Why no bolt on Garret Turbo's?

[Audi_S4]

about 6 months ago I saw this...

http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/release041205.htm

http://www.atpturbo.com/root/release...se102705_2.htm

but it seems nothing really came out of it or what??? are they for sale now or ...

I don't want a full gt kit to blast out 500whp , I just want garret turbos in my S and it seems they can be made to fit stock downpipes and manifolds.

tomorrow or friday I'm going to Turboservice Belgium
http://www.turboservicebelgium.com/Engels/index.html

I know the guy , just called him and told me lately indeed KKK RS4 K04's seem to die quicker then they used to, just had 2 sets in from this week from RS4's that only had 10-20k km on them and were totally screwed

he also told me it was better to go GT that these turbos were better made ,stronger and could push more hp with less boost, also due to dual ballbearing.

tomorrow he is going to take a look to make A GT2554r be a direct bolt on to stock downpipes and manifolds !

[98a4]

I dont know what happened to the eliminators, but I would sure be interestd if they came out. Tuning/Software is the only problem, but I'm sure someone would figure that out quickly

[panix73]

Apparently ATP was planning releasing an eliminator series GT turbo or doing research on doing so back in 05-06. They even went as far as releasing a news letter about it, although unfortunately the project died.

Since then, TiAL has released a GT turbo kit that will not only bolt up to stock exhaust manifolds, although you'll even be able to use stock downpipes as well. They offer two kits, one utilizing a journal bearing turbo based off of a GT25, and another ball bearing based off a GT28 series. Both turbos utilize internal wastegates and are DIRECT bolt ons.

If you are interested in either of the following contact Johnny Bravo at TiAL. He is the man to speak to.

[Audi_S4]

damn, direct bolt on using stock manifolds and downpipes?

anybody now someting more about these Tial Elimanators????

I saw the 650 kit with external wastegates and stuff but I just need Replacements for the K03's to use with AWE downpipes and stuff , just the basic stage 3 upgrade but with other turbo's

[NogaroWonda00]

maybe you are hearing about re manufactured k04s failing. i just got a stage 3 kit from awe the box said borg warner and they were brand new....i had re man'd k03s put it in at first they failed right away. anyways not what i need to be hearing right after i bought this kit

[Audi_S4]

maybe you are hearing about re manufactured k04s failing. i just got a stage 3 kit from awe the box said borg warner and they were brand new....i had re man'd k03s put it in at first they failed right away. anyways not what i need to be hearing right after i bought this kit

no man, I talked to turbo service themselves, they sell those turbos and even they say the turbo's are weak in comparison to GT turbo with ballbearing. they told me garret GT series are made to handle 25+ psi boost levels for a long time and big heat , but the RS4 turbos are not designed to run high boost levels and can die sooner...

[sean1.8t]

no man, I talked to turbo service themselves, they sell those turbos and even they say the turbo's are weak in comparison to GT turbo with ballbearing. they told me garret GT series are made to handle 25+ psi boost levels for a long time and big heat , but the RS4 turbos are not designed to run high boost levels and can die sooner...

well of coarse. the larger the turbo, the higher effeciency it has.

and k04's are small. very small turbo's. they are not weak turbo's by any means though. supra guys run larger BW turbo's at 50psi no problem making 1500hp.

most likely the main reasons that k04's are failing(the small percentage at least) is that, 1-people don't know how to take care of a turbo'd car(not letting the oil warm up before they romp on it, and not letting the turbo's cool down after a hard drive. 2- people again, pushing them past their effeciency. you shouldn't really push them past ~24psi. but if you constantly push that, or more, the turbo will wear extremely fast and fail. it is this way with EVERY turbo

[generationjdm]

damn, direct bolt on using stock manifolds and downpipes?

anybody now someting more about these Tial Elimanators????

I saw the 650 kit with external wastegates and stuff but I just need Replacements for the K03's to use with AWE downpipes and stuff , just the basic stage 3 upgrade but with other turbo's

I think you might of misunderstood.. The eliminator kit isn't for S4sss the tial kit is....

Theres no way to make a garrett fit the stock manifolds unless your starter isn't important...

[98a4]

NO, that was the who point of elims. Building kits at your own pace, they are designed to fit stock dp,s with a recasting of the turbine stection and a garret chra and compressor side.

[AudiA4_20T]

I think you might of misunderstood.. The eliminator kit isn't for S4sss the tial kit is....

Theres no way to make a garrett fit the stock manifolds unless your starter isn't important...

push starting isnt so bad

[generationjdm]

Theres no bolt on garrett turbo anywhere for the stock manifolds period... I've built several GT kits to date and it doesn't fit as I tried to make it work for 4 weeks.. Theres no way possible to make any of the gt25ss or gt28ss to work... The compressor housing is to large for 1 the starters in the way 2 the actuators don't fit 3 how many more because i think theres at least a half dozens more reasons

[CKYmike]

pic of the tial650 kit

[2001S4NY]

Hand Cranking - Safe and Easy

[purchasers4]

I am installing the tial 650 kit literally right now in my garage. There is some grinding, etc required, but not a big deal. I have the turbos all bolted up and am just waiting on motor mounts and a few other parts

[generationjdm]

Grinding on what the compressor housing where its touching the manifold or by the starter?

[Audi_S4]

aren't there smaller versions then the 650 kit?

[OneSickSedan]

^Yeah Johnny from Tial said they were offering two kits. The smaller ones are journal bearing turbos as panix73 said. But lately I heard that they might not offer it anymore because of how well the 650 kit was doing in terms of spool. Skydive@AI had them installed and loved how quickly they spooled up.

[andream88]

a link to TIAL website?

[98a4]

Theres no bolt on garrett turbo anywhere for the stock manifolds period... I've built several GT kits to date and it doesn't fit as I tried to make it work for 4 weeks.. Theres no way possible to make any of the gt25ss or gt28ss to work... The compressor housing is to large for 1 the starters in the way 2 the actuators don't fit 3 how many more because i think theres at least a half dozens more reasons

Your right, but ATP had a running elim car on stock manifolds. They could have just made an extention or spacer between the manifold and the turbo. Or included a smaller starter with the kit easily.

1.8t, the entire point of the elims was the ability to do a slow, or budget build. Concept doesnt work as well on the 2.7t because of the location of everything :(

[Audi_S4]

where to go with the tial GT questions? I sent a mail to tial website...

[purchasers4]

I had to beat the outer wall of the driver side manifold in a little bit to make room, and grind down the flashing off the drivers side engine mount to make room for the inlet, and remove some brackets off the stock coolant lines. Nothing a dremel and hammer can't take care of.

For info on the tial kit, check tial's website, and tapp auto.

[Dr.Duct]

I would agree alot with GenX on this one.

First of all I dont see a point in running the Tial's or any other decent sized turbo for that matter without changing out the manifolds.

Secondly if your running 24psi on a daily driver, and doing it all the time.. Then no shit your ko4 is failing.. it can take it on days at the track here and there, but not everyday. Thats like saying hey these 28rs are failing because were trying to run them at 35psi, yet our gt45r is doing just great.. Ya think?

Like Sean said.. Its not Borg Warner turbo's that are the issue.. Its the consumer or tuner that has picked the wrong said up for an individuals desire's. Borg Warner makes bullseye turbo's and a TON of people are out there running them on Supra's, Grand Nationals, Mustang's, etc. with Absolutely No problem. Actualy alot of people would rather takea bullseye over a Garret as they feel that the Bullseye makes more boost quicker then that of the same sized garret.

[Reich]

I am installing the tial 650 kit literally right now in my garage. There is some grinding, etc required, but not a big deal. I have the turbos all bolted up and am just waiting on motor mounts and a few other parts

I don't think there's grinding to do. I have f..king big bullseye turbos, Which is a slightly biger than gt28, on my stock mani and no grinding at all. I only did some grinding on head gasket that protute to fit biger holset waistegate. Waistegate comes preaty close to the head but fit.

[ThirdStrike]

Like Sean said.. Its not Borg Warner turbo's that are the issue.. Its the consumer or tuner that has picked the wrong said up for an individuals desire's.

people will ALWAYS blame either 1. their software or 2. the turbo design when their shit fails.
95% of the time money says they NEVER did boost leak and or cyl leak down tests on their car, or like earlier said they are overboosting the k04's that fail on them.
vacuum leaks, boost leaks, and bad compression kills parts. when are we gonna learn that?
im just defending the kkk turbo. no its not a better design than the dual BB garrett but its certainly proven and does work well when the car is taken care of.

[Dr.Duct]

people will ALWAYS blame either 1. their software or 2. the turbo design when their shit fails.
95% of the time money says they NEVER did boost leak and or cyl leak down tests on their car, or like earlier said they are overboosting the k04's that fail on them.
vacuum leaks, boost leaks, and bad compression kills parts. when are we gonna learn that?
im just defending the kkk turbo. no its not a better design than the dual BB garrett but its certainly proven and does work well when the car is taken care of.

ko4's are money, and awesome for running 19psi and below.. anything to 23 is tinkering with death, anything about 23 is as certain as death and tax's.

GenX's kit is ideal for someone looking to do bigger and better things. Id prolly go with his kit vs. any of the others.

[Audi_S4]

yeah okay I understand that, but they told me recently there were more K04 failures then in the past few years... and this is not just someone , this is one of the biggest turbo shops in the country here, they only sell turbos from every brand so they would have no reason to tell crapp.


I just want to have 400-420chp and 300-330 whp with a safe moderate tune with bolt on turbos that don't fall apart after a few miles like some have done recently...I have them here and AWE downpipes so I could just have them installed but I have some fear with all the shit lately and I'm such a lucky boy with those things and I would just TRIPP if that happens...

[ThirdStrike]

ko4's are money, and awesome for running 19psi and below.. anything to 23 is tinkering with death, anything about 23 is as certain as death and tax's.

GenX's kit is ideal for someone looking to do bigger and better things. Id prolly go with his kit vs. any of the others.

please explain to me how 23 psi (or 11psi per turbo) is too much for the k04. i dont understand.

[Reich]

yeah okay I understand that, but they told me recently there were more K04 failures then in the past few years... and this is not just someone , this is one of the biggest turbo shops in the country here, they only sell turbos from every brand so they would have no reason to tell crapp.


I just want to have 400-420chp and 300-330 whp with a safe moderate tune with bolt on turbos that don't fall apart after a few miles like some have done recently...I have them here and AWE downpipes so I could just have them installed but I have some fear with all the shit lately and I'm such a lucky boy with those things and I would just TRIPP if that happens...

K04 have the same thrust bearing as k03. Much like a star washer, those thrust only have 270 deg of thrust surface instead of 360. They'll have the same issue as k03 if pushed to the limit.

[Dr.Duct]

please explain to me how 23 psi (or 11psi per turbo) is too much for the k04. i dont understand.

Look at the spec's and what they were designed for when put in the B5 RS4.

They can be ran at more, but for conservative everyday driving its not the best of idea's. Not saying it wouldnt last, but not likely.

To the other fella.

You can go Ko4's, A good custom tune, decent turbo back, and a nice set of intercoolers and youll be fine.

[JMTx86]

please explain to me how 23 psi (or 11psi per turbo) is too much for the k04. i dont understand.

b/c both turbos are pushing out 23 psi not 11 lol

[TalipseAWD]

b/c both turbos are pushing out 23 psi not 11 lol

lol

[Dr.Duct]

b/c both turbos are pushing out 23 psi not 11 lol

no.. actually its a total of 46 psi.. lol I wasnt even gonna go there. It felt to easy..

[JMTx86]

so what your saying is that if im running 20 psi, each one of my turbos is producing 10 psi?

OR

they are both pushing 20 psi.


You run 2 compressor 120 psi each, you hook them up to the same air line with a t fitting or what ever, they are gonna push 240 psi, i dont think so

[ThirdStrike]

which is it? 20psi(2400mbar) from the map sensor = 10 per turbo or 20 per turbo?

[generationjdm]

20 per turbo

[ThirdStrike]

20 per turbo

thanks.

[JMTx86]

lol

no.. actually its a total of 46 psi.. lol I wasnt even gonna go there. It felt to easy..

so sad, and your the pres of the free 10 sec s4 club. Damn.

[98a4]

Each turbo runs the same boost.

[sean1.8t]

Each turbo runs the same boost.

you almost contributed to the conversation

[98a4]

you almost contributed to the conversation

I have some long drawn out post, but i just edited it. I was sippin the sauce...