K04 and Torque Converter

[davidj_22209]

Well, what do you know. Problems don't come alone do they?
Just as my torque converter was giving me trouble, my turbo started whine. -

- Would I save money on labor if I did them at the same time?
I have saved enough for a torque converter, but not for k04s.

- How long do you guys think I can drive with a stuck off torque converter?
So far the only noticable difference is the occasional thump and bad mpg. Upshifts and downshifts are rough it seems.

- Anyone have any experience with hybrid k04/03s. As I understand, you don't have to replace many things with hybrids unlike k04s.

I did STFA a lot about this. Just wanted to hear what you guys have to say.

cheers

[S4_NE]

here is what i run and it may help you out,
K04's on an EPL tune, with a 2 bennett TQ convertor with GIAC trans software and the tip recode, my trans shift nice if i drive here normaly, if I run her hard and get into boost she shifts a lil harder and you can feel the shifts, on a red line shift from 2 to 3rd i get a lil slip but that is about it if i drive it semi hard she is fine, I am putting down over 400 LBS of TQ at the wheels. hope thsi helps, evey car will be a lil different, IMO get am upgraded TQ convertor.

[oneohone]

Hmmm, I'm buying a tip stage 3 and was wondering the same. You guys think the TQ converter will be fine?

[S4_NE]

was it updated or is it stock? either way it will work untill it lets go it is a german car lol

[oneohone]

Its a stock TQ converter. I just hope it can put up with the power.

[S4_NE]

you should be ok if you just drive the car hard once in awile, but I would not beat the sh%t of it, just ride it out an see how long it go's, alos have you serviced the trany, mine was done during my K04 upgrade wile the trany was out,

[FrimmelNoJerz]

Its a stock TQ converter. I just hope it can put up with the power.

no it cant. sorry.

if i were the OP i would take out a small line of credit and address both issue simultaneously. it will greatly reduce the amount of down time and then your mechanic wont have to redo any processes. just my opinion...what do i know.

[Caddy7]

Hello, I'm in the exact same situation, my torque converter is stuck too and I would like to upgrade my turbos at the same time if possible. I was just searching for mere info regarding Hybrid k03/04 when I found this.

For TQ I am leaning towards rebuild mine at this place:
http://aceconverter.com/index.php?ma...products_id=36

1 - So how are the hybrids? Maybe send out the turbos for rebuild to hybrids at the same time?

2 - Do you think it is possible to change turbos from under the car while the transmission is out? Or is it easier/faster to just pull the engine?

[Reich]

It's the lockup seal within t/c that use to fail. You need pressure to engage lockup and an other pressure to unlock L/U. It's the reason you can feel a slipery t/c when you WOT. Upgrate-it with the new seal. A valve body would also be a good idea.

[MacDaddy]

valve body won't do anything, this isn't a 1988 Camaro and the ZF5hp24 line pressure is electronically controlled.

[Reich]

valve body won't do anything, this isn't a 1988 Camaro and the ZF5hp24 line pressure is electronically controlled.

Yeap. But you can help electronics. I can feel way more clamping force when shifting than before. Almost a bang. And this is what i was looking for.
Electronics only plays with PWM (pulse width modulations) via selenoids. not pressure.

[MacDaddy]

sounds more like the transmission can't regulate the pressure properly anymore, it shouldn't bang into gear even with higher pressure.

[FrimmelNoJerz]

Hello, I'm in the exact same situation, my torque converter is stuck too and I would like to upgrade my turbos at the same time if possible. I was just searching for mere info regarding Hybrid k03/04 when I found this.

For TQ I am leaning towards rebuild mine at this place:
http://aceconverter.com/index.php?ma...products_id=36

1 - So how are the hybrids? Maybe send out the turbos for rebuild to hybrids at the same time?

2 - Do you think it is possible to change turbos from under the car while the transmission is out? Or is it easier/faster to just pull the engine?

its easier to pull the engine. k03 hybrids are worth very little power gain and a similar headache to a plain k03. skip it.

[GQ//S4]

no it cant. sorry.

if i were the OP i would take out a small line of credit and address both issue simultaneously. it will greatly reduce the amount of down time and then your mechanic wont have to redo any processes. just my opinion...what do i know.

Funny how my first thought was "where's justin" as soon as I read the op

[Reich]

sounds more like the transmission can't regulate the pressure properly anymore, it shouldn't bang into gear even with higher pressure.

The only way it regulate pressure is by PWM to selenoids which limits the flow to clutchs. The more PWM, the flow to the clutchs only to smooth engagement. By rising pressure tcu does'nt know it and there for higher perssure= higher flow.

[goohead]

valve body won't do anything, this isn't a 1988 Camaro and the ZF5hp24 line pressure is electronically controlled.

NOT TRUE, with out higher line pressure the stock trans will give out, i just posted a thread on this forum w/ pics of burnt out clutch packs on asp stage 3

a valve body stiffens the actuator springs so it builds higher line pressure between shifts

as much as its electronically controlled its still mechanical function

i got my TC built by 517, and it lasted passed my clutch packs so i can vouch for their TC build quality

and what about the zf5hp24? you know our transmission is a zf5hp19

and the tcu doesnt do shitttt

[goohead]

Hello, I'm in the exact same situation, my torque converter is stuck too and I would like to upgrade my turbos at the same time if possible. I was just searching for mere info regarding Hybrid k03/04 when I found this.

For TQ I am leaning towards rebuild mine at this place:
http://aceconverter.com/index.php?ma...products_id=36

1 - So how are the hybrids? Maybe send out the turbos for rebuild to hybrids at the same time?

2 - Do you think it is possible to change turbos from under the car while the transmission is out? Or is it easier/faster to just pull the engine?

just pull your engine its real easy, do in this order

take off bumper
discon cables at front
swing conderser to pass side
take off carrier
undo ac compressor, 3 bolts, undo line mounts, swing to the side
discon ATF lines by hardline under trans
undo wire harness on trans and speed sensor (take out sensor before undo bellhousing bolts)
discon driveshaft
discon shift cable (easier inside the black box under shifter)
discon cv
remove trans and engine mount
discon power steering hose at back
discon ecu cable and pos battery cable
undo the cables at firewall
disc power steering hose by reservior
discon vacuum line going to vacuum reservior

pull engine, obviously drain fluids,

OR

if you have some tall ass jackstands like the 12 ton ones or a lift

put in service mode, undo radiator hoses, and wires mentioned earlier, ac parts, and then take off the brake calipers off the hub, and the tie rod ends, and then the drive shaft and shifter cable, then support the engine and undo the subframe bolts, the 3 strut tower bolts on each side and drop the engine on the subframe,

[MacDaddy]

Your line pressure is limited to what the pump inside the transmission can produce, your not getting any more pressure than stock transmission is when a clutch pack is fully engaged. and the actuator springs only serve to cut off pressure when the solenoid is off.

Increasing the orifice sizes (upgraded valve body) causes the clutch packs to drain and fill much sooner so what your doing is actually detrimental for the transmission because the clutch packs are designed never to be completely disengaged during a gear change (hence why they are so smooth).

for example on a 1 to 2 shift, clutch pack 1 has 100% pressure during the change clutch pack 2 fills with fluid and pressurizes to 50% pressure removing 50% from the first and this is the breaking point for clutch pack one, where it will disengage and sending 100% pressure to clutch pack 2 completing the gear change.

You have 100% pressue to 0 to 100% again, this would explain why you have a BANG. Not sure how that is better...

your transmission failed because of your old fluid, i could tell I could tell because of the filthy AT filter.

S4's use the 5HP24 good to 440ftlbs (read: overkill)
A4's use the 5HP19 which is essentially the same transmission but without as much torque loading ability.

[GunSupplier]

your transmission failed because of your old fluid, i could tell I could tell because of the filthy AT filter.

So, when should us Tiptronic guys be doing a transmission flush? Any specific mileage or anything?

*EDIT*
Check this out from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_5HP24_transmission

Look at the other cars that the 5HP24 is used in. Except for our 2.7T, every single one of them is a V8, there are even some hopped up V8s in there, like the Alpina Z8, S8, S6. I guess Audi foresaw what kind of a beast the 2.7T could become and planned accordingly.

[goohead]

the valve body part is stiffens the springs to reduce the clutch engage and disengage time during gear shift, so there is less wear on them. this i have done myself on serveral at transmissions by putting in rods or spacers, i had mine done with stiffer springs, shift time will be reduced, this is whats done in valve body i had done and what is done on my car currently, along with some passages being ported to allow more flow, there is no increasing the orifice in this ZF valvebody, we are not talking about domestic transmission that have much more aftermarket support,

believe me its not overkill, i kill my e pack, and had scores on my f and c steels w/ only OTS stage 3, with ATF @ no higher 85c logged the whole time i had stage 3, upgraded cooler, new atf, and only 2 month of use

WE DO NOT HAVE A 5HP24 WE HAVE A 5H19FLA, GO LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR TRANSMISSION!!!! SOME SPEC SHEETS ARE WRONG UNLESS YOU HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

ALSO ALL ZF RATING IS IN N/M NOT FT LBS

5HP25 - 420N/M - ~310FT/LBS
5/HP19FLA - MUCH LOWER!!!!

Read
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...udiProgram.pdf
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/threa....phtml#1325265
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1324479.phtml

where are you getting your info from??? cause its all wrong
how much first hand experience do you have with this transmission???? cause it seems you dont know sh!t about these transmission

you need to get some hands on experience before posting bad info that can potientially get people to blow up their transmission

Your line pressure is limited to what the pump inside the transmission can produce, your not getting any more pressure than stock transmission is when a clutch pack is fully engaged. and the actuator springs only serve to cut off pressure when the solenoid is off.

Increasing the orifice sizes (upgraded valve body) causes the clutch packs to drain and fill much sooner so what your doing is actually detrimental for the transmission because the clutch packs are designed never to be completely disengaged during a gear change (hence why they are so smooth).

for example on a 1 to 2 shift, clutch pack 1 has 100% pressure during the change clutch pack 2 fills with fluid and pressurizes to 50% pressure removing 50% from the first and this is the breaking point for clutch pack one, where it will disengage and sending 100% pressure to clutch pack 2 completing the gear change.

You have 100% pressue to 0 to 100% again, this would explain why you have a BANG. Not sure how that is better...

your transmission failed because of your old fluid, i could tell I could tell because of the filthy AT filter.

S4's use the 5HP24 good to 440ftlbs (read: overkill)
A4's use the 5HP19 which is essentially the same transmission but without as much torque loading ability.

[goohead]

pics for you

see the conditions of the steels that have ALOT of hot spots, showing slippage and the conditions of the clutches showing the material lost.

the transmission was FINE before stage 3, no abnormal wear, no clunks, fluid was good, pan filter and magnets all good, i verified this myself











this filter had less than 3k on it, first time change the filter and magnets were in good condition

[AddICTioN]

Has anyone seen the 5HP24 and 5HP19 side by side? Wonder if the 24 would bolt up..

[goohead]

maybe?

here you go bellhousing looks identical

24a




19fla




bellhousing

[Reich]

Hey Goohead. Do you have any idea of what kind of tranny i have? It says 5hp19faq on the two nameplates. What's the difference between fla n faq?

[Reich]

Oh i almost forgot. Was this your E clutch pach that failed?

[MacDaddy]

Look at the other cars that the 5HP24 is used in. Except for our 2.7T, every single one of them is a V8, there are even some hopped up V8s in there, like the Alpina Z8, S8, S6. I guess Audi foresaw what kind of a beast the 2.7T could become and planned accordingly.

I'm actually really glad they did, and i love this transmission, if it wasn't the ZF, I would have turned up my nose at the idea of an automatic audi.

[goohead]

Hey Goohead. Do you have any idea of what kind of tranny i have? It says 5hp19faq on the two nameplates. What's the difference between fla n faq?

its still a 5hp19fla there is just different coding for different years, there is a list of them somewhere i just forgot where to look it up at

also yes its my e pack that failed, controls the 4-5 and 3-4 gear, the rest of them are bands.

the metal is VERY thin and same for the clutch

i would be carefull with your setup around those shiftpoints, i know you are putting some killer # to the ground :)

my car was going to limp mode all the time, which is a software thing, keep us updated on your software for the TCU!!!

[GunSupplier]

I'm actually really glad they did, and i love this transmission, if it wasn't the ZF, I would have turned up my nose at the idea of an automatic audi.

Have you read through what goohead is saying, though? I thought we had the 5HP24 too, but apparently, from the guys with first hand experience, all the S4s ACTUALLY have a slightly modified 5HP19 that can handle ~310 lb/ft of torque.

If you read through some of the threads that goohead posted, they say that on paper we should have had the 5HP24, and sometimes even in logbooks it will say that it's a 5HP24. But in reality, not a single automatic S4 has the 5HP24, all we have is the "strengthened" 5HP19. Apparently the Wikipedia information is wrong. It's truly unfortunate. The 5HP24 would have been a much better choice on Audi's part.

Anyway, what actually causes the Tip to fail at high power levels, apart from the well known problem of the TC seal blowing?

[MacDaddy]

ALSO ALL ZF RATING IS IN N/M NOT FT LBS

5HP25 - 420N/M - ~310FT/LBS
5/HP19FLA - MUCH LOWER!!!![/B]


where are you getting your info from??? cause its all wrong
how much first hand experience do you have with this transmission???? cause it seems you dont know sh!t about these transmission

you need to get some hands on experience before posting bad info that can potientially get people to blow up their transmission

no, it is 440ftlbs, because the zf5hp24 is in the Jaguar XJR that makes 387ftlbs and also in the E53 4.4 X5 which makes 324ftlbs of torque, both vehicles are over your said 310ftlbs.

as far as experience, i rebuilt a 5hp24 from a BMW X5. F-clutch drum failed (lip disintegrated) and damaged the clutch pack at the same time.
I understand fully how the transmission works, to think changing springs on the solenoids and increasing orifice sizes will make this transmission work any better is preposterous, all its doing now is working in a way in which it wasn't intended to work.

asside from it banging into gear and the claims of that transmission site you have nothing to prove your transmission is going to last any longer or perform any better, infact its only going to be a short matter of time until your drum(s) start failing because of the sudden surge of pressure that gets exerted on them.

[Reich]

no, it is 440ftlbs, because the zf5hp24 is in the Jaguar XJR that makes 387ftlbs and also in the E53 4.4 X5 which makes 324ftlbs of torque, both vehicles are over your said 310ftlbs.

as far as experience, i rebuilt a 5hp24 from a BMW X5. F-clutch drum failed (lip disintegrated) and damaged the clutch pack at the same time.
I understand fully how the transmission works, to think changing springs on the solenoids and increasing orifice sizes will make this transmission work any better is preposterous, all its doing now is working in a way in which it wasn't intended to work.

asside from it banging into gear and the claims of that transmission site you have nothing to prove your transmission is going to last any longer or perform any better, infact its only going to be a short matter of time until your drum(s) start failing because of the sudden surge of pressure that gets exerted on them.

Only the 4th gear that bang which is the clutch pack that use to fail b/c of slip. Good to know that there is an other guy that knows tranny. I will soon become voith trainer. Believe me voith has a more sofisticated tranny than we have. Those tranny have no t/c in front only a differntial converter in center. This is built to last. The guy's at ipt tolt me that it would do that thing in 4th they rise more pressure to that particuler clutch pack. I also begin to lift throtle between 3n4 to ease engagement and it hold well my 354 whp for now. We shall see after tranny recode from unitronic and 450 whp.

[goohead]

You sir are an idiot. please tell the thousands of performance transmission builders your opinion and prove it to yourself do whatever you want, tell them how to increase the holding capacity of any auto transmission, how to prolong its life, how to shorten the delay between shifts. do what you want, i hope you dont break anything, from what you state here its easy to tell you have no experience and just try to prove your point with misinformation. whatever floats your boat



and for your 5hp24, which we dont even have in our car, you do realize there are different models right?

here is the ZF spec sheet
http://pok.atw.hu/index_elemei/home_...rtsCatalog.pdf

your 1998 jaguar supercharged xjr - uses W5A580

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/30/98301634.html
http://www.lemonlaws.info/Bulletin-D...aspx?id=497923

even the 4.4 using the 5hp24 is risky, go read a bimmer forum and see how many people have problems with the 5hp24, then again what ever you want to think, its your car not mine


check on top of page 3. what does it say? 420nm? straight from ZF, the company that builds them? yeah ok have a nice day, im done

no, it is 440ftlbs, because the zf5hp24 is in the Jaguar XJR that makes 387ftlbs and also in the E53 4.4 X5 which makes 324ftlbs of torque, both vehicles are over your said 310ftlbs.

as far as experience, i rebuilt a 5hp24 from a BMW X5. F-clutch drum failed (lip disintegrated) and damaged the clutch pack at the same time.
I understand fully how the transmission works, to think changing springs on the solenoids and increasing orifice sizes will make this transmission work any better is preposterous, all its doing now is working in a way in which it wasn't intended to work.

asside from it banging into gear and the claims of that transmission site you have nothing to prove your transmission is going to last any longer or perform any better, infact its only going to be a short matter of time until your drum(s) start failing because of the sudden surge of pressure that gets exerted on them.

[Reich]

You sir are an idiot. please tell the thousands of performance transmission builders your opinion and prove it to yourself do whatever you want, tell them how to increase the holding capacity of any auto transmission, how to prolong its life, how to shorten the delay between shifts. do what you want, i hope you dont break anything, from what you state here its easy to tell you have no experience and just try to prove your point with misinformation. whatever floats your boat



and for your 5hp24, which we dont even have in our car, you do realize there are different models right?

here is the ZF spec sheet
http://pok.atw.hu/index_elemei/home_...rtsCatalog.pdf

your 1998 jaguar supercharged xjr - uses W5A580

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/30/98301634.html
http://www.lemonlaws.info/Bulletin-D...aspx?id=497923

even the 4.4 using the 5hp24 is risky, go read a bimmer forum and see how many people have problems with the 5hp24, then again what ever you want to think, its your car not mine


check on top of page 3. what does it say? 420nm? straight from ZF, the company that builds them? yeah ok have a nice day, im done

Wow Goohead. Your a good finder. Where did you find all this info? I mean you must have search a lot.

[goohead]

i have links to all the zf spec off hand as i was trying to put in a 5hp24, but after some thought and not finding a donor 24, reading all the issues with them in the bimmer forums, i just decided to build the 19, i researched the 24 and 19 a while ago

took 2 seconds to find the other info

whatever, just trying to relay the info, i had my transmission blow up and was trying to save other people from their transmission from blowing up.

i would recommend building up the TIP transmission if you want power, but to each's own. im only worried about my car at the end of the day

[Reich]

i have links to all the zf spec off hand as i was trying to put in a 5hp24, but after some thought and not finding a donor 24, reading all the issues with them in the bimmer forums, i just decided to build the 19, i researched the 24 and 19 a while ago

took 2 seconds to find the other info

whatever, just trying to relay the info, i had my transmission blow up and was trying to save other people from their transmission from blowing up.

i would recommend building up the TIP transmission if you want power, but to each's own. im only worried about my car at the end of the day

Yeah your right. Is it true that only clutch packs is the issue on them. This is what ipt told me. They said that will never see BLOW tip like gears all over pavement only clutch pach issue. After speeking a lot with them. I decide to only do t/c + v/b since i only have 63k miles on her and do all clutch when they gona die.

[goohead]

good luck on your project, its nice to see some innovate on new products instead of the same overpriced oem stuff. always been a fan of bullseye

bw ett ftw :)

[MacDaddy]

call me whatever you want, Jag only used that transmission for the 1998 year and subsequently dropped it because it wasn't very good, and BMW's transmission issues all steamed from "lifetime fluid" hence why BMW dosn't do lifetime fluid anymore, pan services are now part of warranty maintenance.

the only explanation i can think of for the spec sheet is its is accidentally written in NM instead of ftlbs. I say that because in the previous XJR jag used an overkill transmission, so it makes no sense that they would suddenly go cheap on the tranny especially when they have been trying to shake the unreliable reputation they incurred from the series 1 2 and 3 Jags since 1989 with the XJ40 chassis.

and BMW, well, i wouldn't exactly call them stingy with the engineering either, they have won lots of "engine of the year awards" and actually had ZF develop the 6 speed transmission for them after the 4.6 X5's would blow up the 5hp24's on the ring during testing.

[RxDlr]

so what you're saying in essence is that if you're going to upgrade the power it's stupid to only upgrade the tc without upgrading the tranny first, correct?

[70 eliminator]

bump for goohead update to archive his experiance with the "built zf5hp19" it failed i think and want his info or other threads to b e cross linked

[DRA4]

I think is cheaper doing a 6 speed swap than rebuilding the tip tranny plus you can get way more power out of those K04's.

[topquarkpc]

I think is cheaper doing a 6 speed swap than rebuilding the tip tranny plus you can get way more power out of those K04's.

couldn't agree more...
My tip is on its way out and I've slowly been collecting parts to do the exact thing.
Doing FT stage 3, TB job, fueling, clutch, & etc...etc...etc...