Timing belt will NOT tension

**AAAA** · 08-03-2008 08:05 PM

Went stage 3 recently, finished right before Waterfest (7/19). Did the complete timing belt job from ECS with cam seals, new belt, tensioner, tensioner pulley, water pump, etc. Ran fine to waterfest during break-in.

About a week later, it starts making noises that sound like its coming from the heads. We take timing belt cover off and the belt has some slack in it. We contemplate whether it needs manual tensioning because its accentric, or if its a faulty tensioner. We decide to manual tighten the tensioner roller and see if its ok. It works for about 2hours, and about 6 pulls, then it makes the noise again.

So I ordered a new tensioner. We put it on last night, it works for a few pulls, then I blow a hose off :banghead: . When I stop to see what hose it is, its making the noise AGAIN. So I take the car apart again tonight and the belt is loose as hell. What are we doing wrong? We've manually tensioned it, auto tensioned it with a new tensioner, and still the same result.

It doesn't look like its skipping a tooth, but when you hand crank it you can tell it jumps at a certain point, just not to the next tooth. There is no evidence (the way its running, idling, noises) that indicate any bent valves or anything, so I think its just tight enough to where it won't mess up timing. Any thoughts? I'm exhausted from taking the car apart and putting it back together 4 times.

**Affinitive** · 08-03-2008 08:23 PM

I'm kinda confussed. What do you mean manual tension??? Are you referring to to aftermarket timing belt parts???

I'm also confused because even with the hydraulic tensioner fully compressed, the belt should still be pretty snug. Whenever I do the timing belts, the belts are still pretty tight to slip onto the pulleys before pulling the pin out of the tensioner.
I would varify that all the parts are correct. Correct belt, tensioner pulley and idler pulley etc..........

C

**GetAwayFromMe** · 08-03-2008 08:29 PM

After you tension it do you tighten the tensioner bolt? Did you also replace your hydraulic tensioner? What you are doing is really stupid and hope you don't mess up your motor.

**AAAA** · 08-03-2008 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by GetAwayFromMe

After you tension it do you tighten the tensioner bolt? Did you also replace your hydraulic tensioner? What you are doing is really stupid and hope you don't mess up your motor.

ok, easy there killer. I'm asking questions to learn what i'm doing wrong so please don't call me stupid. I replaced everything, as stated, including the tensioner. by manually tensioning, i mean tightening the tensioner roller bolt. From what I've understood from sources, with accentric tensioners, you have to manually tension after pulling the pin out. What is the exact order of operations in my case with the belt being on already and all. at this point, with talking to many car savvy people, i have a suspicion that i may have been sent the wrong belt from ecs

**02alltoad** · 08-03-2008 10:28 PM

did you losen the cam gears the first time?

**AAAA** · 08-03-2008 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by 02alltoad

did you losen the cam gears the first time?

we had to take them off to do the cam seals, so yes

**hyperlight944** · 08-04-2008 12:26 AM

just curious but did you pull out the pin on the hydraulic tensioner? alot of times the belt is very tight and seems like you pulled the pin and you forgot ... who knows check it
cheers

--daniel

**GetAwayFromMe** · 08-04-2008 01:48 AM

Sorry if i came out to harsh. But did you have the cam gears loose when you did this? If not you can have a misalighned timing a tooth or so. If i remember correct you tension the belt with an allen tool and than you tighten the middle bolt and then you pull the pin.

OT It's kinda hard typing and remembering when you had a few drinks :)

**Affinitive** · 08-04-2008 01:49 AM

The most likely and only real possible problem would be having the incorrect belt (as in slightly too big of a belt).

Not to undermine anyone's knowledge or abilities, but just to varify correct instalation.

Install all the belt hardware and tighten to spec. With the cam sprockets loose, just barely loose enough to spin with slight wiggle, cam alignment bar and crank pin installed, install the belt lining it up on the front face of all the pulleys. Then pull the pin on the hydraulic damper/tensioner. At this point it will extend slightly. Then using the proper socket cap driver and torque wrench, you set the pretension on the belt. (most peolpe will just use a 8mm allen wrench to give it slight nudge since the torque spec is hardly nothing anyways). At this point the tensioner has extended just a slight bit more but still only about 1/4 - 1/3 of it's full possible travel/extension. THEN you tighten the cam sprockets to spec. This is the only way to set the belt timing to insure it won't be off by 2 - 3 degrees. This way when you get 60K on the belt and it strectches out aloowing the tensioner to extend to it's maximum, the cam timing (Cam Deviation) will only go out by a couple degrees instead of 5 - 6. (BTW, timing belt replacements will improve performance and idle quality).
Though I would like to note that even when the belts get old and stretched out to a point where the tensioner extends to the max, they still don't end up being loose enough to slap on the covers. I certainly won't start with the childish name calling, but you really are counting your blessing to be driving with a belt so loose that it's slapping on the covers. I would suspect the belt to have a couple of extra teeth on it (of course being the wrong belt). and not to pour salt on an open wound, you should have caught this before ever getting together the first time. Most likely the timing belt hardware is correct as it would be pretty much impossible to install the wrong parts and get them to work. Also wana make sure to replace the lever as well. The tips of the lever will get small wear spots/dimples on them. It would also be impossible to leave the pin in the tensioner as you wouldn't be able to reinstall the lower cover with that pin sticking out sa far as it does.

Also another side note for future reference. Sometimes you'll take belt covers off to find the belt loose between some of the sprockets and the tensioner partially compressed. That's because sometimes the engine will settle so that the passenger side cam sprocket will have tensioner on it form the valve srings and lifters wanting to keep turning the srocket clockwise. Over the course of a few hours, that tension will slowly compress the tensioner and the passenger side sprocket will settle clockwise slightly. Especially so if the driver side settles the same way. not a concern though as the tensioner will just extend again as soon as you crank the engine over.

Kinda long winded here

C

**AAAA** · 08-04-2008 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Affinitive

The most likely and only real possible problem would be having the incorrect belt (as in slightly too big of a belt).

Not to undermine anyone's knowledge or abilities, but just to varify correct instalation.

Install all the belt hardware and tighten to spec. With the cam sprockets loose, just barely loose enough to spin with slight wiggle, cam alignment bar and crank pin installed, install the belt lining it up on the front face of all the pulleys. Then pull the pin on the hydraulic damper/tensioner. At this point it will extend slightly. Then using the proper socket cap driver and torque wrench, you set the pretension on the belt. (most peolpe will just use a 8mm allen wrench to give it slight nudge since the torque spec is hardly nothing anyways). At this point the tensioner has extended just a slight bit more but still only about 1/4 - 1/3 of it's full possible travel/extension. THEN you tighten the cam sprockets to spec. This is the only way to set the belt timing to insure it won't be off by 2 - 3 degrees. This way when you get 60K on the belt and it strectches out aloowing the tensioner to extend to it's maximum, the cam timing (Cam Deviation) will only go out by a couple degrees instead of 5 - 6. (BTW, timing belt replacements will improve performance and idle quality).
Though I would like to note that even when the belts get old and stretched out to a point where the tensioner extends to the max, they still don't end up being loose enough to slap on the covers. I certainly won't start with the childish name calling, but you really are counting your blessing to be driving with a belt so loose that it's slapping on the covers. I would suspect the belt to have a couple of extra teeth on it (of course being the wrong belt). and not to pour salt on an open wound, you should have caught this before ever getting together the first time. Most likely the timing belt hardware is correct as it would be pretty much impossible to install the wrong parts and get them to work. Also wana make sure to replace the lever as well. The tips of the lever will get small wear spots/dimples on them. It would also be impossible to leave the pin in the tensioner as you wouldn't be able to reinstall the lower cover with that pin sticking out sa far as it does.

Also another side note for future reference. Sometimes you'll take belt covers off to find the belt loose between some of the sprockets and the tensioner partially compressed. That's because sometimes the engine will settle so that the passenger side cam sprocket will have tensioner on it form the valve srings and lifters wanting to keep turning the srocket clockwise. Over the course of a few hours, that tension will slowly compress the tensioner and the passenger side sprocket will settle clockwise slightly. Especially so if the driver side settles the same way. not a concern though as the tensioner will just extend again as soon as you crank the engine over.

Kinda long winded here

C

thanks alot man. that was very informative. So either i have the wrong belt, which i'm going to get a new one today anyway due to the rubbing against parts, or i'm off a few degrees timing, which is also very likely. i have a timing belt "expert" for these cars coming over tonight, so hopefully we'll figure it out and i'll update you guys. thanks alot

**GetAwayFromMe** · 08-04-2008 04:29 PM

I have seen people install the roller backwards and cause the belt to rub on parts and make the noise that you described. If you installed a new roller take a peak and see if it's good.