gains are worth thousands considering this is a high end car we are talking about. Some may disagree whether that amount of power is worth thousands, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about power potential of a B6 S4 aftermarket header and potential options for headers. Please, let's try to keep the thread on track.

Thanks.
-dave

[Captain Insano]

Headers require dropping the motor, which most shops will charge 25-30 hours. (removal and installation)

That would be absurd. Motors don't take that long to drop/re-install... Worst case, if that is actually true (which I highly doubt) I would buy a service manual and do it myself.

Please see my last post.

[Ill 3.0]

I hope you work something out, I'd make the 1 hour drive just to hear what it sounds like

[Captain Insano]

Sound would be a bonus. I'm looking for some power that's reliable (why I like the NA engine in the first place).

Thanks. :-)

[richib86]

what about rs4 headers on a s4? i remember one guy in south africa did cams and custom headers on a b6 s4 but never had any software tuning for the cams so it was a worthless install for him and he dropped off the face of the earth (or just audiworld). its a shame too because the headers looks unreal. this guy has headers and he posts on audizine too http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/371667.phtml

[Captain Insano]

My first choice would actually be RS4 headers. I just don't know if they fit. Seems like they should since it's same block and same chassis, but nobody has verified that for me...

Regarding that guy in South Africa and his use of headers, that's actually a very good 1/4 mile run all things considered (he was at 6000 feet altitude), but I didn't take the time to read if he was or was not running Nitrous. I would not be running nitrous, but for comparison sake....

From an altitude calculator used to adjust ET and Trap Speed based on 6000 feet altitude and a 13.07 ET & 107.5 TS:
http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-...calculator.php
Stock and Mildly Modified Naturally Aspirated Engines
12.09 @ 116.111 MPH

Extensively Modified Naturally Aspirated Engines
12.309 @ 113.907 MPH

Extensively Modified Supercharged and Turbocharged Engines
12.65 @ 110.962 MPH

If I could run a 12.3 @ 114 mph in this car with just NA mods I would be ecstatic considering the hefty weight!!

[PenguiN]

My first choice would actually be RS4 headers. I just don't know if they fit. Seems like they should since it's same block and same chassis, but nobody has verified that for me...

Regarding that guy in South Africa and his use of headers, that's actually a very good 1/4 mile run all things considered (he was at 6000 feet altitude)....

From an altitude calculator used to adjust ET and Trap Speed based on 6000 feet altitude and a 13.07 ET & 107.5 TS:
http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-...calculator.php
Stock and Mildly Modified Naturally Aspirated Engines
12.09 @ 116.111 MPH

Extensively Modified Naturally Aspirated Engines
12.309 @ 113.907 MPH

Extensively Modified Supercharged and Turbocharged Engines
12.65 @ 110.962 MPH

If I could run a 12.3 @ 114 mph in this car with just NA mods I would be ecstatic considering the hefty weight!!

I hate to bust your bubble but the guy in south africa was using Nitrous... take that out of the picture and its a whole new story

[Captain Insano]

yeah, I just edited my post earlier saying I didn't take the time to read if he was or was not using nitrous.

I would be happy with anything sub-13 to be honest and I'm at 1000 ft above sea level so in drag racing I'm in a totally different world from that guy. I would think with a full exhaust, header, tune this car should be capable even without nitrous.... Also, depending on his nitrous setup would dictate what he actually gained.

[richib86]

i guess he did end up finding some tuning for those cams, heres another set of pics from the same thread..... droooooooool http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/371896.phtml

[hackers4]

Captain...definitely not bashing you as I am in the process of a full motor build on my S4, including headers. Just stating why they are not being mass-produced...you must drop the motor to put them on. Also, most shops go by what Audi service charges, and Audi charges 30 hrs to drop the motor.

[Captain Insano]

LOL... I know. I saw that pic the other day when I first starting thinking about headers. That's beautiful isn't it? Awesome.

i guess he did end up finding some tuning for those cams, heres another set of pics from the same thread..... droooooooool http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/371896.phtml

[Captain Insano]

Captain...definitely not bashing you as I am in the process of a full motor build on my S4, including headers. Just stating why they are not being mass-produced...you must drop the motor to put them on. Also, most shops go by what Audi service charges, and Audi charges 30 hrs to drop the motor.

Constructive criticism is welcome so no worries...

Service typically over quotes on hours. They have to account for the slowest possible techs... Not saying it wouldn't take a long time to do, just saying there is no way it should take 30 hours.

Also, if you think about it, this is even more reason for aftermarket shops to offer headers. If you were a shop owner and could make 16 or so hours of labor plus charge $1750 (just threw that out there) for a header... Doesn't that sound like alot of profit?? It does to me.

It sounds like you've researched this alot if you are doing a motor build and you have custom headers ready for install. Did you design/fabricate the headers yourself? If not, who did it? More info please.

And just to clarify, I don't know if I'll ever even do headers. I'm just trying to get a conversation going as to what gains can be made from a good header addition to the B6 S4.

[Todd/AWE]

Service typically over quotes on hours. They have to account for the slowest possible techs... Not saying it wouldn't take a long time to do, just saying there is no way it should take 30 hours.

Also, if you think about it, this is even more reason for aftermarket shops to offer headers. If you were a shop owner and could make 16 or so hours of labor plus charge $1750 (just threw that out there) for a header... Doesn't that sound like alot of profit?? It does to me.

Don't go by the lowest price you may find, go by the average price you may find, and then do the math. Afterall, a manufacturer will base their decisions on average numbers.

Would you pay $4000 for a set of headers installed that will yield less than 10hp? Assume $2000 for labor and $2000+ for a set of SS tubular headers.

In our experience, there would be very few people willing to do this, which does not make it worthwhile to get involved in on the mass market scale.

Apparently, we're not alone thinking that, which is why after 4 years of this car being on the market, there are no headers available out there.

[Captain Insano]

Thanks very much Todd for the comments.

Do you think 10 hp is all there is to be gained? That seems really low. But you are right, most would not do $4K for 10 hp. But if it was 25+ hp then I think that might change for alot of people... Tons of people drop in the area of $3K (before an hour or two of labor) for full exhaust and chip. What's that get you, maybe 370 hp at the crank? Correct me if I'm wrong, you know alot more about it than me.

Also, if you could do your own labor (most people will not pull their own engines obviously) $2K doesn't sound too bad for me. Sounds just like another exhaust component....

[PenguiN]

thats gonna be almost 6k including exhaust for a measly 20 HP ... definitely not worth it!

[hackers4]

Todd is correct, to take the motor out took myself and our mechanic 10 hours. Estimating 8 hours to put it back in, that's 18 hours alone in labor. It's just an enormous of work for just headers, hence why I decided to do everything while the motor was out.

[Todd/AWE]

We have not found that the Audi manifolds are terrible from the factory.

You could possible gain more area under the curve if there was more room in the engine bay to play with primary length, but it is way too tight in there.

+10hp would be a generous estimate.

Speaking from experience, most car enthusiasts are still paying for labor when it comes to an engine pull. Yes, there are some people that would not hesitate to do this themselves, but once again, we have to look at the averages when factoring ROI.

[D.K]

Two questions. I not well versed enough with the 4.2 to know much about it.

1.) Would a long tube header setup be a realistic setup on the 4.2 S4s? I'm not sure of the actual room for clearance, but perhaps a LT setup would allow for more room to play with primary length.

2.) Is dropping the front subframe as opposed to pulling the engine a viable option for any type of header install?

[CHECKERED]

This is an open thread and all are welcome. Please offer opinion on how much performance there is to be gained by using a quality header for the S4.

And before everybody chimes in on "man it's not worth it, thousands of dollars for 10whp...". Please just don't even post.

Constructive criticism is welcome so no worries...

So which one is it going to be? Around and around we go

If I could make 20whp+ reliably by just a header alone I think the gains are worth thousands considering this is a high end car we are talking about.

You wont see a 20hp gain, even if you dished out all the money in the world at the end of the day there isn’t enough room to make some good fat long tube headers.
LS1 guys (with restricted headers) cameros and firebirds gain at best 15-20 horspower, with late model LS1's CTS-V, Corvette and GTO owners the engine comes with better flow headers and they see 10 gain If their lucky all this on a 5.7L how are you going to gain 20+ on a 4.2L?

[Quattroownsyou]

Cams, headers, dp's, catback, chip, nitrous etc...(pretty much cover the spectrum as far S4 bolt-ons go. Consider this...you throw all of the above at the S4 motor and yield another 30whp plus another 50 shot of nitrous...all said and done. We're talking in the neighborhood of 15 grand in mods for a daily 30whp and the nitrous for when you need it. You might be better off throwing your money at an RS4.

[99PanozAIV]

There are absolutely ZERO options.

Was this not an option because it's custom?

Full Length Headers B6 S4
Hand built stainless steel headers feature a 1 7/8th tube diameter and come with either a 3in off road x-pipe or catalytic x-pipe using super high flow cats. This kit comes complete and ready to bolt on. These headers will work well with stock displacement all the way to our full blown stroker engine.
Price: $2,989.00

http://www.motodyne.com/frames/audi_s4-v8.html

[Captain Insano]

I was unaware of any headers available that's all. I'm new to the S4 so I'm not familiar with all the options yet. Thanks very much for posting that information.

More than I would have liked to spend on a header (was hoping for 2G or less), but that's pretty cool that there actually is an option to do this readily available.

Anybody know more about this header or more specifically what typical gains are without tune and then also with a tune to account for the better flow?

[hackers4]

Here is all you need to know: Motodyne=Crooks. Do a search on them...it's a bunch of crap.

[Justincredible]

Was this not an option because it's custom?


http://www.motodyne.com/frames/audi_s4-v8.html

That is not a company. That is a professional scam. So no that is not a option

[richib86]

the hack attack has returned, everytime i see motodyne mentioned i cant help but laugh that there still in existence. they were one of the first to produce a power DECREASING supercharger, good older robert HACK

[Captain Insano]

Good to know. Thanks guys. Amazing no matter what model of car there are always a couple shops like that.

[99PanozAIV]

That is not a company. That is a professional scam. So no that is not a option

Amazing. My Panoz has the SVT Ford DOHC engine which is pretty common because of the Mustang. Not surprisingly, because it is so common, it seems like there are more scammers and thieves than there are customers. I thought things might be different on the Audi side but I guess it's just same scams, bigger $.

[Tugboatguy]

You don't need to have custom headers built . RS4 and S4 share the same engine compartment and engine block , the heads are different with different flange bolt patterns and a difference in exhaust port spacing. Take a set of RS4 headers remove the flanges and weld on flanges to fit the S4. You now have S4 headers , will they fit to the S4 DP is the next question? Anyone? And of coarse you still have to pull the engine to install them.

[Captain Insano]

yeah, that's right. The flanges are different (bolt pattern) but the ports would match up the exact same since it's the exact same block.

I suppose that would work (weld a S4 flange onto a RS4 header). But, my next question would be how expensive are RS4 headers?? Unless you are lucky enough to find them at a junk yard, I would imagine they are pricey.

[iamproph]

My friend with a Cayman S just got his headers done and the sound + power increase was amazing, so we started looking and of course found nothing. Seems odd but O well. My question is has anyone redone their cams?

[Captain Insano]

Ha. If nobody has done headers than I would imagine nobody has done cams. Like you, I would love to see what a mild cam upgrade would do as well as some nice headers.