DIY - B6 1.8t - Vacuum line and Check Valve removal/simplification

[Seerlah]

I see what you did there . Thanks! I also edited my last post with another inquiry, if you don't mind answering.

[Seerlah]

I was actually just using the pcv as a plug. Should I get an actual plug for that port, then?

[old guy]

I was actually just using the pcv as a plug. Should I get an actual plug for that port, then?

Absolutely not!!! the PCV is a one way valve. It is allowing the block pressure to vent out. If you plug it the block will not be able to vent. Leave it in place or just run an open line. Either way you are doing the same thing.

[Seerlah]

I have an AWM (B5), with the other pcv gone (pancake valve). My other PVC (pancake valve) would be on the tip itself, while the AMB guys have it on the back of the valve cover. That pcv is gone. If I plugged the one by the block breather (one we are referring to), the blow by would just keep going up the pcv piping to the 3 way valve cover breather hose, then into the atmosphere (I have nothing attached to the 3 way breather currently, on the exhaust side of the engine).

Also, my car is currently on jack stands. I'm doing some stuff to it and this is part of the stuff. I just want to confirm I am doing it right before I turn my car over.

[old guy]

If I am understanding you correctly you are connecting your lower block breather to the valve cover breather and venting both to atmosphere. If that is correct then yes it will work to vent the block. What it won't do is purge the block vapors with fresh air.

[Charles.waite]

The pancake is the prv not pcv.

[Seerlah]

Thanks for the correction. ECS listed it as the PCV valve also, but I always called it the pancake valve (never knew the name of it). Thought ECS had it correct, and we had two pcv valves and not one (ECS link).

So?
PRV: Pressure release valve
PCV: Pressure control valve

[scubagli]

ok so i need a vac source plugging back into the end of the oil vapour (crank and vc) collection line. is your exhaust stock without modification or am i going to have to remove the downpipe and get a slanted tube welded in? fuks sakes.
test pipe arrives 2mo, how about i drill out the 2nd lambda boss and slap the fumes into there? frickin lambdas, i should only need one once the cat is gone.

cheers for the help dude.
my evap 16895 came back on, im gonna leave it until i get it remapped, im not arsed really.

I have a 3" DP, got the exhaust port from jegs, 45 degree o2 sensor port, with an AN fitting...


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[old guy]

The purpose of the block ventilation system is twofold. It relieves internal pressure from blow-by gasses and it also purges these concentrated blow-by gasses with fresh air. If you simply run an open dump you will not get the benefit of any purge air in the block. Can you do that? Certainly. Lots of guys on here are running open dumps. Should you do that? In my opinion, no.

The 1.8T motor is already at a disadvantage with high oil temperatures from the turbo and a fairly small oil capacity that both contribute to sludge conditions. Why put an additional burden on the motor by allowing blow-by gasses to accumulate in the block? If you are concerned with burning the blow-by gasses you can always add a catch can and filter them out. There is absolutely no performance down side to leaving the basic block ventilation system intact. There are consequences to allowing the blow-by gasses to concentrate. I already mentioned the increased possibility of sludge formation. Another down side is the caustic effect the blow-by gasses have on the seals and gaskets in the motor.

Moisture control can also become an issue, especially in the winter. An active purge system helps to quickly remove the moisture. Without a purge it will take a lot longer to get the moisture out of the block. If you make a lot of short trips the moisture content will continue to increase until you start to see a chocolatey froth developing.



Virtually ALL motors come with a block purge system. Modern cars typically use a PCV system to vent the block and capture the noxious fumes for environmental reasons. Prior to the PCV systems the purge was provided by a valve cover vent and a road draft tube and the fumes vented to atmosphere. Either way the block was purged. All you are doing is providing a pressure blow off without the purge function.

[waldo1324]

has anyone done this and corrected a vac leak / boost leak?

just curious if its a possible fix for my efing effing effing boost leak.

also- whats your personal preference on breather setup? artmosphere? vac to mani? catch can?

[BARRY]

has anyone done this and corrected a vac leak / boost leak?

just curious if its a possible fix for my efing effing effing boost leak.

also- whats your personal preference on breather setup? artmosphere? vac to mani? catch can?

as old guy stated...venting straight to the atmosphere is bad for our motors. when venting directly to the atmosphere, think of it this way...your engine once shut off is expelling hot air and fumes. once your engine cools down the air will compress slightly and suck outside air through your vent tube back into the engine. since outside air has more moisture than any air that has been in recirculation, you will essentially be adding water in small doses to your oil. water in small doses to your oil will cause sludge and froth. most people think oh my catch can caught all this nasty stuff. in actuality the catch can the first stop to and from the engine and outside air. all that nasty stuff you see in your catch can is water from the outside air being mixed with your engine oil.

i ended up not removing much from my car when i worked on it recently. i had spent maybe 500 dollars in hoses and a catch can with plans to rebuild my entire system. i was planning to have "catched oil" reintroduce itself into the crankcase as an entirely closed system. to be upfront about things, there really is not a good place to drain back the oil aside from adding a secondary crankcase breather. eventually when i go big turbo i will be using the oil drain back tee'ed for my catch can drain back.

another thing most of you don't realize is, adding negative pressure to your crank case is a good thing. negative pressure means less work your pistons and crankshaft have to output to spin. negative pressure promotes positive ring sealing. with a OEM type configuration you are getting close to a neutral environment. with venting to the atmosphere, you honestly need to vent quite more than one port to the atmosphere. at that point eventually you'll get to a situation where more oil is being lost than it is worth doing. my old race car would sign around 9,500rpm so much at the end of a track day, i would be 1 quart short of oil. eventually you learn, recirculating/filtering/whatever is definitely a good thing for your engine in the long run. for your pocket book as well.

[SHAKING STEVENS]

If you simply run an open dump you will not get the benefit of any purge air in the block. Can you do that? Certainly. Lots of guys on here are running open dumps. Should you do that? In my opinion, no.

The ideal arrangement IMHO would be the earlier design like the 2002 B6 1.8T, but with direct manifold vacuum source to the bleeder valve like the AEB (97-99 B5 1.8T). That keeps only the necessary parts of the system while eliminating a lot of complexity and possible leak points.

negative pressure means less work your pistons and crankshaft have to output to spin. negative pressure promotes positive ring sealing. with a OEM type configuration you are getting close to a neutral environment.

thanks for the responses, this kind of wraps this up now. Basically, when zimms666 stated to "remove all that crank vent shit under the manifold" he is far too relaxed in saying so, im not blaming him, i make my own decisions, but this was made in haste.

In summary, if your keeping your motor and want the best for it, i would try and leave the crankcase vacuum and air purge system in place, the hoses are not a massive access hinderance, and you can still remove alot of the other stuff. piston windage on these motors should perhaps be considered with more concern than just 'it's negligable'.

In my (time limited) situation, I'm hoping to put the one way pcv on the outlet breather to atmosphere, thus preventing moist air leakage into the engine volume. In the longer term, afer I've fitted my new milltek exhaust, I will look to re establish the fresh air purge system, somehow, with the bits i have left over. Now i can see why it is important.

Again- cheers for speaking up gents.

[OrangeDUB]

as old guy stated...venting straight to the atmosphere is bad for our motors. when venting directly to the atmosphere, think of it this way...your engine once shut off is expelling hot air and fumes. once your engine cools down the air will compress slightly and suck outside air through your vent tube back into the engine. since outside air has more moisture than any air that has been in recirculation, you will essentially be adding water in small doses to your oil. water in small doses to your oil will cause sludge and froth. most people think oh my catch can caught all this nasty stuff. in actuality the catch can the first stop to and from the engine and outside air. all that nasty stuff you see in your catch can is water from the outside air being mixed with your engine oil.

i ended up not removing much from my car when i worked on it recently. i had spent maybe 500 dollars in hoses and a catch can with plans to rebuild my entire system. i was planning to have "catched oil" reintroduce itself into the crankcase as an entirely closed system. to be upfront about things, there really is not a good place to drain back the oil aside from adding a secondary crankcase breather. eventually when i go big turbo i will be using the oil drain back tee'ed for my catch can drain back.

another thing most of you don't realize is, adding negative pressure to your crank case is a good thing. negative pressure means less work your pistons and crankshaft have to output to spin. negative pressure promotes positive ring sealing. with a OEM type configuration you are getting close to a neutral environment. with venting to the atmosphere, you honestly need to vent quite more than one port to the atmosphere. at that point eventually you'll get to a situation where more oil is being lost than it is worth doing. my old race car would sign around 9,500rpm so much at the end of a track day, i would be 1 quart short of oil. eventually you learn, recirculating/filtering/whatever is definitely a good thing for your engine in the long run. for your pocket book as well.

That's some awesome knowledge my friend. After reading this I am going to go from atmospheric to catch can -> vacuum. My pancake was bad- should I worry about replacing that, considering I'll be using a catch can or no?

[walky_talky20]

I am also proponent of keeping the closed/vacuum system. However, I'm also a proponent of simplifying. In my personal opinion, the later B6 breather system got absolutely out of hand with all the check valves and plastic pipes. Lots of failure points are added. The ideal arrangement IMHO would be the earlier design like the 2002 B6 1.8T, but with direct manifold vacuum source to the bleeder valve like the AEB (97-99 B5 1.8T). That keeps only the necessary parts of the system while eliminating a lot of complexity and possible leak points. And using the 034 silicone/billet parts makes it even better. Again, completely my opinion, and that is how I set up mine as outlined in my B5 Vac "simplification" DIY thread.

[holywar0902]

After doing this vacuum line delete, anyone notice the diverter valve sound different? Mine sounds more crisp, not woooosh but like woosh lol, and no more flutter when I let off in vacuum.

[mcclintock89]

If anyone does this anytime soon, PM me and I will buy your parts you take off if they are still in good shape!

[NJeuro]

Can any one show me how they routed the crankcase beather to the back of the valve cover .. Im replacing my cracked breather hose and wanna make sure im routing it correctly
And I have two ports on the back of my valve cover a smaller port and larger port i plugged the smaller one is that ok to do ?

[caspar]

I saw this on the net -
Should it work for blocking?

[daihashi]

I saw this on the net -
Should it work for blocking?

looks like my IE block off; pretty cool to see an Audi genuine part, does the other side have a spot for an O-ring? If so then just make sure it's flat/true, use a machinist straight edge.

[J_L]

Today I went full retard and decided to take action. The car only got worse the last couple of weeks and was a nighmare to drive.
the symphtoms was:
-horrible cold start, missfired like a mofo
-missfires when fully warmed
-loud horror sound from the engine at idle/vacuum, like a cat slowly dying in the engine bay, screaming.
-high fuel consumption
-loss of oil, although no oil leak
-temp guage working when it felt like
-insane vacuum from oil dipstick tube/oil filler cap

I had no codes stored in the ecu, so I narrowed it down to a bad pcv system and vac leaks. So after reading this thread
next, I ordered some resistors and a block of plate from IE, along with billet block and valve cover adapter+ AN fittings to route it to the ground for now.
So today was D-day and I took it all out, n112,n249,combi valve,PVC system,the vacum thing under the engine,SAI and ALL the old vacuum hoses.
I hooked one new line to the bov and one to the brake booster+ new fresh lines to the n75 valve. I took the IM off and replaced the leaking Injector cups,
changed the coolant sensor (super easy with the combi valve out of the way, did it in like 30 sec), put in a new O2 sensor, new IM gasket
and cleaned the maf sensor, TB and IT sensor with brake cleaner. it all took me about 6 hr from start to end.



at the end of the day, this was the result



tried to fire her up, but it wouldnt start, and I was like "dear god, what have have i done" lol, but after about 10 sec, she fired up just fine.

the result:
-no vacuum storm in oil filler cap/dipstick tube
-no missfire at cold start
-no missfire when warmed up
-no cat screaming sound from the engine
-no cell
-no codes
-runs super smooth at idle
-quicker boost response
-temp gauge working for the first time in 1 year

I scanned my ecu with the new Motoza software I got in the mail yesterday, and no codes.

And last, the usual whoring:


and dont mind my bad english writing skills;)

[diagnosticator]

The crankcase vent dump to ground will make a mess. I recommend installing a MANN ProVent crankcase ventilation catch can/oil mist coalescer to limit oil lost from the crankcase, and stop the emission of regulated hydrocarbons and CO from the crankcase. The ProVent returns trapped oil to the crankcase, and routes the crankcase blow by gasses to the intake between the MAF meter and the turbo compressor intake. Since the vented gasses are cleaned of all oil aerosols/mist, the intake will stay clean, unlike the stock setup that does not trap the oil and water in the crankcase gasses. Using the ProVent, eliminates most of the negative effects of removing all of the crankcase ventilation equipment that you described.

[J_L]

The crankcase vent dump to ground will make a mess. I recommend installing a MANN ProVent crankcase ventilation catch can/oil mist coalescer to limit oil lost from the crankcase, and stop the emission of regulated hydrocarbons and CO from the crankcase. The ProVent returns trapped oil to the crankcase, and routes the crankcase blow by gasses to the intake between the MAF meter and the turbo compressor intake. Since the vented gasses are cleaned of all oil aerosols/mist, the intake will stay clean, unlike the stock setup that does not trap the oil and water in the crankcase gasses. Using the ProVent, eliminates most of the negative effects of removing all of the crankcase ventilation equipment that you described.

thanks for the info, the dump to ground was moore of a temp solution for today. The Man Provent is deff a nice buildt pcv breather :)

[tuesdayninja]

Today, thanks to a broken breather tube, I'll be removing the PCV valve under the IM and replacing it with just the elbow to the crank and heater hose to the 3 way at the VC. Can I vent the crank and VC back to the TIP, similar to the stock setup? I'll keep the PRV on and dump the hardline back to the TIP. Or must I install a catchcan between the PRV and TIP? Or would I be better off venting to atmosphere under the car?

[03AudiA41.8T]

can we get a parts list of what all we need to complete this from start to finish. would love to get rid of everything possible and prob. fix many vacuum leaks in the process

[J_L]

can we get a parts list of what all we need to complete this from start to finish. would love to get rid of everything possible and prob. fix many vacuum leaks in the process

Here you go bro:)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-for-your-1.8T

[nofearhawk]

Parts list? Some rubber caps, clamps, zip ties and a 5mm hex tool? EGR/SAI blockoff plate.

And some resistors if you don't have the ability to code it out.

[n7plus1]

some info on that part listed above:
http://www.passatworld.com/forums/76...5-front-3.html

[03AudiA41.8T]

thanks everyone

[CrazyCal]

Have a couple quick questions....

I plan on using the catch can method from the crankcase breather to the TIP. I know I need a check valve in between to prevent pressure travelling back through the breather and into the crankcase. I currently have the 034 Breather Kit. I'm planning on plugging the PCV outlet on the 034 crank breather hose. That means the billet PCV won't be used.

My two questions:

Am I wrong in assuming I could just use the Billet PCV (instead of a standard check valve) on the Catch Can side of Valve Cover "T" Hose as pictured below?

Any issue with the placement along the line (before or after the catch can) or does it even make a difference?

[BARRY]

Have a couple quick questions....

I plan on using the catch can method from the crankcase breather to the TIP. I know I need a check valve in between to prevent pressure travelling back through the breather and into the crankcase. I currently have the 034 Breather Kit. I'm planning on plugging the PCV outlet on the 034 crank breather hose. That means the billet PCV won't be used.

My two questions:

Am I wrong in assuming I could just use the Billet PCV (instead of a standard check valve) on the Catch Can side of Valve Cover "T" Hose as pictured below?

Any issue with the placement along the line (before or after the catch can) or does it even make a difference?

my general comments to this without getting into the previously mentioned items...if you vent your catch can to your intake before your MAF you do not need a PCV valve. then again if you vent before your MAF lets hope your catch cant is not introducing ANY oil mist into the MAF which will cause it to fail. You do not want to introduce any unmetered air into your intake tract which is why we have a air suction valve.

the OEM configuration is one amazingly perfect design if you think about it. it does exactly what it should do, but in practicality it is unreliable in the long run. The entire system should have been constructed probably as a contained box of some sort with minimal plastic/rubber used. external rubber hoses exempt from that analysis. and that junction box should have been serviceable.

[old guy]

The PCV valve serves no purpose if it isn't hooked to a vacuum source. Its primary function is to provide block vacuum and prevent boost. The line you show it installed in provides minimal vacuum at best and no boost. No need for any type of check valve in that line.

[CrazyCal]

The PCV valve serves no purpose if it isn't hooked to a vacuum source. Its primary function is to provide block vacuum and prevent boost. The line you show it installed in provides minimal vacuum at best and no boost. No need for any type of check valve in that line.

I was going by the information provided by greg@podi in post #357.

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[old guy]

I was going by the information provided by greg@podi in post #357.

And exactly where is this boost signal going to come from? Look at your diagram and think it through.

[CrazyCal]

You're right. There's no way for any sort of boost to travel through the TIP. If anything, it would be relieved by the gaping hole (ie the filter) anyway.
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
What would be the best vacuum source to use instead of just dumping it down by the tranny and using no vacuum source? It seems as if the block breather would benefit from a catch can and vacuum.


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[old guy]

Well if you read my sig it pretty much sums it up. The OEM set up works as long as it is properly maintained. Mine works fine after 9 years and 160k+ miles. Needless to say I have replaced a few components over the years. A boost/vacuum gauge and bi-annual pressure test will help you keep everything working properly. As long as your motor is healthy the amount of oil vapor blow-by recycling through the intake really isn't going to hurt anything. The 1.8T has manifold mounted injectors and consequently the intake wash-down keeps everything in the head clean. It's a different story for the direct inject motors and whenever I go to one of those I will definitely be looking at modifying the OEM system.

[Charles.waite]

Well if you read my sig it pretty much sums it up. The OEM set up works as long as it is properly maintained. Mine works fine after 9 years and 160k+ miles. Needless to say I have replaced a few components over the years. A boost/vacuum gauge and bi-annual pressure test will help you keep everything working properly. As long as your motor is healthy the amount of oil vapor blow-by recycling through the intake really isn't going to hurt anything. The 1.8T has manifold mounted injectors and consequently the intake wash-down keeps everything in the head clean. It's a different story for the direct inject motors and whenever I go to one of those I will definitely be looking at modifying the OEM system.

The FSI pcv system is a bit of a cluster that's for sure. Mine working just fine though with the newest revision stuff, but it's so failure prone its retarded.

[OrangeDUB]

Lol we need a new version of the 1.8t SAI/Evap/PCV thread written a little more clearly. No offense to the OP- it would be just nice to have a more cut and dry DIY that takes into account all the awesome info that has been brought forth in the discussion in this thread.

[walky_talky20]

Lol we need a new version of the 1.8t SAI/Evap/PCV thread written a little more clearly. No offense to the OP- it would be just nice to have a more cut and dry DIY that takes into account all the awesome info that has been brought forth in the discussion in this thread.

I did a decently detailed write up for the B5 1.8T (if I do say so myself):
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Simplification

I approach the systems individually so people can pick and choose the deletes they want to do. This is pretty much directly applicable to the 2002 and early 2003 B6. The "mid" and "late" B6 1.8T vacuum/PCV systems do differ slightly, though.

[Matt Devo]

I did a decently detailed write up for the B5 1.8T (if I do say so myself):
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Simplification

I approach the systems individually so people can pick and choose the deletes they want to do. This is pretty much directly applicable to the 2002 and early 2003 B6. The "mid" and "late" B6 1.8T vacuum/PCV systems do differ slightly, though.

looks good, but I'm concerned that there's no longer a check valve between the manifold and brake booster. The booster isn't designed to see 15+ psi of boost, you should probably consider using a check valve instead of the brass coupler

[EErie B6]

looks good, but I'm concerned that there's no longer a check valve between the manifold and brake booster. The booster isn't designed to see 15+ psi of boost, you should probably consider using a check valve instead of the brass coupler

I know (on the B6 at least) there is one built into the Brake Booster.

Walky and/or Old Guy...

Looking at this pic here:



Any reason why 1 check valve would not suffice at the green "T" ? so it would go Manifold > check valve > T fitting ?