StopTech stainless steel brake line failure . . .

[Mark]

Brakes are one of those things in cars that we just expect to work . . .

We expect that when you touch the pedal your going to slow down. We improve our brake system so we get better pedal feel, less fade, etc.

We expect that parts designed for semi-racing applications to work, and work better then OEM parts.

What we don't expect when applying the brakes is hearing a popping noise, followed by our foot going to the floor, then an oh shiet moment . . . look at that . . . I'm not stopping . . . not at all . . . holy shiet . . . I'm going to crash. I'm lucky I suppose, my story isn't so bad . . . this is because I happened to be pulling into my parking lot at a slow speed and just bumped the front end of my car on a telephone pole. No damage, good deal . . . but WTF.

So, I look at the front wheel well. Oh yeah, look at that brake fluid all over the place. I proceed to then take the wheel off to see what the hell is going on. It's one of a few things, the hard-line failed, the stainless lines failed, or the caliper failed. Perhaps the line got hit by a stick or something along those lines and then failed.

Well, as it turns out . . . the stainless line failed miserably. Not because of abuse, not because it was hit and damaged . . . but because it was used. Every time we turn our front wheels the line moves . . . thus the reason why it's flexible. So when turning or having the suspension go up and down it will move with the caliper. The line fatigued due to usage . . .

SO . . . I call Stop-Tech in Compton, CA . . . 310 933 1100 . . .

ST: Hello, how may I direct your call . . .
ME: I've had a stainless brake line failure . . .
ST: Let me redirect you . . .

ST: What seems to be the problem?
ME: I've had a rupture in one of your stainless brake lines:
ST: Excuss me . . . ? What do you mean you've had a failure in a line?
ME: The line fatigued and failed at the junction to the caliper assembly . . .
ST: How'd that happen? Doesn't seem likely.
ME: From turning the wheel a few thousand times I suppose.
ST: Where did you get the lines?
ME: Not really sure, its been a while . . . from a dealer of yours on the internet.
ST: OK, Where do you live?
ME: Pennsylvania.
ST: Oh . . . our products aren't meant to be used in that environment.
ME: WHAT?
ST: Our products are RACE products . .. and the harsh enviroment of the winter and salt you get there in PA isn't good for the lines.
ME: OH REALLY? Let me get this straight . . . these are DOT approved lines correct?
ST: Yes they are . . .
ME: So . . . why are then DOT approved if they aren't meant to be used in salt and winter environments?
ST: Let me get your information . . . name?
ME: Give information, telephone, etc.
ST: We'll have someone contact you in the morning regarding this.
ME: Wait . . . is this product warrentied?
ST: No, they are race products with no warranty. It says so on your package.
ME: These lines are over 3 years old . . . I threw that away years ago.
ST: Oh, I see.
ME: So what you are telling me . . . is that I have to replace these myself out of pocket for a failed product on your end . . . do you understand how important these lines are?
ST: Yes I do . . .
ME: OK . . . so why are you contacting me in the morning?
ST: We are interested in the failure . . .
ME: Oh, I see . . .
ST: Tomorrow then . . . click.


SO . . . how's that. DOT approval . . . WTF does that mean if they can't withstand salt and winter weather . . . RACE products . . . you would think that race products would be built to higher standards? And they'll get back to me to do some R&D questions . . .

I guess the real question is . . . why do we buy products that are supposed to be better then OEM and really aren't?

Also . . . I've had a brake failure before . . . in that case the front right. The brake partitioning valve in a 1987 Jeep Cherokee still gave me rear brakes, no front, but I still could stop. This car, a 2002 Audi, had no brakes what-so-ever. Kinda strange.

here are some craptacular pictures . . . the line is really out of focus but you get the idea.









really of of focus . . .


Still have yet to take it out . . . ran out of light. Ended up stripping the aluminum flange nut on the hard line . . . with the proper flange wrenches as well. Have to get a new hard line from Audi now too ontop on a new set of stainless lines.


I'll have more pictures tomorrow . . . and the rest of the conversation. I hope that they will acknowledge a product failure . . . perhaps send me some new lines . . . probably not though. The guy on the phone really wasn't interested in hearing anything I had to say.

[orb]

damn that's messed up. i have those on my ride, but luckily i'm in orlando and don't have to deal w/the salt and snow.

hopefully someone from the company will see this thread, i know a ton of future customers will, and this doesn't sound good for them.

[Mike@PureMS]

Here's the full spec on what makes a line DOT approved.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...cfr571.106.htm

Sorry to hear the line failed. Luckily no one was hurt!
Unfortunately no lines are made to last forever. Lines do occasionally fail. Make it a point to regularly inspect SS lines. They aren't as flexible, so they require some general inspections regularly. The important thing is that no one was hurt.

If Stoptech's willing to assist in getting you new lines that's great. But really take this as a lesson that SS lines really aren't meant to be installed and forgotten about. They really don't belong on street cars as generic replacements for this exact reason. They do need to be inspected regularly for a number of reasons.
While they are indeed a better performing line than stock rubber. Because they aren't as flexible, and they have an abrassive outer, they need to be inspected regularly to abrasion, interference, etc.

Good luck!

[Mark]

Mike, I agree that nothing lasts forever. However, with that said, I've rebuilt numerous antique cars ranging from the 50's and 60's. I inspected the original lines for those cars and put the original flexible lines back on. Even after 50 years (14 or so since I rebuilt them) the original lines are still functional. The problem is that these lines are only 5 years old, and they failed horribly. The weather (salt and temp) were not factors in this. The lines show no corrosion on the stainless lines at all . . . it was the junction where the female flange meets the line. The line fatigued from the back and forth movement of turning the wheels. Something just doesn't add up.

Even if stoptech offers to replace the lines, which I doubt will happen, I am not sure I want them on my car. With one small rupture the entire system failed. I still have the OEM ones, and although I prefer the 'brake feel' the SS lines offer, I'm going to go back to something I know will work. Worrying that my brakes will work or fail at interstate speeds is not an option. I am extremely lucky that this occurred at under 10 miles an hour, with very minimal braking pressure. Imagine at highway speed, coming around a corner seeing traffic backed up 1/2 a mile ahead and not being able to stop . . . using the emergency brake is not enough to stop at this speed in that distance. It's just a bad scenario I don't want to find myself in.

FWIW, I did inspect the lines recently when I replaced the front pads . . . they looked fine at that point. There were no obvious cracks or noticeable fatigue. Also, regular state inspections did not find any problem with them during the last five years. Like I said something just doesn't add up.

[Gondi Stylez]

Fuck, sorry to hear that shit man - glad you're okay! I'm super nervous to install my SS lines (Goodridge) now.

[absolutegtr]

Definetly glad to hear that you are alright. Was there any damage to your car? (you said you tapped a pole or something?)

As for the whole brake system failing, it actually makes sense. Typically, cars send brake fluid to the farthest caliper away from the master cylinder. But on our cars, I assume that our brake system sends fluid to the closest caliper from the master cylinder (I can assume this because when bleeding the brakes you start from the closest caliper to the farthest caliper). And since you broke the line on the caliper closest to the master cylinder no other fluid was able to reach the other calipers.

[TurboQuattroPwr]

So wtf???? If I cant use ss lines, can I just use oem lines on my 332mm kit and call it a day or are there other options??

[Audized]

I'm very sorry to hear about it, but I'm glad that you are ok and that your car didn't suffer from an extensive damage as the result of the brake line failure.

Ideally, SS brake lines should be replaced every two years because they do not show signs of wear like the factory ones do.

[Mark]

Ideally, SS brake lines should be replaced every two years because they do not show signs of wear like the factory ones do.

really? this is news to me? would have been fantastic to know a few years ago. Is this common knowledge that I missed?

just got off the phone with audi . . . at least the hardline from the ABS unit to the left wheel well isn't too much money . . . 17 beans.

[Maverick]

i think you just had a defect line or something. stoptech don't sell BS products. that's life and death we are talking about.
well go luck for getting everything fixed.

[Tgr_Clw]

Ideally, SS brake lines should be replaced every two years because they do not show signs of wear like the factory ones do.

I've heard the same and will be replacing all of mine with the next 3 months.

[TurboQuattroPwr]

Any update from today????

[CO AVANT]

Good luck getting Stoptech to warranty ANY of their products.....I'm serious. Had a phone conversation the other day with their warranty dept and they pretty much told me the moment you install any of their products on your car the liability is out of their hands. I hope they make an exception in your case cause that is BS IMO. They will prolly try to pin it on you and say you didn't install them right or something, which is weak I know...

[rxrep]

You've also got to worry about liability in an accident, because if insurance finds out the brakes aren't factory, you're fuckged anyhow.
With that said, I have no issues, problems, or concerns with my Stoptechs. I check the lines on a regular basis. I've also heard of swapping lines out bi-annually.
And Stoptech doesn't have a reputation for that stuff occurring regularly.

[F16HTON]

All lines are mean to be inspected, regardless of who tha manufacturer is...

This is why the factory has recommended service intervals, the majority of the money you spend on a service is actually the time it takes to do the inspection, not the actual labor for replacing stuff.

I did notice that you had mentioned that when the rear brakes in your jeep had failed, you still had some brakes, this is normal since it was not the fronts that failed...

When the front brakes fail, you still have your emergency parking brake, it is the backup for front brake failure.

I have never seen stoptech lines, but the Goodridge lines have a nylon outer sheath over the braided stainless steel that allow you to see the wear.

[Mark]

I talked to the service people at StopTech this afternoon with mixed results. They would like to have pictures of the failure so they can determine themselves what caused the rupture. He was very surprised to hear the location of the failure . . . however it makes perfect sense to me why it had a failure at the junction where the SS braided line meets the outer female flange attachment . . . as it's the location that always is moving back and forth when the wheel turns and up and down when the suspension arms move. He alluded to the fact that I could have the wrong lines installed . . . which is debunked considering they were sold for this car specifically. He also mentioned they could have been installed incorrectly, and routed improperly . . . again . . . this is a no-brainer when installing these lines . . . they get attached to A and B and no-where in-between . . it doesn't get routed through anything. Then he said it could be due to too much pulling on the line because it's too short . . . again they were supplied for my car's application. He said that under normal and correct usage . . . the lines should not fail as they did.

So . . . they want pictures of the line on the car . . . to see the routing and to see the point of failure. I am pretty sure I am not going to get any sort of warranty on these lines. They don't seem willing to assume that there is a possibility that the line failed due to some defect or overstressing the line during thousands of routine horizontal turns and vertical movement due to suspension carry.

The StopTech lines also are clear on the outside to check the braiding for cracks. However, where mine failed was under the black plastic pieces that are supposed to hold the line more rigid near the end flange crimps so that the braiding in this area doesn’t get stressed. It seems that the plastic piece cracked, and let the underlying SS braided cover move too much which then obviously stressed, cracked and then eventually the line under cracked from the internal brake fluid pressure. Seems straight forward in my opinion.

I understand that failures occur . . . that things break. If this was a less important and not an integral part involved in safety (ie. stopping ability) I would be more understanding of the situation and chalk it up to routine line failure. However, not stopping is not acceptable. I’m not looking to associate liability for damages incurred . . . as I am extremely lucky and it occurred at very low speed (thank god). No damages occurred beyond the line failure and ultimately the time and money involved in me fixing my car.

I’m going to send the pictures I took yesterday and also send better close ups of the line when I take it off the car this weekend. I'll post these here as well. We’ll see how this proceeds.

[diagnosticator]

This sort of event is what the Emergency Brake is for, besides use as a parking brake. The failure should not have occured, make sure the replacment lines are routed properly and supported in clamps to prevent any twisting or flex of the hose at the fittings during wheel steering and suspension motion.

[Mark]

This sort of event is what the Emergency Brake is for, besides use as a parking brake. The failure should not have occured, make sure the replacment lines are routed properly and supported in clamps to prevent any twisting or flex of the hose at the fittings during wheel steering and suspension motion.

The truth of the matter is . . . the emergency brake isn't going to stop our heavy cars with the rear brakes only at highway speeds when you have to stop fast. This was not a slow failure, it was sudden and immediate. I've used the e-brake on our cars to stop in testing the system before; I wasn't impressed with how long it took to stop without locking up the rear wheels.

[absolutegtr]

Dont forget about downshifting now.....

[diagnosticator]

The truth of the matter is . . . the emergency brake isn't going to stop our heavy cars with the rear brakes only at highway speeds when you have to stop fast. This was not a slow failure, it was sudden and immediate. I've used the e-brake on our cars to stop in testing the system before; I wasn't impressed with how long it took to stop without locking up the rear wheels.

Sure, I agree, the e-brake is weak compared to the service brakes, but they will lock up the rear wheels if you pull hard enough. But even then, the stopping distance is a lot longer than was anticipated just before the failure of normal braking action is started, and with the added delay having to think to use the e-brake, etc. One aspect of realizing you won't be able to stop in time, is after pulling the e-brake up hard to cause the rear wheels to lockup, a hard over on the steering wheel will rotate the car around into a spin. Depending on how fast the car is going at that point, may be preferred to hitting something. ABS and ESP won't be functional in the scenario you experienced either. Providence/Karma was definitely on your side this time, considering that the rupture occurred at low speed, with low brake system pressure, instead of during an emergency situation.

If you decide to install a new set of SS braided jacket hoses, consider adding rubber grommet style line support clamps, an inch or so from the hose fittings on each end, to support the hose, firmly positioned by a steel support bracket, one at the caliper, the other attached to the inner fender sheet metal. This will prevent the flexure and stress riser conditions at the hose/fitting transition point, spreading stress from the flex in the hose more evenly between the line supports. The hose must be supported near each end fitting. Without line supports between the hose end fittings, failure is likely, as you found out from the hose rupture at the fitting transition you experienced.

[JBM]

yeah not going to lie from that busted picture it looks like the lines are too short and whatever angle you have the wheels at puts the line in an ackward angle of strain if you understand that.

I have Stoptechs but I have the B5 S4 brakes and I check them out. I have had them for 5 years and they have been through snow and salt and I checked them 2 weeks ago and them seem fine. Ill check them again when I throw my wheels on.

[Papachristou]

this is balony.. half this board is running SS lines and this is the first failure ive seen... people have had lots of products that failed as well had it fail as well, new turbos fail, FMICs have leaks, TIPs had screws falling out eating turbos etc... its a fluke, no product is going to have a 0% failure rate.... stoptech should send you a BBK to make you go away though without sueing them for something

[Rallyguy]

So what's the outcome here? About to go with SS lines to improve the horrble brake feel on my stock B6.

Seems safe to do so - but was there any determination of cause here?

RK

[B6 Dude]

Wow, I was discussing this with a friend this past weekend (of going with braided brake lines and better pads to improve the braking on my Avant). But I'm now worried about the loss of brakes. I thought that all cars nowadays had dual braking circuits, so any leak would lock out half of the system, and there would still be brakes on the other 2 wheels, as I've had on cars since 1987. I also gutted the proportioning spring on my kitcar but retained the rest of the proportioning valve to keep this feature. I'm wondering why Audi wouldn't have this too.

.... stoptech should send you a BBK to make you go away though without sueing them for something

Even if they felt they'd like to do this out of the goodness of their hearts, this would be seen as an admission of guilt and that would open up a larger legal can of worms.

[akaEsCo01]

Even if they felt they'd like to do this out of the goodness of their hearts, this would be seen as an admission of guilt and that would open up a larger legal can of worms.

Not really, accepting the BBK would be taken as accepting a settlement so even if they were admitting guilt, they settled the matter.

[koolade9]

So what's the outcome here? About to go with SS lines to improve the horrble brake feel on my stock B6.

Seems safe to do so - but was there any determination of cause here?

RK

Evil leprechauns

failures like this happen to any product...if more people start having the same issue...then we have a real problem. This is the first ss line failure I've seen...

[koolade9]

Wow, I was discussing this with a friend this past weekend (of going with braided brake lines and better pads to improve the braking on my Avant). But I'm now worried about the loss of brakes. I thought that all cars nowadays had dual braking circuits, so any leak would lock out half of the system, and there would still be brakes on the other 2 wheels, as I've had on cars since 1987. I also gutted the proportioning spring on my kitcar but retained the rest of the proportioning valve to keep this feature. I'm wondering why Audi wouldn't have this too.

The Audi braking system most likely still has this attribute... I'm not putting words in the mouth of the OP, but he stated he just pushed the pedal to the floor. I've had brakes go out in other cars, and yes, initially the pedal went to the floor...I pumped a couple times and had enough pressure to lock up the opposite wheel.

Perhaps in this instance, with there being so little room to stop, the initial reaction was just standing on the pedal.

Mark, if you could provide that one peice of detail, perhaps it would clear some things up and ease a few worried minds...

[imgettingcloser]

Mark,
Have you heard anything back from stoptech. I just put a set of their front SS lines on this past weekend, good inprovment and pretty easy to do, but now wondering how long they will last.

imgettingcloser

[allstock]

I have to ask, OP are you still using Stoptech braided lines then?

[CrazyCal]

Holy necrobump, batman.

[texasboy21]

Goodridge FTW.

[alimo20]

i run these too - def checking the lines this wknd as i've had them for 2 years... nevermind.. 4 years!

[Brillo]

Two comments here: First, the DOT does not approve products, they write standards that have to be met. Products either meet the DOT standards or they don't. I know this may seem a bit picky to some readers. Second, ST should have bent over backward to make this situation right. By admitting a manufacturing, application, or design defect and correcting it they are in far less of a liability situation than if they blow it off. The OP wasn't hurt in this case, which is very good, but it could have been a much more serious situation. The OP wasn't harmed so has no claim against them other than part replacement or a full refund.
To me the fact that the OP (and others) didn't know that these were intended only for racing applications means that StopTech has done a very poor job warning against use in DD applications. This could be a big problem for them. Hopefully this is a one off problem because I haven't read in the past years of any other problems with ss break lines. I am also curious though how ST resolved the OP's problem.

[diagnosticator]

This also why the brackets supporting the flexible brake hose on the caliper and body must be used to support the brake line at each end. If the line is incorrectly supported, allows the brake hose to flex at the hose to end fitting transition, resulting in failure of the hose as was the cause of failure in this case. Car manufacturers know all about stainless braided reinforced Teflon brake hoses. There are good reasons they are not used for production vehicles.

[Charles.waite]

^^ Those reasons aren't necessarily longevity or porformance, Diagnosticator. Could be as simple as cost or ease of manufacture, or durability during handling, storage, or shipping.

Its also important to note, the inner material is Teflon, not rubber. And all DOT-compliant hoses are covered with a PVC (or similar) abrasion resistant coating.

FWIW, while OP's situation sucks, he comes off as sounding highly entitled and sort of a prick.

[diagnosticator]

^^ Those reasons aren't necessarily longevity or porformance, Diagnosticator. Could be as simple as cost or ease of manufacture, or durability during handling, storage, or shipping.

Its also important to note, the inner material is Teflon, not rubber. And all DOT-compliant hoses are covered with a PVC (or similar) abrasion resistant coating.

FWIW, while OP's situation sucks, he comes off as sounding highly entitled and sort of a prick.

There are several technical reasons associated with reliability why braided stainless jacketed Teflon brake lines are not used for production parts. I don't remember off hand what the reason/s are, I will try and find info about that.

I agree, the OP is uniformed and assumes a lot without reasonable justification.

[Charles.waite]

There are several technical reasons associated with reliability why braided stainless jacketed Teflon brake lines are not used for production parts. I don't remember off hand what the reason/s are, I will try and find info about that.

If you remember and/or can find that info I'd love to know the reasoning. Thanks!

[Turbavanttro]

The necro-bumping of this thread may have saved my life (no melo-drama intended...) or, at a minimum, saved an accident from happening. I decided to inspect my Goodridge lines after reading all of this. I found cracked metal flanges on the banjo fittings at the line connection to the front calipers, and the stainless braided covering was exposed. In my situation, I suspect it is my own fault, due to several instances when I may have stressed the line when working on the front brakes, the rack, and/or suspension components.

Needless to say though, I am grateful this thread brought my attention to it. Time to replace the lines. Not driving the car until that's done. Might as well rebuild my calipers while I am at it. AZ FTW

[PreciseD]

The necro-bumping of this thread may have saved my life (no melo-drama intended...) or, at a minimum, saved an accident from happening. I decided to inspect my Goodridge lines after reading all of this. I found cracked metal flanges on the banjo fittings at the line connection to the front calipers, and the stainless braided covering was exposed. In my situation, I suspect it is my own fault, due to several instances when I may have stressed the line when working on the front brakes, the rack, and/or suspension components.

Needless to say though, I am grateful this thread brought my attention to it. Time to replace the lines. Not driving the car until that's done. Might as well rebuild my calipers while I am at it. AZ FTW

And so it continues lol..... Good thing you found out now. I checked my ECS ones that I bought 8 years ago and they are still going strong.