how much power REALLY can i expect from a water injection kit?

[BastardS4]

inquiring minds and all that

Im at the wall in terms of power extraction from my little hybrids.

Where i go from here depends on next springs tax return. But i might consider a little aquamist/meth injection setup.

Basically im asking what in terms of HP or trap speed differences have people been seeing?

[AudiA4_20T]

Id say about 15-20whp, if you had a custom tune itd be solid, but keep in mind you can run race gas with meth

[1997gtx]

I'd venture to say more than that, depending upon your tune and how cool the car is running now. Running a decent mixture with a perfect tune would be like running around with 103+ octane all the time. I could see -- with a good healthy tune -- in the 30-40whp range.
--Adam

[exorcet]

you need to do some logs and see where your timing currently is, and that might give you an idea of what potential there will be.

I would guess at least 25whp minimum on pump if you get it tweaked right.

[S4 in_lowplaces]

i agree with adam

[Das General]

AMD (i think it was them) go about 470whp on pump+meth.

so that is quite a bit more than your OTS tune.

[S4Per]

side question on this topic (as I'm pretty ignorant on it) : what's it cost to keep 'the meth tank' full? How much does it go for, where do you get it, and how quickly do you go through it?

TIA,
Per

[Mantis]

windshield washer fluid, real cheap

[Das General]

eh you can use washer fluid but that isn't necessarily the best from what I have read.

if you search around you can find some sources that ship it out fairly cheap.

[S4Per]

how long does one 'tank' last? (realizing there are different sized tanks, not sure what standard size is). Do you need to fill it up as often as gas? twice as often? 1/2 as often? just looking for ballpark given a certain size tank.

Thanks,
Per

[lil' is 300]

I'd venture to say more than that, depending upon your tune and how cool the car is running now. Running a decent mixture with a perfect tune would be like running around with 103+ octane all the time. I could see -- with a good healthy tune -- in the 30-40whp range.
--Adam

Well said.

[Mantis]

It is true that you can get better, but I have to tell yo uthat the winter formula ww fluid up here in Canada has a real high methanol content, but yo uare correct, using straight methanol with a slight water mix is the best

[SoEvoL]

It is true that you can get better, but I have to tell yo uthat the winter formula ww fluid up here in Canada has a real high methanol content, but yo uare correct, using straight methanol with a slight water mix is the best

-25 degree mix works great, real high content and cheap.

[hyperlight944]

meth is used up slowly and u can use just reg distilled water no meth is neccessary btw and yes the ww fluid will work but its been debated if good or bad
cheers
--daniel

[1997gtx]

It all depends upon your car, the nozzle you use, etc...

For instance, I am running a perfect 50/50 W/M mixture on my 3000GT.

It runs an 11gph nozzle -- which is huge. "Normal" kits (ie - suitable for the S4) would be in the 5gph or 7gph range.

I have a Snow Variable controller on my car, which starts a light spray (40%) when i'm at 10psi. When the car is hitting 20+ psi, the nozzle is spraying at 100%.

I have the kit (as it was made) to use the stock windshield wiper tank. You disconnect the hose that goes to the windshield wiper, and run a hose that pumps to a W/M pump (and computer) and then to a nozzle that taps directly into my intercooler pipe. When the fluid gets low, my lower washer fluid light goes on. Pretty easy.

Even running around at 20+ psi, the tank lasts just as long as a normal tank of gas.

I fill it up with a 50/50 mixture from regular windshield washer fluid.

As a rule of thumb, 50/50 Water/Methanol injection will increase the octane rating of pump gas by 25% during injection.

So, in theory ... if you're running 93 octane, and throw in a 50/50 mixture, you should see a bump in octane by about 20-23 -- or about 113octane ... (Please note I incorrectly typed 103 above).

A W/M injection will lower your A/F ratio by at least a half point just to start, so if you are able to really tune the car, the A/F ratios and an adjustable nozzle, the possibilities are limitless.

You literally could be running equivalent to 113 octane whenever you want.

Also, please note that you should definately avoid mixtures that contain propylene glycol (anti-freeze). It's sometimes added to washer fluid to lower the temperature rating and is harmful to the engine if injected...so, make sure you check!

Here are some methanol ratios of commonly available washer fluids per the manufactures MSDS:



I would stick with Peak -25 degree windshield wiper fluid for the S4 ... At about 35% methanol, it should do the trick nicely for our cars -- it would be about a 17.5% octane boost and put your octane ratiing (with 93 in the tank) to around 109.

Credits for some of the info goes to the guys on my 3000GT forum.

Hope this helps.

Cheers~
--Adam

[S4Per]

Awesome Adam. Thanks much for the extensive info.

[YZracer]

1997gtx, thanks for all that info. You really know your stuff.

I am definitely be interested in doing this. It's a lot cheaper than upgrading to a GT or RS6 turbo kit.

Does anyone know who is qualified to do this setup and tune our cars for it? I heard EPL is good? Any other place that can do it right and extract these maximum gains?

[sean1.8t]

^you can "tune" it yourself. just need a vagcom and lemmiwinks.

fwiw(on a 1.8t) i run -20* washer fluid 90% of the time. really does do the trick. CF's and IAT's were lowered significantly and im able to run more timing with peace of mind that my engine is going to stay together

[1997gtx]

1997gtx, thanks for all that info. You really know your stuff.

I am definitely be interested in doing this. It's a lot cheaper than upgrading to a GT or RS6 turbo kit.

Does anyone know who is qualified to do this setup and tune our cars for it? I heard EPL is good? Any other place that can do it right and extract these maximum gains?

No problemo ... While cheaper than merely upgrading turbo's, you could always run W/M with those turbo's as well and go even faster

To install the kit is pretty easy, but tuning is another story -- especially if you get a variable controller like I have.

I would think Tony at EPL could handle the tune quite easily.
--Adam

[J-tec]

Keep in mind as well, if you have a race file on your ecu you can run that as well.. w/m is like having 100 oct in the motor at all times (well when it sprays)

[1997gtx]

^ Kinda ... That tune will be the same tune for start-up, etc, even though you're really only 'starting-up' with 93 octane.

If you running equivalent of 109 octane, that tune will have to adapt for it being 109 octane only some of the time.

It's really all in how you set up the system to spray. Since mine is variable, it needed a complete custom tune.
--Adam

[lil' is 300]

Saved that jpeg. Awesome stuff.

I'm def. going with W/M injection with my set up. I've heard that although progressive setups are nice with control, the regular plain jane injection performs just as well.

Any opinions? And what is the injection kit of choice (besides Aquamist...too expensive).

[GyzmoS4]

Here is another option: http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=9

[S4Per]

Is tuning an absolute must? I know it is to get the maximum out of it, but it seems like my experience at the dyno with 100 octane would be close to identical (see below) to adding W/M.

Scenario: I picked up 50whp after adding 5 gallons of 100 octane to an almost empty tank of 92. I did not switch programming at all, i.e. it was running (at that time AWE) pump program, and by the 2nd run, the ECU had adapted.

Can anyone comment? Do you just leave HP on the table if you don't tune for it? Will the ECU adapt like it did above? Will you do any damage if you don't tune for it? I'm guessing variable systems may be more of a challenge here (require a tune) vs. constant spray?

Thanks,
Per

[Rated S]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this, does W/M spray on the ICs to cool them or is it actually sprayed into the engine system?

[audiwop]

^^^I'm not to familiar with meth injection but I'm almost positive it shoots the water/meth into the intake system. Also, I have been really thinking about doing meth injection as well. Not knowing a whole lot about it, who sells it and is it a hard DYI?

[hyperlight944]

w/m does indeed spray into the intake ... usually a bi pipe is needed and two nozzels can be used one on each side or just one bigger one on one side .. either way it goes into the intake system and the water meth evaporates leaving the air cooler and puts more oxeygen in the air to make the fuel more combustible also the hydrogen is there to :)
dont quote me on this info though lol
cheers

--daniel

[lil' is 300]

You tap nozzles into the charge pipes right before the throttle body and it sprays direct.

Water, C02 or N20 can be sprayed on IC's but doesn't compare to direct meth/water injection.

[Rated S]

You tap nozzles into the charge pipes right before the throttle body and it sprays direct.

Water, C02 or N20 can be sprayed on IC's but doesn't compare to direct meth/water injection.

Thanks, so it doesn't damage any of the combustion with the water/meth? No long term damage or effects?

[infinkc]

where do you buy meth from besides the street corner?

[Audone]

I got my kit from VAST... basically the same as Devils own... been using low temp washer fluid, and its been running great!!
I have it coming on around 10psi, and full spray at 20psi... I have just been running my 93 program (Stage 3) with timing added and fuel pulled.. havent tried the 104 yet as I have been working on other issues.

[lil' is 300]

where do you buy meth from besides the street corner?

Any gas station that sells windshield washer fluid. 99 cents a gallon.

[sean1.8t]

Thanks, so it doesn't damage any of the combustion with the water/meth? No long term damage or effects?

water/meth has absolutely no drawbacks. it's completely safe for the combustion. actually cools it and removes carbon deposits on your pistons.

so basically, cooler IAT's. higher octane, and all you have to do is make sure you keep the bottle full. which is why i use my stock windshield washer tank. low level indicator is nice.

look into Devil's Own also. them and snow are the 2 main company's VW and Audi guys use

[sean1.8t]

w/m does indeed spray into the intake ... usually a bi pipe is needed and two nozzels can be used one on each side or just one bigger one on one side .. either way it goes into the intake system and the water meth evaporates leaving the air cooler and puts more oxeygen in the air to make the fuel more combustible also the hydrogen is there to :)
dont quote me on this info though lol
cheers

--daniel

a bi pipe is not needed. just tap the nozzle into a samco TBB or the like

[S4Per]

...and all you have to do is make sure you keep the bottle full...

What happens if you don't?

I'm guessing - you tuned for it, getting better timing, now you don't have the basis for achieving that timing and things go south from there?

[Rated S]

a bi pipe is not needed. just tap the nozzle into a samco TBB or the like

Pictures worth a thousand words:

[jkimspe]

how large of a container do most s4 guys use (if not already using the windshield fluid reservoir). and how long does that fill up last you?

my S is daily driven, (5miles round trip) and would i have to fill up once a week?

[sean1.8t]

What happens if you don't?

I'm guessing - you tuned for it, getting better timing, now you don't have the basis for achieving that timing and things go south from there?

depends on how your car is tuned for it. if it's a pretty decent change in timing and fuel, then your engine will grenade pretty fast. lots of guys have blown their engines this way because of a pump going out.

which is why for daily driving mine isn't tuned agressively, just tuned to make the motor run more effecient.

Pictures worth a thousand words:

i could still install it without the bi pipe

[SLC_S4]

depends on how your car is tuned for it. if it's a pretty decent change in timing and fuel, then your engine will grenade pretty fast. lots of guys have blown their engines this way because of a pump going out.

which is why for daily driving mine isn't tuned agressively, just tuned to make the motor run more effecient.



i could still install it without the bi pipe

Who tuned yours? How much did it cost, if I can ask? What kit is it? I ask because I'm also in Utah and may be interested in doing this.

[Rated S]

i could still install it without the bi pipe

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. Just a way to show how one can isntall it.