Engine Break In Question... Bad to use Meth?

[GetBoosted84]

I need some advice on breaking my engine after the new rings & clutch go into my engine next weekend. I have been reading and there are basically two ways to break in an engine... the soft way and the hard way.

The soft way:

Baby the car for approx. 500 miles then slowly work up to getting into boost and go from there.

The hard (motoman) way:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Run the crap out of the engine. I'm not too sure I want to try this way since I'm breaking in a clutch too.

Anyway. I am thinking that I should go with the soft method of breaking in my engine and disable my methanol/water spray system until after the break in period.

What do you guys think?

P.S. - I searched but couldn't find anything on the meth question. Found very conflicting arguments on the soft versus hard break in methods though.

[Poopie]

I do a mix of the two. Fill with detergent free oil and take it easy the first 30-50 miles to seat the rings. Then oil change still with detergent free. then drive it normally varying the RPM range with a lot of engine breaking. Keep the boost on the lower side. Then another oil change at 400-500 mile mark to full synthetic. Then start whooping on it.

[dingguhlbary]

i really like the logic behind the "run the crap out of the car" method. it just makes sense. but i'd be more inclined to do it with a new car with a warranty, not necessarily a car that i rebuilt.

[GetBoosted84]

I do a mix of the two. Fill with detergent free oil and take it easy the first 30-50 miles to seat the rings. Then oil change still with detergent free. then drive it normally varying the RPM range with a lot of engine breaking. Keep the boost on the lower side. Then another oil change at 400-500 mile mark to full synthetic. Then start whooping on it.

I like the idea to vary between the two. That sounds safer in my mind.

When you say detergent free oil are you referring to normal non-synthetic oil thats not for high mileage cars? I'll have to pick some of that up because I only have Castrol Full Synthetic 5W-40 and conventional oil but that is 5W-30.

What's your recommendation?

i really like the logic behind the "run the crap out of the car" method. it just makes sense. but i'd be more inclined to do it with a new car with a warranty, not necessarily a car that i rebuilt.

Yeah I like it too but with putting a new clutch in, I'm afraid what might be good for the rings may not be so good for the clutch material.

[317ssayzarc]

just beat the fuck outta it... my car had great compression by mile 3 and it was driven on the trailer, then off the trailer and down the drag strip

[GetBoosted84]

just beat the fuck outta it... my car had great compression by mile 3 and it was driven on the trailer, then off the trailer and down the drag strip

Seriously? My clutch would hate me for that.

[dougyfresh]

Read this:
http://www.audigeeks.com/forums/inde...14621#msg14621


and Read my post here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...29#post2751029


That should answer your questions.

Run it with Meth? WHY? You don't need the crazy timing advance you'll get with having Meth. You just need a good running engine to break the rings in. Leave the Meth turned off.

[317ssayzarc]

Seriously? My clutch would hate me for that.

i just rolled out of the gates easy (too easy, i actually stalled it lol), then went down the strip and shifted slowly... your clutch wont mind it

[GetBoosted84]

Read this:
http://www.audigeeks.com/forums/inde...14621#msg14621


and Read my post here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...29#post2751029


That should answer your questions.

Run it with Meth? WHY? You don't need the crazy timing advance you'll get with having Meth. You just need a good running engine to break the rings in. Leave the Meth turned off.

Thank you for the links. I think I am going to try that and go easy on my shifts and so some low rpm pulls in 5th gear (thanks Mike-2ptzero) to get the clutch broken in also.

As far as the meth, I was asking because my water/meth setup automatically sprays so I wanted to know if I should disengage it. I think I will though just to be on the safe side.

I think the meth/water removing all the carbon buildup in my engine is partly to blame for my less than optimal compression currently. Not really a bad thing though, the compression loss was masked by my carbon filled motor.

i just rolled out of the gates easy (too easy, i actually stalled it lol), then went down the strip and shifted slowly... your clutch wont mind it

lol, that's awesome.


Thanks for helping me out with this. I want to make sure my "investment" in the car is well worth it and I don't screw anything up in the process.

[bassed]

Chris do the first 50 with Dino Oil, seat the rings, run WG only beat the snot out of it but do so doing hill pulls not flat land pulls. It's alla bout how you load the engine that's being rebuilt. You are already heat cycled etc... It's not a new motor;)

[TQMB5]

what clutch do you have? sb stage five dont need to be broken in...

[GetBoosted84]

Chris do the first 50 with Dino Oil, seat the rings, run WG only beat the snot out of it but do so doing hill pulls not flat land pulls. It's alla bout how you load the engine that's being rebuilt. You are already heat cycled etc... It's not a new motor;)

Ok I can do that. I'll run the stock program and dial back the boost machine on my car since I can't really play with the wastegate spring in the k04. Should run a max of 11-12 psi but I will not hit that during the break in process.

[GetBoosted84]

what clutch do you have? sb stage five dont need to be broken in...

I'm putting in a Southbend FE Stage 5 clutch with a 15lb lwfw.

I was told from mike-2ptzero to take it easy on the clutch for the first few miles. Do city driving and also do low rpm 5th gear pulls. And no launches

[onemoremile]

Don't beat on it but it does need some cylinder pressure to seat the rings. 5-10 psi is perfect.

FWIW, every engine Porsche builds is dyno tested at WOT the day it is born. They do some break in (I don't know how much) beforehand but they do run it hard on it's birthday.

Found some more Porsche info:

In manufacture all engines undergo several minutes of full redline operation as part of testing and quality control.
The manual says to keep revs under 4000 for the first 1000 miles. My dealer told me to ignore that and to keep revs under 5000rpm for the first 500 miles and then rev away to my heart's content. Opinion seems to favor sticking to the 4500-5000 'limit' for the first 500 miles or so, edging up to 5,500 until around 900-1000 miles and then going for it. It's important during the break in period to vary speed and revs to allow a "rounded" break in. Some have also suggested a rather early oil change at around 3,000 miles to get rid of any break in contaminates.

I would change the oil at about 50-100 miles and then again at 500 and then switch to full synthetic at 1000. Most of the wear debris will be generated very early on so the first change is important. This is how the engine on my old 94 Jetta VR6 was broken in and that thing was an autocross star and track junkie with over 262,000 miles on the clock. Without ever having done any internal engine work other than changing the timing chain guides the car ran very well until the girl I sold it to ditched it at 299,900 miles. This is also the same procedure used on the 01 S4 which now has over 210k miles. This is also how my rebuild was treated a couple years ago and all is well.

[onemoremile]

I'm putting in a Southbend FE Stage 5 clutch with a 15lb lwfw.

I was told from mike-2ptzero to take it easy on the clutch for the first few miles. Do city driving and also do low rpm 5th gear pulls. And no launches

A low rpm 5th gear pull might be good for a clutch but it is hell on the engine. No way I would do that to a new engine. You do need stop and go driving with varying speed and revs and the SB5 won't take long at all to break in.

[GetBoosted84]

Ok I think I am going to skip out on the 5th gear low rpm pulls for a little while then until I can ensure that that rings are properly seated after about 50-100 miles.

He told me to use the low rpm 5th gear pulls to make sure the clutch isn't slipping because it's easier to tell when you do that.

[onemoremile]

There are two great ways to tell if a clutch is slipping. One is a low rev fifth gear pull. We might need 3000 or more revs since we've got no low end torque. The other method is to put the front against a tree put it in fifth and let the clutch out slowly. Where it stalls lets you know the condition of your clutch. This is more of a pickup truck thing since they have real bumpers.

[dougyfresh]

I would change the oil at about 50-100 miles and then again at 500 and then switch to full synthetic at 1000. Most of the wear debris will be generated very early on so the first change is important. This is how the engine on my old 94 Jetta VR6 was broken in and that thing was an autocross star and track junkie with over 262,000 miles on the clock. Without ever having done any internal engine work other than changing the timing chain guides the car ran very well until the girl I sold it to ditched it at 299,900 miles. This is also the same procedure used on the 01 S4 which now has over 210k miles. This is also how my rebuild was treated a couple years ago and all is well.

You'll see the metal in the first oil change (which is a good thing). That first change is critical! 30-50 miles. NO more.

[GetBoosted84]

There are two great ways to tell if a clutch is slipping. One is a low rev fifth gear pull. We might need 3000 or more revs since we've got no low end torque. The other method is to put the front against a tree put it in fifth and let the clutch out slowly. Where it stalls lets you know the condition of your clutch. This is more of a pickup truck thing since they have real bumpers.

lol, I like the first method better. I really like my bumper.

You'll see the metal in the first oil change (which is a good thing). That first change is critical! 30-50 miles. NO more.

30-50 miles it is. I don't want to have those metal shavings floating around in there for too long.

[dougyfresh]

I changed mine at mile 33, 180something, 1300something and switching to synthetic around 2100. Those intervals were based upon timing. I had a bunch of mtb bike races inbetween so I couldn't control mileage as closely as I wanted to, except for the first 200miles.

Definitely saw tiny metal particals in the 33mile change (That's the rings wearing in on the cylinder walls forming the proper seal you want). All changes thereafter looked spotless.

I used Mahle filters and changed the oil filter everytime. I also used Castrol GTX 5w30 dino oil for the first 2000miles. I am now in the process of switching over to Total (Elf) Quartz INEO MC3 5W30 synthetic. Found a good deal on the Total oil from autohausaz.com

[onemoremile]

You'll see the metal in the first oil change (which is a good thing). That first change is critical! 30-50 miles. NO more.

I think I did one earlier on the a4. It has been too long to remember. I know I ran a few sumps full of the cheap stuff before switching out to Mobil and Elf.



I don't know of many ways to show the results of proper break-in and aftercare but this should do. Hell yeah it is a real picture. It was the only one of the half dozen taken that wasn't blurry. The last pic in the series was nearly 140 but it was really poor quality. That is a stock engine with nothing but a Neuspeed chip (maybe 175 hp) and it is just West of Vail headed into the pass so it was about a mile of elevation.

[andyrew]

I agree with everyone who has said you need to load the engine. I would definitely get some hills going if you have them near you.
When I rebuilt the engine in my 914 (it was a v8) I used the brakes to load the engine, and did a variety of different loads and RPM bands working my way up to being hard on the brakes in 3rd on full throttle from idle all the way to redline.. This was in the first 10 miles. After that I beat on the engine.

[onemoremile]

Forgot to mention - do not use meth for at least the first 50-100 miles. You won't be pushing enough boost or timing to warrant it anyway but the big problem is with washing the cylinder walls down. That can reduce or remove the oil film and cause some problems you just don't want to deal with. Once you do fire up the meth system use only what you need. Too much is a bad thing. Although we haven't seen it here I have seen pictures of STi and Evo bores that are so scuffed they look like they had been run without oil. That removes material from both the rings and bore (depending on the hardness of the respective materials) which increases the gap which reduces compression which leads to a downward spiral of wrenching, drinking, and further debauchery.

[GetBoosted84]

Ok, I'm going to skip the meth for a while to make sure I don't screw anything up.

Onemoremile, are you saying that running meth could potentially be a bad thing to run daily also? Currently that's how mine is set up. Once my MAF hits a certian voltage, I start spraying water and meth into the intake stream.

[onemoremile]

A little meth and water are incredible since the mixture is vaporized and reduces combustion temps and increases cylinder pressure. Too much and it doesn't all vaporize and it washes down the cylinder walls with water and alcohol which reduces lubricity.

There are two really basic ways to tune WMI. One is to turn it up until you lose power and then turn it back down slightly. This can cause the wash down problem. The other way is to gradually turn it up until it does what you want. This is much safer for a daily driver with longevity in mind. It should also get you better gas mileage although that isn't always true since it really comes down to how everything is tuned.


Here is a great resource. It contains all sort of real world results, testing, and experiences on 4 cylinder turbo engines. The best and worst are in there.

[GetBoosted84]

A little meth and water are incredible since the mixture is vaporized and reduces combustion temps and increases cylinder pressure. Too much and it doesn't all vaporize and it washes down the cylinder walls with water and alcohol which reduces lubricity.

There are two really basic ways to tune WMI. One is to turn it up until you lose power and then turn it back down slightly. This can cause the wash down problem. The other way is to gradually turn it up until it does what you want. This is much safer for a daily driver with longevity in mind. It should also get you better gas mileage although that isn't always true since it really comes down to how everything is tuned.


Here is a great resource. It contains all sort of real world results, testing, and experiences on 4 cylinder turbo engines. The best and worst are in there.

Ok I got it. Thank you very much for your input on this. I think I am going to dial back the point that I am spraying at just to make sure it doesn't engage too early.

I think the 175ml right after the intercooler and the 60ml right before the throttle body are correctly sized though since Alex @ USRT helped me out at waterfest and calculated what I would need.