TB - Stealership - Install FAIL - PIC's of 300, 4,800, and 60,000 miles

[ad03avant]

So I had my timing belt inspection today, just 4,800 miles after the belt was replaced at an independent shop. Stealership says it needs a new one and took me out to look at it. I saw wear on the sides of the belt, and some sort of creasing/crackin in the middle. What the hell man. They siad it didn't even look like it was replaced 5,000 miles ago. My understanding is now that they inspected and suggested replacement, if I dont do it and it breaks they wont warranty, even though its been replaced once already.

To top it off I moved 3 hours away from where the original shop did the replacement. Now im going to have to harrass them into fixing their job so im not screwed by audi. Probably taking time off work to go back up ot where that show is. What a PITA. I should make them give me my money back and just have Audi do it.

D

[kwimberly]

My understanding is now that they inspected and suggested replacement, if I dont do it and it breaks they wont warranty, even though its been replaced once already.

That's my understanding, too. sucks.

[ad03avant]

It seems like audi is screwing me after the independent guys screwed me. I see no way that a timing belt should be so worn audi recomends replacement after 5000 miles. WTF?

[pondside36]

Did you bring the parts to the indy shop or did they procure them for you? Either way I would definatly be going back to them with the dealership's findings and demanding that they redo it. Did you take any pictures of the worn belt? If so bring those along... I hope it all works out to your advantage.

[Mike02A4]

Thats not cool. But I don't see how Audi is screwing you by not warrantying a belt that the indy shop did.

[ad03avant]

Yeah, udi is probably no srewing me, im just mad. Ill go back to the indy shop. Hopefully, if there is a problem they can work with the audi dealership to verify the problem. I should have taken pictures!

[A4natomical]

Did you bring the parts to the indy shop or did they procure them for you? Either way I would definatly be going back to them with the dealership's findings and demanding that they redo it. Did you take any pictures of the worn belt? If so bring those along... I hope it all works out to your advantage.

^^^what he said. did u supply the indy shop with your new timing belt?

[ad03avant]

No, they got the parts themselves and I have the part numbers from their invoice. 06B 198 119 A Timing Belt Kit-N (171.68), 06B 109 477A T-Belt Tensioner Damper-N (113.25). I am quite sure they got Audi parts, because the stealership is just right down the way from them. I just found out on Sat, so I havent talked to the independent shop yet.

I love my Audi just as much as the next guy and think the company makes great cars. BUT... I guess my concern with Audi is - its great and all that they offer this extended warranty, but it doesn't really mean s*it. It means they designed a motor with a flaw (***in terms of the timing belt breakage) and now they say, - since we know its flawed we'll check out yours and tell you to fix it for a grand and some change. Even if it was just fixed 5,000 miles ago. As long as you do that, well cover you till 105,000 miles. Come now, 2 belts before I hit 60,000 miles, that is insane!!

I do now understand what could have caused that thing to wear so fast? Did I just get a defective belt? Did the shop not get a tensioner lined up right of something? Since the tensioners were replaced it should be ok I would think. Im no audi engine expert though, maybe some of the guys on here that really know those motors can provide me some more insight?

D

[passatkid]

YOu need to go to the first shop and make sure they changed the belt its self and if not there should be a 12,000/12 month warranty, and telling them audi said it needs to be changed should be enough for them to do the work again with new parts.

[AudiA4_20T]

No, they got the parts themselves and I have the part numbers from their invoice. 06B 198 119 A Timing Belt Kit-N (171.68), 06B 109 477A T-Belt Tensioner Damper-N (113.25). I am quite sure they got Audi parts, because the stealership is just right down the way from them. I just found out on Sat, so I havent talked to the independent shop yet.

I love my Audi just as much as the next guy and think the company makes great cars. BUT... I guess my concern with Audi is - its great and all that they offer this extended warranty, but it doesn't really mean s*it. It means they designed a motor with a flaw (***in terms of the timing belt breakage) and now they say, - since we know its flawed we'll check out yours and tell you to fix it for a grand and some change. Even if it was just fixed 5,000 miles ago. As long as you do that, well cover you till 105,000 miles. Come now, 2 belts before I hit 60,000 miles, that is insane!!

I do now understand what could have caused that thing to wear so fast? Did I just get a defective belt? Did the shop not get a tensioner lined up right of something? Since the tensioners were replaced it should be ok I would think. Im no audi engine expert though, maybe some of the guys on here that really know those motors can provide me some more insight?

D

1. Audi probably just said it needed to be changed there so they could make $$, are you sure there is physical wear on the belt?

2. Audi made a motor that when the timing belt snaps, it fails, it happens in a bunch of cars... not that uncommon

[passatkid]

On the second one the only difference is when it happens on other vehilces its a 500 dollar fix, when it happens on an audi its 3k fix.

[A4TL]

huh dropping a valve on any multivalve (3 to 5V per cylinder) can roach the entire motor.

not many motors are non interference timing belt these days.

[ad03avant]

1. Audi probably just said it needed to be changed there so they could make $$, are you sure there is physical wear on the belt?

2. Audi made a motor that when the timing belt snaps, it fails, it happens in a bunch of cars... not that uncommon

1. I saw the physical wear on the belt. It was a strip 3-4 mm on each side of the belt, discolored and wore. I didn't take pictures but should of. There was also what looked like a crease that the audi tech said would eventually split.

2. It doesn't matter if it happens on other cars. Why was there a lawsuit that resulting in this extended warranty that seems next to worthless?

Im pretty sure the indy shop will replace, just a pain in the ass. I cant believe that a new belt would wear like that in just 5,000 miles. Something is up here.

[spelunking]

I'm willing to bet the ind shop never replaced the belt, did you see the old belt? How do you know it was replaced?

[ad03avant]

I never saw the old belt, I just assumed that they did the repair. They seemed like a pretty good shop. If they give me any crap about redoing their job they I will have to do something drastic like report to the bbb and write a letter to the local paper.

Im curious if anyone else has ever had a belt show wear this fast?

[spelunking]

It makes more sense that they didn't replace it, than it does that the belt wore down in 5,000 miles. Of course they could have installed it wrong, I guess, but I doubt it.

[orttauq]

Has anyone actually read into the extended warranty that audi is providing? Seems not.

The warranty isn't on the BELT. It's on the belt breaking due to the hydraulic tensioner failing. If the belt is worn, the won't warranty it. If they inspect the belt, give it the OK, and the belt fails between then and the end of the extended warranty terms, they will cover it based on the fact that they felt the belt was sufficient enough to last to 105k. If they find a worn belt, that's not their problem.

[ad03avant]

I read it and I understand that. I'm just saying that I had the f*%king thing replaced 5,000 miles ago. Wait, let me rephase. I paid to have the f*%king thin replaced 5,000 miles ago!

D

[AudiA4_20T]

NO BELT should show any signs of wear after 5k, sounds like they didnt replace it

[pondside36]

Also from reading your post it appears they didn't do the water pump while they were in there. You may want them to do that as well since leaking coolant from the pump houseing o-ring will cause pre-mature failure as well.... good luck once again and keep us updated.

[ad03avant]

Ill let you guys know what I find out today. Im pretty sure the water pump was done, because it was leaking prior to the repair, now it no longer leaks. Again that was an item I paid to have replaced...

[ad03avant]

So I talked to the indy shop today. They gauranteed that they replaced that belt and tenshioners when they did the water pump. I have let them work directly with the audi dealer who said the belt was bad and they are awaiting a little more information from the service manager. I doubt that Audi is going back on their conclusion about the belt though.

It seems that they (the indy shop) are willing to replace my belt once they get to talk in more detail with the folks at Audi.

Today going over everything again, I am beggining to question this dealer a bit. When I was in there they told me that I only have to change my oil every 10,000 which is not what another audi dealer told me and is definately not what I see on here. Because of the potential sludge problem we may have, it is well known that we are to change the oil every 5,000. Even after I pushed them with this info they stuck by their guns that changing the oil any more often than 10,000 was overkill. This makes me question the stealership a bit, but they did show me the wear on the belt so Im not really sure who to believe. Additionally, the indy shop told me they are one of the worst Audi dealers in pugent sound and there is a lot of information on the vw forums talking sh*t about them.

The independent shop has been working with me to replace the belt though so I am thankful of that. I will know more in a day or so.

D

[pondside36]

Glad to hear everyone is cooperating in an attempt to make things right and fix your car.

[ad03avant]

So today the dealership stood by its claim and the indy shop wants pictures before they will consider replacement. They think Audi is just trying to make money.

So I just went out and redid the inspection myself with plenty of documentation. Check out these pictures and tell me what you think about my belt with 4,900 miles on it...































Whats the verdict?

[manhertm]

I not TB expert, but that belt looks fine. I don't see any cracks or odd wear marks. The line in the last few pics, don't look like a crack to me.

[brewmastr]

i dont know, flash on your camera or the lighting is not doing well for those photo's, it does concern me a bit that after 4800 miles i do not see clear writing on the belt, it should still look like a new belt, makes me wonder if they used an off brand belt with no markings on it, i dont see anything on the top side of the belt that really indicates a problem though.

[ad03avant]

you can see the writing on the fifth picture from the bottom, it is faint like it is beggining to wear off. Yeah, I need a better camera, but that is all that i have.

The dealership pointed to the wear marks along the edge belt (the side that is away from the motor). These are clear in many of the pics, its like a line that is 2-3 mm on the edge. They (the dealership) also pointed to the line in the center of the belt that is evident in these pictures. They said that was a crease that would eventually split. When I was there with the technician, I believed them - but now looking at the pictures and firsthand at the belt, I amd beginning to question that.

Its a lot easier to believe when there is a Audi technician and service manager standing there telling you its wear.

Im not sure what to believe anymore.

[jackyaudi]

Let me tell you what just happened with me. Last week, car was at the dealer to replace the radiator under warranty. Ok, so they call me and tell me that the TB has "has a crack and needs to be replaced". I freak out, coz if that stuff fails, I wont be covered by warranty! Ok, so I decided NOT to do it at the dealership. Today I spent the whole day with a friend of mine and we went ahead and did the whole TB job: The main reason because of what the dealer said, and also because I am almost at 100000KM, so might as well do it and get rid of the TB thing.

Guess what? The old TB looks like a BRAND NEW TB...Absolutely no cracks, no signs of wear, it even has the writings still on the TB very clearly!

While the TB job has cost me about $690 all in all after taxes, dealer would have charged me about $1350 with taxes, for a TB that looks brand new! What a f*cking shame.

Next actions: Going to Service manager, throw the old TB in his face and ask him to show me where EXACTLY is the crack his technician found. Maybe 3 of us did not see it, so maybe his techs there got some super eyes. Then am filling a complaint with Audi Canada asking for a full refund of $700. If that goes no where, am going to court and file a claim against both. To me thats a $65 court fee. I dont mind paying it, but they will learn their lesson. Tired of BS from dealers.

[My OOOO My]

I'm willing to bet the ind shop never replaced the belt, did you see the old belt? How do you know it was replaced?

X2... X2... X2

[ad03avant]

Here is a quote from the service manager at another audi dealer which I sent the pictures to:

"Andrew,

Some of the pictures look like a chunk is missing from the edge of the belt, others look like it is rubbing on the outer edge and other look like the belt is not on the gear fully (possibly causing the rubbing?). Either way based on the pictures I would have to agree with ****** Audi. The other part in questing is the teeth of the belt, whick there are no pictures of."

No need dropping any names just yet.

D

[bigbro]

I'm no ASE mechanic but that belt looks fine like any 4k of use timing belt should to me JMHO. But I will agree that the indy shop probaly used the cheapest timing belt available.


Subscribed just to see the outcome and other oppinions.

[bigbro]

*free bump*
Does anyone that is used to changing timing belts know if this belt would be considered worn or on the verge of breaking by the look of it? I'm curious myself.

[passatkid]

Looks fine to me, Look alot better then the one that I removed off a car with 60k, there will be cracking perpendicular to the direction of travel when the belts get old. Also the belt usually isn't the issue, its the roller or tensioner that fail and take the belt out(water pump failure will too)

[ad03avant]

Today I got some more info from the indy shop. Here are two belt pictures which from a car that the dealer just replaced the belt on 300 miles ago. The belt is also a bit off center as mine is...





Additionally - here are 3 pictures from a belt taken off a vehicle with 60,000 miles. They look significantly more worn to me.







I will be meeting the mechanic from the indy shop on Saturday to examine my belt. We are going to do it in the parking lot of the dealership so that if he determines that there is not exceptional wear we can meet with the audi service advisor and get to the bottom of this issue.

Hope you enjoy the pictures. Sorry if your sick of looking at belts. Im starting to be pretty sick of belts myself...

D

[bigbro]

Please keep us updated. It's almost time for me to change my belt and curious of the outcome. Also the 60k belt kinda looks fine to me too IMO but it does look similar to the belt you took a pic of with 4k. Anyway hope you get this sorted out good luck .

[lookaught]

It honestly look alright to me, it's not like it went on 100 miles ago and all the sudden there is horrific wear. Why did the dealer even check the TB? that seems like an odd cover to remove without reason.

In the past I have seen dealers recommend some (IMO) atrocious maintenance for reasons that I can only classify as financially motivated. Seriously if you want to have a good laugh go and sit by the service desk at your dealer and listed to them make calls to clients. Timing belts, brakes, tires, even freaking air filters... and then they quote the prices which make you shake your head in disgust. "yes your car has 60,000 miles and it's reaaally getting up there... you should definitely replace the timing belt and all the brake pads and rotors.... for $3,500." I nearly lol'd in my chair.

Last winter VW tried to charge my girlfriend an hour of labor to change the side turn indicator in her 02 Passat (in the fender by the door). I actually laughed at the service rep over the phone, then went to pick up the car, told him he was a complete ass to his face, bought the part and changed it in under 30 seconds with no tools in near pitch black darkness in January (freezing cold). Its very upsetting to think of how many customers who TRUST the dealer would just say "go ahead, it needs to be done" and VW collects $100 for 30 seconds of work. Its a FUCKING SCAM.

Sorry for the rant. IMO it looks alright and I would not replace it unless the indie mechanic offers to do so (though I dont think he will). Keep an eye on it and follow up if it looks much worse. My car has about 4,300 on it's new belt, I'll see if I can get a pic when I get home on Sunday from a wedding for comparison.

[lookaught]

And as I was reading my own post for spelling errors it just occured to me... Of course the other dealer would recommend replacing the belt. CYA! If they said its ok, and then it breaks after even 40,000 miles then you could come back and blame them for telling you its fine for the normal interval of 60,000 or 75,000 miles. It does not surprise me in the least.

Im feeling very cynical today.

[Rico750]

X2... X2... X2

maybe they replaced the alternator belt and was the shop a bunch of noobs..

screw all the noob mechanics + stealerships

[AudiA4_20T]

that belt looks fine to me.

FYI the belt never usually snaps, its the waterpump or tensioner that fail. I wouldn't worry about the belt if I were u

[LampyB]

I really can't see a line in the middle that's ready to crack on your belt, nor can I see the XXmm marks in the edge. I see the faded writing, so it's definitely a new belt.

Only thing I've noticed is that on an older belt you can see the teeth marks wearing through onto the top side of the belt. You can see this happening on your belt. My '04 has 49K miles and the teeth mark wear looks similar to yours. Those notches do concern me because 30K miles down the road if the belt breaks at that very point because there's the slightest nick, then you're screwed.

I'm going to assume the teeth marks on your belt are worn through because the shop used a cheapo belt. I'd take Audi's side and have the belt replaced, but this time make sure you buy the part yourself and don't skimp out on price.