Water Meth Injection on STAGE 2+ without a tune (GIAC X)

[Unispeed]

Short and sweet.. is it worth it? Will any gains be realized?

[espo4442]

I'd like to know as well bump

[Audi S4 Turbo]

Yes. You won't maximize your power by not tuning it, but it should be noticeable. You are lowering IATs pretty substantially. You will make a lot of timing.

[s vier]

i am in the middle of the exact same setup

[Jayco88]

same here, but APR. could anybody give some tips/instructions on how to improve with lemmi?

[espo4442]

bump

[VinNyS4]

bump i want to know more about this..very close to running this setup

[Unispeed]

omg, these replies are not helping with my dillemma.. I was looking for excuses not to buy it, lol Still, how much of a power increase are we talking about on an average giac stage 2+? I know that throwing numbers out there is useless, but are we looking at about 5hp, 10hp 20....hp without a tune?

[rouellettea4]

omg, these replies are not helping with my dillemma.. I was looking for excuses not to buy it, lol Still, how much of a power increase are we talking about on an average giac stage 2+? I know that throwing numbers out there is useless, but are we looking at about 5hp, 10hp 20....hp without a tune?

There is not an exact number for it, honestly this is one mod that is going to vary the gains car to car. It is a huge consistency gainer but as far as gaining power through timing, it is really going to depend on how the car adapts on its own without tuning. That is why you are not getting an answer in number form.

If you need to fall for the same marketing ploy every aftermarket company uses with exhausts and intakes and such to justify buying it, fine.

Average 15-20 hp gains!

[team_soy]

lol at the average gain post...i love seeing those numbers and people being disappointed with the numbers they actual gain

[NastyNogaro]

i am in the middle of the exact same setup

What meth kit are you going with? I am interested in this as well, as I am going to be picking up genjdm's aluminum bi-pipes from ebay which already have bungs tapped.

[Ravalous]

Hey guy's, I'm currently running Giac x with K04's,and stg 2 meth kit, FMIC,piggies, full 3" piping from catback. I dynoed 330awhp & 382lbs... with my setup I set start meth @ 5psi, and full about 10psi.. I think my car ran pretty well on the dynojet but now I'm awaiting my Vast RS4 MAF, and ASP fuelling to yeild some more power.. I just installed a single electric Dumps. can't wait to go back to see some gains..

[s vier]

What meth kit are you going with? I am interested in this as well, as I am going to be picking up genjdm's aluminum bi-pipes from ebay which already have bungs tapped.

Vast/Devils own

[s2the4]

you wont be gaining HP you will be able to deliever the power in a smoother sense. On a healthy stage 3 with a good tune you could be making the same power and timing you would on your Race profile with pump with the aid of water meth.

[VonPooper]

vast's meth kit is 375 but how much is needed for the reservoir tank + install?

[Klum00]

no need for a resevoir just use your stock washer fluid tank. I tapped mine quite easily and then you have a great indicator when it's time to refill.

[casawhites4]

aaron, how long did it take you from start to finish?? would you suggest doing it after winter now? or what.

[Evilevo]

It will help alot more in the summer. I did the alky on my Evo at the end of winter to prepare for summer. It helped some when it was cold out, but made a huge difference when it was hot out. But than again maybe the difference in the winter was going from 23 psi to 30psi

[JMTx86]

It'll run rich, with the meth. You WON'T see a big dif, at least for what your spending for a meth kit. If you get a meth kit you can run a lot more timing but are you really going to mess with your timing? prob not, are you going to get a wideband so you can see what your a/f are? (so you can tune your car properly) prob not, should you get a meth kit? prob not since your not going to actually use it.

I run meth on my evo, would I ever run weth on the s4? nope, not worth the money. Our turbos are crap, the real gain is in boost, timing is def a big factor but our motos are limited by our crap ass turbos. You can run 24 psi on ko4 and make good power, but for how long? they are gonna blow.

Evil evo, going from 23 to 30 was your big diff, you should have also been able to run a shit load more timing while in boost (more tq) with the meth, meth on these cars is nice but how many audi people self tune the car to really be able to justify the cost?

[VinNyS4]

so basically its not worth to run meth on a k03 car without a tune?

[JMTx86]

so basically its not worth to run meth on a k03 car without a tune?

Im sure you'll see a gain (in the summer) but I just think your money is better spent on something else. Thats just me.

[Rated S]

so basically its not worth to run meth on a k03 car without a tune?

It will definitely lower your IATS which will help with heatsoak, but without a tune you can't take advantage of being able to pull timing for gains.

[JMTx86]

It will definitely lower your IATS which will help with heatsoak, but without a tune you can't take advantage of being able to pull timing for gains.

You mean add timing.

[Jayco88]

You mean add timing.

isn't it advance timing?
if you "add" timing wouldn't that be the same as to retard the timing, because that's kinda how it works with lemmiwinks at least.

i really get confused with all these terms

[spinny]

Your car will run lean with meth. It will run slightly faster due to the raised octane, but the gains aren't all they are cracked up to be.

It does prevent heat soak pretty well and keep consistent IAT's.

[VinNyS4]

thanks for all the replys i basically have all the major bolt ons on my s, but im still looking for more power and right now i dont have the money for k04s thats why I considered running meth is there anything else out there that will give me a decent gain for the track? mods in the sig.

[JMTx86]

Your car will run lean with meth. It will run slightly faster due to the raised octane, but the gains aren't all they are cracked up to be.

It does prevent heat soak pretty well and keep consistent IAT's.

It'll run lean? I really don't think so, you'd have to show me logs to prove otherwise. I have plenty of proof saying the complete opposite. I have to lean my map out (on the evo) to get my desired a/f when running meth.

You want a better 1/4 time, get some nitrousor a race gas map. Q16 alone (with a tune of course) will give you some serious gains, you'd have to pull fuel (it oxygen enriched) and you'd be able to add a lot of timing.

[spinny]

It'll run lean? I really don't think so, you'd have to show me logs to prove otherwise. I have plenty of proof saying the complete opposite. I have to lean my map out (on the evo) to get my desired a/f when running meth.

You want a better 1/4 time, get some nitrousor a race gas map. Q16 alone (with a tune of course) will give you some serious gains, you'd have to pull fuel (it oxygen enriched) and you'd be able to add a lot of timing.

Yes it will run lean, this has been proved with a log. I'll try to get it from my friend and post it.

Think about it, you're adding more timing, without adding more fuel. I thought it would be the opposite but much to my dismay it leaned it out a bit.

As far as a solid HP @ the wheels #, it will never happen. It all depends on where you place your nozzles, when you start spraying, when your full spray comes on, etc..

Just because someone else made lets say, 15WHP doesn't mean you will make the same - too many variables.

I'm considering taking the meth injection off my car. I really didn't see much of a benefit when logging. The first time it seemed to drop the IAT's by about 20 degrees but after that it wasn't having much of an effect.

I'll do more logging possibly tomorrow with meth on/off and see the difference. I only logged it once.

[rageman2]

Um, but you are running more fuel - methanol IS fuel. Wideband log:


And you don't add timing just by adding meth/water - the ecu will if it sees lower knock voltages. You would have to add it via programming or lemmiwinks. Blue is with meth/water - GIAC X software with no tweaks.




So how do you run lean by adding meth/water injection without changing anything else? Incorrect nozzle size or pump pressure? What kit are you running?

[MissingPixels]

Yes. You won't maximize your power by not tuning it, but it should be noticeable. You are lowering IATs pretty substantially. You will make a lot of timing.

You are correct on the first part but how will you advance your timing without some way to tune?

...

You wouldn't really gain any benefits from meth without tuning. If you just want colder charge temps, drive your car on a cold night and save yourself whatever rediculous price these Euro shops are asking for "their" meth kits.

Honestly, you are just wasting money if you buy a methanol injection kit without tuning for it. The idea of methanol is to run higher boost or more timing. Both require tuning.

On a side note, what are you Audi guys using to tune?

[spinny]

I thought a 50/50 mix of water/meth is not a flammable? I'm going to go try right now :)

[rageman2]

wiki says:
"It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, poisonous liquid with a distnctive odor that is somewhat milder and sweeter than ethanol. At room temperature it is a polar liquid and is used as an antifreeze, solvent, fuel, and as a denaturant for ethanol. It is also used for producing biodiesel via transesterification reaction."

How about those logs?

[spinny]

wiki says:
"It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, poisonous liquid with a distnctive odor that is somewhat milder and sweeter than ethanol. At room temperature it is a polar liquid and is used as an antifreeze, solvent, fuel, and as a denaturant for ethanol. It is also used for producing biodiesel via transesterification reaction."

How about those logs?

I said I don't think a 50/50 mix is flammable.. I just tried to burn some outside on the ground, it really didn't light too well.

[JMTx86]

Yes it will run lean, this has been proved with a log. I'll try to get it from my friend and post it.

Think about it, you're adding more timing, without adding more fuel. I thought it would be the opposite but much to my dismay it leaned it out a bit.

Im basing my answer on NO tune, which is what the OP asked for. I think this thread is over at this point. What have we concluded?

Meth w/o a tune is not worth it.

[Rated S]

Well if you live in SoCal where it's still hitting 105 near November, the lower IATs are nice.