*Update 6/28* Fuel Pump and Filter replaced! Still No Start! Help!

[AWDios]

Mine went out.

I found the DIY for the filter: http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng49.shtml

But the closest I could find for the pump was: http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng81.shtml

Is there a more complete write up anywhere, or can someone fill me in on more details?

[Affinitive]

Roger -

By NO means am I trying to be spiteful and I certainly DON'T mean to be disrespectful to any DIY'ers. I will say a few things even though they will probably be percieved that way.

First off, I appologise if I you were not happy with any of the service I had given you and looking at the situation in hind sight, I should not have tried to "squeeze" you in for the check out of your car. Rudementary or not, I should have sheduled a better time so I wouldn't have had to rush things with you while trying to juggle a million other things. For that I'm sorry and I'm sorry if you feel as though I have waisted your time. Hopefully you can appreciate the inspection I gave your car and wish you the best of luck getting some of the stuff fixed and resolved.

I am concerned though. The link you posted for the fuel filter seems a bit strange and somewhat scary to be honest. I suppose it makes sense for someone without proper tooling but prying on a gas tank the way it was discribed and wedging the piece of wood between the tank is kinda scary and risky. Though I have heard of worse. But I soppose if you can get the filter strap loose, then you'll manage the rest.

As for the link on the pump replacement, that's not even a joke. It's down right scary and asking for trouble. Using a screwdriver and hammer to loosen the plastic ring on the top of the tank???????? You'll be pounding the hell out of that thing. How much damage will that cause???? And then just leaving it snug when installing ....................

You're really not doing yourself much of a favor with the route you're taking and the fan clutch which has already failed is not something to ignore. Why the previous people servicing your car ignored it, I don't know, but those fan clutches are a known problem and hardly make it 80K under ideal conditions and certainly don't fail suddenly. You should consider a SACHS brand name for that as it's an improvement form the OE. Don't forget to replace the bolt which secures the fan clutch as it's already damaged and should get replaced every time you loosen it because they always get damaged from removal even with the proper tools. It's a very soft bolt and unlike the dealer I keep some on hand since every one of them is always damaged. I bring up the bolt because as I mentioned the dealers don't stock them, so you should prepare to order it in advance because it took me almost 2 weeks to get a few the last time I ordered some. And no, you don't have to pull the front core support and bumper loose to change it. Just proper tools to separate the pulley from the fan clutch inside the engine compartment and unhook the upper hose. The tensioner, you'll see what I mean when you spin the pulley.

The jet suction pump and oil cap, that'll be no problem for you. And yes, i realise hardly no one knows what that jet suction pump really is and why it has such a big affect on the crankcase venting, but believe me, it's Loooooooooong overdue for replacement even if the oil cap wasn't spewing oil all over. As for the oil filter, pleeeaaase stop using those napa filters and use the proper updated filter. Mobil 1 Syn. oil will work but you should really consider using Pentosin HP 5w40 oil as it's the only oil I ever found meeting VW 502.00 and 505.00 oil specs. Actually Mobil 1 is not recommended by Audi/VW but plenty of people and shops use it with no problems.

Anywho, two things in particular you'll need to get a hold of
Tool number 3217 and 3307. You can check out www.samstagsales.com or if need be www.asttool.com
Samstag's prices are pretty good considering and they have pictures of everything by clicking the prices. I'm not sure the factory tool supplier would do business with you. Hell, they still try to blow me off even after buying my 5052 from them and plenty of other things.

Again, I appologise if I did you wrong somehow or didn't explain things very well. I left an estimate in the car and if you consider the freebee's I was offering and what other shops would charge for time in terms of # of hours for all the other little things, then I think you'll realise I was actually offering a pretty good deal on a "Worst Case Scenario". If it's just a matter of finances and not being able to sink 2G's into the car in a worst case scenario, then I completely understand. Believe me, most people can't spend that on short notice and it's nothing to be ashamed of IF that's the case. Then again, the problem is probably my fault for not explaining things very well and trying to squeeze you in on short notice. Again I appologise. I just hope this all doesn't turn out to be an uneccesary hassle or painful learning curve.

Anywho, I've rambled too long but call if you have questions.

THANX

C

[ILoveT]

WTF is going on?

[djwimbo]

WTF is going on?

Good question.

as far as the screwdriver and hammer technique to removing the big plastic nut on the modular fuel pump setup, it's been done and works. Would I recommend it, No.
I know on the Corolla's and Matrix we had to torque that big plastic nut down to IIRC 39-40 ft lbs. to ensure that it would seal. That's part of the reason why I wouldn't recommend it.

As far as spending $2K on your car, I wish you were in MI, I could save you a huge chunk on labor if you didn't want to do it yourself.

I wouldn't ignore the fan clutch issue, but it would be a concern after you get the car running. Fixing the fan clutch and not the pump, makes the car still not run. That wouldn't make sense.

Oh, and he misspelled wasteful as "waistful"

Mobil 1 is recommended by 502.00 standards, and WTF is a jet suction pump?
Proof
Napa oil filters are made by WIX. WIX is known to be one of the leading brands of oil filter manufacturers. Do some research. There's more than one level of quality filters that they make, but Napa sells them as "Silver" and "Gold" filters. The Gold filters is what you want. WIX also makes filters for Carquest, as well as many others.

[AWDios]

Ok so the lowdown on things. Username Affinitive is the mechanic I took my car to, to have a no start problem diagnosed. I do appreciate the full car run down, but the way it was presented definately felt like an auto mechanic that tries to get as much as possible out of you, which I understand as you're in the business to make money, it's called sales, which is my profession. What I would have done, is gone with quoting me the price of the work that I brought the car in for, and then brought up the other issues, and figures. But that's me personally, and from a sales stand point I'm sure some would disuade you from starting low and then trying to upsell, instead of downsell. Also, everyone I've spoken to says, replace the filter, see if it starts and then do the pump, so I'm going to make that attempt myself. When I came in asking for advice on potential do it yourself work, and you offered to look the car over for free, so that's all I took you up on.

So here's my situation. I definitely do not have a bunch of funds available to me, and to top it off, ideally I won't have this car much longer. I'm a newly wed, and with the talk of potential family, a 5spd compact sedan is not ideal, so I just want to make it last long enough for me to get something else.

I consider myself fairly competent in basic maintenance, pretty much anything that doesn't involve tearing apart an engine. I want to learn more, and be able to do more myself, and this is not something I've tackled before, but I'm thinking I should be able to do it, and save myself the money on labor. If in fact I get into it and cannot complete the job, it will probably end up back at your shop to finish up for me. I have an unlimited towing plan, so I'm not really worried about moving it.

So I'll be starting work on it on thursday evening, and I'll keep this post updated as I go.

Also djwimbo, thanks for your insight, and the 2k did include some other things that he did not mention in his post, so once that's all included in the "worst case scenario" it probably makes more sense, especially considering the average rate mechanics charge in this area.

Hope my post wasn't too all over the place, I'm a little hopped up on allergy medication :P Will keep this updated.

[AWDios]

Filter has been replaced. It was completely clogged, but we still have no start, so fuel pump is next.

[AWDios]

Fuel pump replaced. Definately have fuel pressur, but still no start. Checked all fuses, all good. Checked for spark, and there is none. Ignition control module? Where is it?

[deux321]

your 01' a4 will not have a ICM!

[Affinitive]

Are you sure you didn't get the two fuel lines mixed up at the top of the tank??? Easy to do and seen it a few times.

How exactly are you checking for spark???

I ask because the car would briefly "fire" with an "alternative" fuel source and even the little drizzle of fuel that would work it's way into the fuel rail from the motion of the tow truck (as in the gas tank pressure rising form fuel sloshing around and in turn a little would creep into the fuel rail).

Make Sense???

I find it hard to believe that all four ignition coils would suddenly loose their primary power supply or that the ECM would suddenly stop interrupting the primary coil winding/circuit ground path which in turn induces the coils to discharge through the spark plug (also known as the secondary winding/circuit). Basicly I find it hard to believe that the crank sensor would suddenly fail.

Don't mean to doubt your abilities and actually you made it a lot further than I honestly thought. Congrats on that, seriously, you did good, especially considering the lack of tools.

I would suspect the fuel lines to have gotton mixed up at the top of the tank as it's very easy to do and like I said, I've seen it before. The fuel will not flow backwards through the rail and regulator. That again brings up the question of how you're checking for spark??? Again, not trying to be a prick or nothing but how are you checking that??? Also something to consider, when you change the filter and pump, you have to crank the engine quite a bit with several cranking cycles to bleed the fuel rail. Are you sure cranked it long and often enough. The pump gets energised briefly when the key is first turned to the on position only once when the car sits for a while, so simply cycling the key on and off many times like a japanese car won't really help you much.

Also, as for the question of fuses and power supply on all that jazz, does the MIL (the check engine light) turn on when you turn the key to the on position for the "bulb check"

C

[20vpower]

spray sum carb cleaner in the throttle body and try to start, if it starts for a second then dies, somethings messed up witht he fuel pump

[Euro-Tuner]

did you use the link DIY to replace your fuel filter? I am sceptical of it but there isnt another write-up that I have found.

[Oricle]

did you use the link DIY to replace your fuel filter? I am sceptical of it but there isnt another write-up that I have found.

The fuel filter DIY doesn't really help.

Biggest piece of advice is make sure that fuel filter is snug and will not drop. Pull on it, etc, to make sure it stays on tight.

[02 A6 2.7T]

I ask because the car would briefly "fire" with an "alternative" fuel source and even the little drizzle of fuel that would work it's way into the fuel rail from the motion of the tow truck (as in the gas tank pressure rising form fuel sloshing around and in turn a little would creep into the fuel rail).

Make Sense???


C

Makes no sense at all. Suggesting that fuel sloshing around during towing would increase the pressure on the system enough to even dribble from the injectors is ludicrous.
Did you run a VAG-COM scan on the car? What were the fault codes?

[AWDios]

Guys, I have fuel getting to the fuel rail. This was the first thing we checked when it still didn't start. Will this still happen if the lines are mixed up? Will I get fuel pressure but not fuel delivery?

I pulled the plug, stuck it in the coil pack and tried to get it to arc to the block, no luck. Is there another way to check this that's different on a car with a coil pack?

I'll look again for the check engine light, but I don't recall seeing it, even though I was not looking.

Also Colin/Affinitive. I don't think you made me aware of any fault codes that you pulled. Were there any?

[Affinitive]

No, there were no faults stored in the ECM and I did forget to put the auto scan print out in the car. There were some faults in climate control and central locking but nothing to be concerned about at this point. We can discuss those things later and why I say not a concern at this point. As for the fuel getting to the rail, I didn't state that correctly earlier, it can get a little fuel through the regulator if flowing backwards but it's hardly nothing and certainly not enough to start the car but can be decieving when loosening the flare nut on the pressure/feed line as some fuel will leak out. The quickest, easiest and most conclusive answer to wether the lines are mixed up or not is to hook up a gauge to the pressure line on the rail to see if pressure spikes quickly to spec when turning the key on or cranking. The more daring way would be to unhook the line and make sure the fuel shoots out the pressure hose and not drizzling out of the rail side (if the lines were mixed up) when turning the key on if it's been sitting for a while. Not really recomended as the fuel should shoot out quite a ways but not really all that big of a deal either, especially considering the pump cycles only about 1 second when turning the key to the on position if it's been sitting a while, so you won't get very much but definitly a "At Your Own Risk" type of deal. LOL. Expect the fuel to spray out several feet, possibly even a couple of yards since the pump should be in good working order now.

As for the checking spark thing by just touching some metal on the engine, you, me and everyone would think that's OK but not really since you won't get a good ground path from such a small contact point especially considering dirt and grime on the plug threads and whatever you're touching. That's part of the reason spark plugs have such long threads is to insure proper ground path. Also the spark can be tuff to see. Spark plugs require a lot more voltage to fire in normal atmosphere and lean combustion which means the coil will discharge much faster with a higher KV spike and physically smaller arc as oppossed to spark plug ignition in a high pressure and fuel environment which will produce a longer spark with lower KV spike and also a physically bigger arc as well. Make Sense??? long story short, with smaller indivdual coils, it can be VERY VERY tuff to actually "SEE" a spark plug firing even if it has a good ground path, which it probably didn't by just touching a piece of metal, especially not the valve cover. Ignition stuff is quite cool actually when you consider that you can compare compression and fuel mixture of all cylinders by simply looking at KV discharge and coil primary winding current draw. Basicly low compression and lean running cylinders require more voltage to fire a spark plug.

Anywho, the simplist way and most assuring check would be to substitute an "alternative" fuel source to see if will briefly start and then stall. Take some carb cleaner or brake cleaner or even wd40 and spray it into the small vacuum fitting closest to the front of the car using the little straw that come with the can. You'll have to spray a fair bit in there. A good 2 - 3 seconds of spray should do it and allow it to start and run for a coupl of seconds. taking the intake hose off the throttle and spraying in there is not really feasable since the throttle will be closed and is angled downward, so it will all just run right out onto the ground. You shouldn't really do that while cranking because there won't be any air flow through the Air Mass Meter while doing so and it most likely won't start no matter what you do at that point. Without a osciloscope/labscope to sample the ignition primary and secondary circuits, the "alternative fuel" method really is the only conclusive check to perform.

Make Sense ???

As for the fuel filter. You either got it in or not. it can only be hooked into the system one way since the inlet and outlet are different sizes. Now the mounting aspect of the filter is the filter is the tuff part. having to lower the tank and all and the little bolt that always siezes in the square nut and spins the nut in the plastic strap. Yup, the famous B5 fool filter sure do suck and that's why they are always ignored but not a bad deal when using plenty of penetrating oil on the bolt&nut, some custom made tools and a little patience. Anywho, getting off track. The only thing I would be concerned about with the filter is if you had mounted the filter with the top line hooked up and then tightened the lower line/banjo bolt without counter holding the filter with a second wrench (as in using the mounting strap to hold the filter) and in turn spining the filter in it's mounting to a point where the top line got twisted and kinked to restrict fuel flow. I highly doubt it at this point as you've shown yourself to be pretty competent so far, but just wanted to mention it to make sure.

Make sense???

And touch on the MIL turning on when the key is on. If there was any concern about power supply to the ignition system and such. I mentioned that because if the MIL does not turn on when the key is turned on, then yes, there would be an issue with a fuse or relay. Granted, the ECM only ties into the ignition circuit on the "ground" side of the primary windings of the ignition coils but again, very unlikely that fuses or realys would have failed for no reason while working on the fuel pump and such. Probably shouldn't even have mentioned it. if there was an issue with the battery voltage being to low to even activate realys and such, then the engine would be cranking very slowly as well if at all. I did check your battery and it tested good but needing a charge, but should still plenty of juice to crank for a while. Relay's and ECM's don't really start doing too many funny things until battery voltage drops to about 9 - 9.5 volts and like I mentioned, at that point it will hardly crank over if at all. Obviously you'd have enough sense to jump it or charge the battery.

Back to fault memory. Once this is all sorted out, then we or who ever should look into it again, especially after driving it for a while and the Air Mass Meter that lookes to be OE. If not OE, then it is VERY old. I could tell by the 2 screw that hold the sensor "insert" or "cartridge" in the tube mounted inside the filter box. For several years now, these Bosch Air Mass meters have been using Tamper proof Torx Plus screws in instead of regular tamper proof torx screws. These sensors are a very well known problem with all european cars. They are so bad that they even seem to fail just due to time and age. I mention this and brought it up in the estimate because I have corrected many fuel delivery issues just to end up with PO'ed customers because fuel trim numbers would finally start exceeding threshold limits once the fuel delivery was corrected. Basicly failing pumps and clogged fuel filters will help to mask failing Air Mass Meters and given how old yours is, it's very likely to be the case for you as well. That's why I tried to prep you for it instead of having to squeeze you for more money later. Whatever, deal with it when the time comes but regardless, don't waist your time and money on the cheap "Rebuilt" sensors the dealers like to sell. Brand new Bosch is the only way to go if you want it to last more than 6 months to a year, which the dealers should also have available. Don't even get me started on Napa's version of a "Rebuilt" sensor.
What else, I think that's about it as far as the car for now.
Though I do feel a bit obnoxious today and things are finally a little calm at the shop, so I'll replay to some of the other posts and coments in this thread.

Somehow I'm not surprised that I would be accused of being a "Rip-Off" by someone who didn't even see the estimate I had made for Roger or understanding the situation fully. Maybe I should say that someone would "Imply" that I'm a rip-off.
As for the "Jet Suction Pump". It's basicly a PCV valve. That's what cause most of the excessive oil consumption and oil leaks on so many of you guy's cars. Most all 1.8T's have them and all 30Valve 2.8's. Well, Audi 2.8 that is. VW continued with the ATQ 2.8 after audi dumped it for the 3.0L but changed to a similar vent valve as the 3.0L. Part # 058 133 753B has been superceeded to 058 133 753D. The "B" number is still available through third party suppliers like World Pac and such. Doesn't really make much of a difference which one you use. the "D" number is also a fair bit more expensive. BTW Roger, don't just replace the oil cap without the suction pump as it will just sprout up leaks elsewhere if you repair the currently weakest point of the crankcase vent system. That being the old worn out seal on the oil cap.

Let's see, then we need to nitpick spelling, .....really, no really. Especially a word I didn't even use or type. Really. Whatever, I'll be sure to think about that spell check,.... I guess.

As for the mobil 1. Excuse me, I was wrong. Mobil 1 finally made the cut for the old 502.00 spec oil. My bad and I'll be sure to look at 505.00 spec again. As for the Napa filters. Yes, Napa Gold line (WIX Filters) filters are good but technically not correct for the particular application. There's a reason Audi wants such big filters on the 1.8T's in B5 and B6 chassis cars. The only reason their not used on all other 1.8T's is because they will not physically fit into the engine compartment. Also all other 1.8T's are not over worked as much as in a B5 or 6 chassis, so sludging is not quite so much of an issue as it is in B5 and B6 chassis cars. B5 and 6 chassis cars with 1.8T's are way under powered and even with good synthetic oil will still develop sludge issues because that little tiny engine has to work like hell to move that all wheel drive car the way most of use want to drive. Hence the giant filters to help filter out sludge build up. For someone who is good about engine oil services, they'll be fine with a smaller filter equivilant to that used in transverse mounted 1.8T's.

Then the gas issue. Ever filled a gas can that has a little vent cap, filled it half way with the vent cap loose, sealed the can and shake it a bit and then wonder why the vent will make a hissing noise after shaking the can when you open the vent again. Better yet, ever loosened a fuel line and then wonder why there would be a big puddle of fuel underneath the car the next day even though the fuel didn't keep running out while you were working on it. That's because the fuel filler cap was not removed. Actually if you drive around for a while on a hot day and lossen a fuel line without venting out the pressure, the fuel line will leak out fuel for a very long time even though the pump is not running.

These are just a couple of the reasons why these "DIY'er" forums don't get hardly any of us "Professionals" contributing and helping. Why should we if we're just gonna get into a pissing match for no reason, or childish reasons at best. I also participate in another forum with other "pro's" in the industry and it is a whole different world. Sure we have some incompetent members from incompetent shops participating but still a completely different atmosphere. the only reason I signed up here was to help Roger because I felt bad for him and his situation and would like to help. Yes, I was a little irritated that I didn't get a chance to fully explain myself and the condition of his car and how we would need to approach the needed repairs. On the other hand, I'm at just as much fault for not explaining things the way they needed to be explained and presented to him. I feel like I didn't even get a chance to try and establish a "Game Plan" with him so his car could be taken care of. Again though, my fault for a number of reasons, but I'll keep on doing things the way it works best for me and my customers. That said my customers are definitely not DIY'ers.

Alright, I'm getting off topic and getting too long winded here
THANX
C

[AWDios]

the fuel squirts. I'm going to check for codes again tonight.

[djwimbo]

You need Fuel, Heat(spark) and compression to run the engine. Now you're gettin fuel, make sure you have spark.

I seriously doubt you have a compression issue.

I don't care if you have Coil on plug(COP), waste spark or a damn distributor. You'll be able to see the spark. It'll only be for 1.4-1.8mS, but it's a fricken blue spark that'll knock you on your ass if you're not careful.
You can get an inline spark tester so you don't even have to remove the spark plugs from the engine if you didn't want to.
We tested numerous COP systems on Honda's and Toyota's with great result. We typically replaced with a known good part b/c we had spares sitting around, but it's another way to test the system.

Make sure your spark plugs aren't fuel fouled either. If the electrodes are wet and smell like fuel, replace them. I've had my NGK BKR7E standard resistor plugs in for 10K w/o any issues and they're cheap. I'm chipped though. You might be better off with a BKR6E.

Another random thought. I don't know about 2001's much, but is it possible your immobilizer system is preventing the engine from starting? Jap cars would start and stall, I don't know about Euro cars.

If fuel is squirting the Cam sensor should be operational, and thus provide a signal for ignition as well. Bulb check the MIL, is definitely a good quick check. Shouldn't be an issue if your injectors pulse during cranking. If you have a stethoscope you can hear them ticking when they open/close. Otherwise I've used a screwdriver before with success. Whatever you're listening with, just press it up against the body of the injector and have somebody crank it. You'll hear it tick, quite frequently.

As far as calling anybody a rip-off, that's not me. I know I didn't see the estimate. I know what it's like to write up repair orders and service/diag customer's vehicles. The small shop I work at I AM the service dept. Parts, service and write-up, all me. All I said was that I could reduce the cost if he were in MI. On a slow week we'll drop our labor rate from $65/hr to $45 to get some work in the door. B/C of what we do, the service dept isn't the biggest income of the company.
I'm on here b/c I'm an enthusiast. I don't pride myself on the fact that I'm a professional. That's great if you do, everybody needs a career. I'm changing mine b/c I don't like it.

My car has 167K on it. I replaced the turbo for the first time in the engine's life @ 166K, I don't have any sludge. (Disclaimer: it's almost impossible to not have ANY sludge, I just don't have deposits building up.) I've run WIX, Mobil1 and K&N filters. I prefer the Mobil1 filter b/c of the larger capacity. However, I have an Oil Pressure gauge, my oil pressure doesn't change by running either one of the filters. I put it through it's paces just to make sure. How hard the engine has to work to move the vehicle has little to do with sludge. The most common cause for sludge is from overheating the oil and burning the detergents in the oil. This is part of the reason why it stinks so bad. Another major cause for sludge is over usage of the oil. When oil starts to break down it separates the oil from everything else that's in it and can create deposits from what's left behind.
Changing the oil while the engine is still hot is a common practice to help prevent this from happening.

The Jet Suction Pump is really nothing special. If I had to guess it's a metered orifice in the vacuum system. It's $25 on ECS, do it yourself.
He's right though, if you have a clog or restriction in your PCV system you oil can actually be pushed out of the seals of your engine. Commonly the valve cover, rear main, front main, cam seals,.... These seals are designed to hold back fluid pressure. Air is less dense, and it'll push through. Once that happens the oil and crankcase gases will follow.

Humor the dude, next time it's 90*+ outside get some gas. Stand back and watch the fuel vapors pour out of your filler neck. You can actually see it, like heat rising off the highway. That's what he's talking about. There's a big difference between that amount of atmospheric pressure differential and that of true fuel pressure. Under peak boost I'm making over 70psi of fuel pressure. I don't like that, I like 40-60psi, but it's vac/boost assisted and I don't want a custom tune for big injectors on a K03s.
At idle you should have 43-44 psi fuel pressure. During cranking 50-55 is perfectly normal. I installed a gauge b/c I wanted to keep an eye on the system to make sure I wasn't starting to clog my filter. It's not a bad diagnostic tool either.

EDIT: the lip seals are designed to hold back fluid pressure, the valve cover doesn't have a lip seal, and it's not immersed in oil. Therefore it seals with a basic rubber "O-ring style" seal b/c that's all it needs.

[Oricle]

One thing I must say is it's suprising a shop is willing to post on here and help you out the way they are.

Props to them.

[djwimbo]

it's good business. We did the same thing when I worked for Toyota.
Making the customer happy is one of the primary goals of a dealership.

[Affinitive]

Thanx Mr. or Mrs Oricle

I don't want this to be a wit matching game here but I do feel a bit of need to defend myself. BTW - I'm just a one man show here. It's like I'm employee of the month,......every month. LOL (or maybe not so LOL)

No no Immo 3 in his car.

As for the jet suction Pump. Yes it is basicly a metered orfice tube, but it also has two rubber diaphrams inside to regulate crankcase venting proportinaly to manifold vacuum. and amongst all the euro car guys in my side of the industry, the repair and service side that is, it is a very well known fact that these things cause excessive oil leaks and oil consumption mainly. trust me, I have taken plenty of B5 and C5 chassis cars using 1+ liters every 1000 miles and brought them back to the normal 1/4 - 1/2 liter every 1000miles of consumption with a stupid little 30 dollar part. I did make a mistake though, early, only early 2.7T's strapped to automatic gearboxes (5HP19 transmissions) also used this gadget as well. Though in general, all 2.7T's also have very weak crankcase vent set ups as well. Kinda tuff to sell crankcase vent hose assemblies every tune up. So long story short, at 167K on the ticker, you really should replace that little gadget. Every tune up(spark plug change) for that fact Trust me. As for the updated # ending in "D". The size of the diaphrams seem to be the same and only a minor difference in overall shape. ????????? I guess you choose which one you want. About 50 bucks from a dealer or about 36 from www.audiporschevwparts.com

And not to be a crying whining little b!tch, but to touch back on the fuel thing. I never suggested that the tank pressure would be enough to run the car, but it will be enough to create one or two psi of pressure in the rail. And yes, it will be enough to allow a couple of drops to drizzle through the injectors. Especially 8 year old injectors with 120k of wear and tear. According to roger, he had cranked the engine quite a bit before ever putting it on a tow truck. Cranked it to a point where it wouldn't even try to sputter. So when the car rolls off the tow truck and I crank it and it briefly sputters and I loosen the fuel line to find a little fuel spraying from the loose flare nut, then the only explaination is what I mentioned, which is what I typically see when these pumps go bad and the car gets towed in. So I appologise if I didn't phrase or explain that correctly. But to reply to the statement of Mr. 2.7T Car, yes, fuel injector will drizzle a little fuel with only .5 - 2 psi best case scenario. Again, especially 8 year old 120K injectors. Seen it a few times with injectors hooked up to cleaning/service machines. So my appologise to Mr. 2.7T Car, but it is not ludicrous. I should have just phrased/explained it differently to avoid the misunderstanding. Sorry.

One more side note. K&N filters and any filter element using oil to catch particles is the best way to ruin Air Mass Meters on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of dyno results and all the K&N claims are nothing but a bunch of bullsh!t. The air filter element doesn't become an issue untill you get into engines consuming more 350 g/s of air. Me and all my colleagues and dealers will not warranty these Bosch Air Mass Meters if it's behind a K&N filter. Besides that, if they were that great of filters, companies like Audi and BMW would be using them from the factory. Think about how much money BMW could save on their free maintenance programs that come with the first 50,000 miles on their cars if they used these things. Nope, they still use regualr filters to maintain performance and reduce Air Mass Meter warranty claims even though BMW is paying to put air filters in their customers cars every oil change they have to eat for the first 50K. Granted, it's only 3 oil changes but with millions of cars, they would save a boat load of money if they only had to pay their techs to clean them reusable filters instead of replacing the regualr filters. And trust me, ask a BMW tech, them filters are always needing to be changed every 15K,...... LOL.
Just a heads up on that. Think of it whatever you like.

Back to Roger's situation -

Looking at it from my perspective here and why I'm so persistant here on this issue (BTW, Poor Roger, he probably hates my guts by now,....LOL). I'm not a "Tunner" guy. I have no desire to be. There's nothing wrong with being a tunner/enthusiast guy, nothing at all. In fact, it's down right cool. I want to run a regular repair/service shop dealing with all the daily drivers out there, keeping them on the road for 200,000 miles, the fahrfegnuegens that is. That said, I deal with completely different problems than the tuner/enthusiast guys often times. That said, a lot of different approaches and solutions from my perpective. And to rub my own eego a bit, I work very hard and pay a lot of money to stay ahead of the learning curve when it comes to dealing with these cars and keeping up with the technology needed to properly service and diagnose these things. And believe me, when it comes to VW's and Audi's, I know my sh!t, very well for that fact. Given the course of this thread, many people would wonder wether I sent roger in the right direction with the fuel pump and all (preferrably I would like to have taken care of it myself, but that's another issue irrelevant at this point). NO ONE has accused me of anything, and I myself am more curious than ever to find out exactly what's going on, but at this point I feel the need to defend myself and help as much as possible for the sake of protecting my reputation. Again half the problems stem form me approaching Roger as a regular customer when realisticly he's more suited for Jason and Donnie at Addict Motorsports considering the tunner/enthusiast mentality. Again, nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. In fact. more pros than cons. But again, I'm concerned about my reputation and I can appreciate the fact that roger is obviously not the average joe blow who knows nothing, so I feel obligated to help and prove my findings on the pump if need be considering everything from my perspective. If I'm that annoying and Roger is PO'ed enough to a point where he wants me to fvck off, then I certainly will if he says to do so. But again, I feel obligated to help. I really wish I could just look at the car again as it's most likely just another rudementary issue, from my perspective at least, but it gets tuff when trying to help and guide through a forum. That said, I certainly had no intentions of starting a tiff with any of you other guys, but i guess I was asking for it when coming on your guy's turf. I'm sorry and just ask you folks understand me wanting to look out for my reputation.

Jeeeeeeeeeesus, I'm one long winding son of a bean. good thing I type quick.
LOL

C

[AWDios]

Ok I feel the need to address Collin's concern's directly. I want to say that I mean no slams, or negative press towards him or his shop. Like he said, he's a repair/maintenance shop. I do think you know your stuff, this just may happen to be a bad instance of the car being a confusing as all hell POS. Anyways, Collin seems to approach things more like a dealership would, as opposed to the independent mechanics I'm used to dealing with. I don't doubt your knowledge or your quality of work, and honestly would love to do business with you, being that you're less than a mile from my work, which would be really convenient. The reason I didn't take this to Jason at AMD, is a do see them as a tuner shop, and though I'm into modifying just about everything I own (yes my Hyundai of old even saw some work) this car is a daily commuter for my wife, and I have an off-road truck project and my Celica track car project as well as the number one source of draining my wallet, the House project, that always get priority, hence why the only thing done to it is a turbo timer, rims and some audizine stickers. That being said, I know enough non-tuner shops that charge around to $30-40 less an hour, and seem to have similar levels of knowledge, skills and tools, so I really just can't justify doing business with your shop unless you're down to negotiate your price a bit more aggressively. And for sure I do appreciate your willingness to throw out ideas here and try to help through this.

Newest update. We skipped on pulling codes, as my dad just went out and replaced the crank sensor. Damn thing still not starting, so unless I can come up with some sort of new idea to try tonight, it'll get towed somewhere tomorrow and I'll be giving up.

[Affinitive]

Yes, 120 an hour is high for an independent shop but not real far out of line considering the type of cars we're talking about. As for the general repair/service shops working on anything with wheels, I couldn't care less what and how they do things. And believe, by the time the customers get done paying for their learning curve to figure out how to work on these cars, I often times end up being cheaper. Unfortunately because of all these general repair shops claiming to be experts in anything with wheels, I often times have to clean up the mess those shops leave behind and charge for none the less. The reason I'm at 120 is mainly due to the fact that I don't charge people for 5 hours of time when you and I know damn well the job can be in 3 and should be done in 3, as an example. So the way I structure my estimates, like I did with yours, is to put the work groups together based on what the labor guides call for in terms of # of hours and then discount the excess labor. So the discount I put on your estimate of 310 was because the high labor guide times and to help a little on parts. A couple of parts there had some good margines. Yes, I did present everything to you including the Fuel level sender since it's already outlived it's life expectancy and the Air Mass Meter because it's practically a miracle if it's still working properly along with a bunch of other little things. I didn't want to leave with you with a new surprise after the fact and leave you PO'ed at me but rather advise you of the likely problem which is likely to become apparent after correcting fuel delivery issues. Has to do with the fuel trim values and so forth.

The part where I got irritated was when I felt as though I never even got a chance to explain what just the pump and filter would cost. Maybe I'm wrong but I never got a chance to explain that I would only charge you for 1 hour of time to install the pump and filter when the "Book Time" for the pump alone is 1.8 hours and .4 hours for the filter. That's because my experience and skills make 1 hor feasable. I can guarantee you that no other shop will budge hardly at all for the 1.8 and every shop I've worked at won't even think about the famous B5 filter for less than 1 hour. Yes, I got the trick down for the filter. Yes I know it all seems to be almost too honest and it's no secret that that techs are expected to maintain 150 - 200 % effiecency rates because the all shops inflate the # of hours neede for repairs. I agree, it's BS, but this stupid game is the only reason shops don't itemise 150 - 200 bucks an hour on work orders. Really, shops are charging 150 - 200 bucks an hour but diguise it with some stupid game. And you know what, they have to because the huge overhead that shops have. That's why it's so important to find the little guy like me who's overhead is low enough to be honest and my experience and virtually countless factory tools allows me to be effiecient enough to do it. Back to the estimates, i structure them that way to make sure customers understand the value their getting and it doesn't take a genius to figure that that some charging 2 hours at 90 - 100 bucks is more expensive than me charging you 120 for the 1 hour actually involved. Not to mention the free check out and inspection. One of the reasons I do so good and have such a high ticket average is because I don't charge those flat rate hours for "Diagnostics" when really it took me all but 5 minutes to varify a failed pump. The inspection and time putting together an estimate took longer than that. To this day, I have only had to charge a couple of people diagnostic time because they had very weird and unusual problems to track down. My customers also understand the value of my services and offers and many do spend the money to care of most everything in one go-around because they understand that spending a little extra up front saves a lot more down the road. Again though, my customers are not DIY'ers and that's where I screwed up in approaching you like one of my custumers. I should have estimated the pump and filter and advised of the other issues without putting numbers together. I misread you, I'm sorry. To be honest, if you were not forum savy kind of guy, I would have never given it a second thought. I don't say that to be disrespectful. As a business owner, I'm obviously concerned about people perception of me. I know you don't mean to any disrespect either, but people will draw conclusions based on your perpective and but alot of this could have been avoided had the car not been hauled out of here as soon as you heard the worst case scenario on your car. I really do wish we could have discussed the options needed for your particular situation. Again, I feel I never got that opportunity cause I didn't approach you the way I should have. And I also felt as though I might have better success here in you'r guy's playground (not quite panning out the way i wanted LOL)

Tell ya what, we could go back and forth and back and forth and you're a busy man with all the free towing in the world and your wife needs a car to get to work. Let me check out the car. Like I told you the day you walked into my office, there's nothing complicated about your car from my perpective and experience, and I don't mind at all going through a rudementary check out at no charge if it means further building a good reputation and prooving my good business ethics. I had no reason to believe that your starting problem was more involved than a fuel pump. Unfortunately that's how it goes sometimes, you have to issolate and correct one problem to find the next. I will find your problem and if it turns out to be something you can handle, great, you didn't have to spend more more to figure out what's going on and get you car going again. Hey maybe you might even consider letting me take car of the issues too involved for you. BONUS and maybe if your happy by the end of all this, the situation and this long thread might just turn out to be the most valuable and positive advertising I could have ever dreamed of :). Besides, worst case scenario, you just walk away and I'm the idiot.

You've got my number. There's no hard feelings what so ever. let's just get you car going again.

THANX

C

Sorry about all the bad spelling and skipped words. Type too quick for my own good

[AWDios]

It's all good. It wasn't the price that you gave me over the phone that scared me off, it was simply the fact that I figured it was a job that I could DIY (and I did). Money is too tight to not save a couple bucks when I can. Trust me I'm keeping the other items in mind, and am working on a few of those as well.

I will keep your offer in mind, and will let you know if I decide to bring it back out there.

[djwimbo]

That's a lot of reading.

$120 an hour seems like a lot here, but you over by the west coast. That's a whole different world.

I know how you feel to fix others mistakes. I'm replacing an engine in a customer's car right now b/c somebody thought the water pump was leaking. One water pump, a week passed and now his engine is toast b/c of the coolant and oil mixing from the heads warping. I could save the engine, mill the heads, etc. but it's cheaper to get a perfectly good used engine.

Collin is right about the K&N filters. MAF's don't like oiled filters. Toyota doesn't warranty MAF's on cars equipped with K&N's anymore. If that tells you anything.
However, VW has used K&N dry filters. My buddies MK3 had an OEM air filter in it that had K&N's name on it. Either way, my reference was towards the K&N oil filters.

And yes, for the 167K I should replace a lot of things. I have a new water pump, and timing kit(idlers, belt,....) in the garage, but I don't have time to put it on. The Jet Suction pump would be a good item to replace. You sure the AEB has one? Either way, I go through ~0.1qt of oil in 3,000 miles so I'm not too worried about it right now.
Either way, I gotta give you props for knowing exactly what's inside of it.

I've re-learned some things since I quit working for dealerships. #1 Aftermarket parts doesn't always mean the car is "hacked". I was programmed to basically screw the customer for anything that had been customized or modified. I've learned since then.

I came off a bit more aggressive than I intended to. I don't like hearing about other people gettin screwed, and I now know that I didn't have the whole story.
Whoever and however the issue is solved, I wish you the best of luck.

We all have our own techniques to get the job done, I'll leave you to yours as I'll keep mine. From one trained, certified and experienced tech to another.

[AWDios]

Just for shits and giggles, undid the fitting on the fuel rail again. It sprayed out of the engine bay, and checked again for spark, no spark. Pulled the codes and here's what I've got.

VCDS Version: Release 805.0
Data version: 20080625

Tuesday,01,July,2008,19:39:04:32551

Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 25 35 37 45 55 56 57 67 75 76 77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 4B0-906-018.lbl
Part No: 4B0 906 018 CH
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0002
Coding: 16201
Shop #: WSC 13367

2 Faults Found:
17072 - ECM Power Relay Load Circuit: (J271): Open Circuit
P0688 - 35-00 - -
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30: Voltage too Low
P1602 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8E0-614-111-EDS.lbl
Part No: 8E0 614 111 A
Component: ABS/EDS 5.3 QUATTRO D10
Shop #: BB 24334

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 8D0 820 043 P
Component: A4 KLIMAAUTOMAT D58
Coding: 00140
Shop #: WSC 63351

3 Faults Found:
00792 - A/C Pressure Switch (F129)
31-00 - Open or Short to Ground
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-00 - Signal too Low
01273 - Fresh Air Blower (V2)
17-10 - Control Difference - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8D0-959-655-AI8.lbl
Part No: 8D0 959 655 G
Component: Airbag Front+Kopf 2002
Coding: 00304
Shop #: WSC 63351

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 8D0 920 980 Q
Component: B5-KOMBIINSTR. VDO D12
Coding: 02244
Shop #: WSC 63351

1 Fault Found:
00771 - Fuel Level Sensor (G)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 35: Centr. Locks Labels: 8D0-862-257.lbl
Part No: 8L0 862 257 N
Component: CV-Pump, Alarm, RC D16
Coding: 16140
Shop #: WSC 63351

7 Faults Found:
01371 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Driver's Side
35-00 - -
01374 - Alarm triggered by Terminal 15
35-00 - -
01370 - Alarm triggered by Interior Monitoring
35-00 - -
01368 - Alarm triggered by Luggage Compartment Switch
35-00 - -
00991 - Interior Lights
28-00 - Short to Plus
00955 - Key 1
09-00 - Adaptation Limit Surpassed
00956 - Key 2
09-00 - Adaptation Limit Surpassed

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 45: Inter. Monitor Labels: 4B0-951-173.lbl
Part No: 4B0 951 173
Component: Innenraumueberw. D03
Coding: 00101
Shop #: WSC 63351

2 Faults Found:
01380 - Alarm triggered by Anti-Theft Sensor; Rear Left
35-00 - -
01381 - Alarm triggered by Anti-Theft Sensor; Rear Right
35-00 - -

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

[djwimbo]

So why did your alarm get tripped so many times?

I'd get a wiring diagram and figure out what the open circuit is on the ECM power relay. The power supply to terminal 30 might be from the batt voltage getting low from cranking the shit out of the car. Worth a look to see if there's any corrosion in the connectors or frays in the insulation up to that point.

[Affinitive]

HHHMMM -
That's some sh!t for luck. Pardon the french.
Yes, the battery did get real low somewhere between the the car getting towed out of here and back to you or while you had it.
They did send a regular to truck the second time so the driver had to use a dolley and I'm wondering if he had turned the hazard lights on during the tow. Shouldn't be an issue normally but when I tested the battery it tested good but needing a charge so the hazard lights would explain it. That's the terminal 30 fault. Just ignore that one.
Though the fault more concerning for the "Main Relay" is something of concern. Irognically (of course, right), that relay supplies power to the ignition coils and various components inside the ECM. Fairly problematic relay to begin with and considering the age of it, it wouldn't surprise me that it has failed due to the battery voltage getting all screwy. Probably would not have been an issue if the battery hadn't gotton too low or if the key hadn't been turned on with screwy battery voltage. Don't mean to rub it in. Probably need to thank the tow truck drivers as they will often turn on the hazard lights when towing with a regular truck and dolley. He had no ill intentions obviously, just sh!t luck.

The relay is inside the ECM box on the driver side partly tucked under the windshield and wiper arm trim. Take the screws out, and yes, the one under the wiper arm trim can be a PITA to take out. You should see 2 relays. Both will be about 1" cubical box shapes. The one towards the back will be the one you're after. Get the number off of it and I should be able to you one same day if it's before 2 o'clock or dealer should have them as well. Pretty cheap little gadgets.

Did you have to jump start the car???
Just for future reference when jumping a car (because it's easy to fry half the modules in a VW/AUDI car), always wiggle the jumper cables real good when hooked to the battery to insure good clean connection and leave the jumper car idling while hooked up for several minutes, prefereably at least ten minutes to make sure the weak battery gets enough charges to avoid major current spikes and fluctuations when trying to start the dead car. Doesn't seem to be too much of an issue with B5 chassis Audi's but horrible problem with B5 passat. Can't even tell you how many times I've looked at B5 passats for weird electrical problems just to find half the modules in the car fried. Then asking the customer wether they had recently jumpstarted the car. The response is always," Uhh yeah, and all these problems weren't there before jumping it." Then having to educate them on jumpstarting a car.

Anyways, getting off topic here. Get one of them relays and make sure the battery gets charged before turning anything on. If you need to jump it, then do as I said above. You'll also need to readapt the throttle. No big deal. may have to let the engine fully warm by idling for a while (which you should do anyways because of the battery). Then, with the enigne off but key on, access the ECM and go to measuring block 060. Should have a field showing "ADAPT OK' or ADAPT ERROR", regardless, click the icon/button that says "SWITCH TO BASIC SETTINGS". The throttle adaptation will start. If it doesn't complete or shows error, then highlight the 060 box and hit enter and possibly hit it repeatedly as it's going through as sometimes throttles don't like to adapt when they get old and worn. Only do that if it won't take the adaptation normally.

The fuel level sender fault in the instrument cluster, that's my bad. Turned the key on while testing power supply to the pump and had the connector back there unhooked. Just clear it.

All the central locking and climate control faults. Don't worry about those, just clear them out. You definitely don't wana get into climate control issues either,.......and please don't make me either

That's it, right.......Well you got the fan clutch and belt tensioner. BTW, I trust you figured what to do with the tensioner I left in the car, right. Sorry about that. I figured I wanted to make sure you saw how bad that pulley bearing really is and it takes all but 1 - 2 minutes to put back on. As for the fan clutch, that thing is horrible and very important now that's it's hot out. that little secondary electric fan won't last long when having to work double time. Like I mentioned, you don't have to pull the bumper off and front core support loose if you can separate the pulley from the clutch and unhook the upper hose from the pipe to pull the fan and clutch out. Takes a pretty weird little tool to do so and takes about an hour to do. The tensioner and pulley are equally important but if need be, replace the tensioner and hopefully the fan clutch won't granade or lock up breaking the plastic fan in the process.

Let me know

djwimbo -
Yes the AEB does have it but not really a concern if your only using .1qt every 3000K. Actually, you must be the 1 or 2 in a million with such low consumption. Replacing the thing at this point will probably add more consumption,......LOL.
I thought you meant K&N AIR filter, sorry about that. I guess I just like the sound of my own voice, typed voice that is.
No worries though, no hard feelings at all. Besides, we all have to rattle each others cages once in a while to keep things exciting, right. Hope Mr 2.7T car thinks the same. I don't mean "Mr 2.7T Car" as an insult. That's just how I refer them and the S4's the sam e way I refer to Porsche's as "P-Cars".

I might just keep starggeling around here if you folks don't mind. As long as I'm not always so long winded, ..... right.
Thanx

C

[AWDios]

Battery was charged once it got to my dad's house, but it's probably been run down again anyways.

Left the car locked with the windows cracked, so the wind probably blew setting off the alarm.

Collin, I'm going to give you a call about the relay.

[AWDios]

Relay in, still no start.

[Affinitive]

Does it have Spark now???
Did you get the battery charged up???
Did you run the throttle adaptation???

C

[mike-2ptzero]

Relay in, still no start.

New relay and did you pull all of the ECM fuses to make sure they were good?

[AWDios]

No Spark,
Battery Charged,
No throttle adaptation,
fuses all good as far as I can see.

[mike-2ptzero]

No throttle adapt?

[Affinitive]

My offer still stands.

C

[MattzWarsteiner]

Man-oh-Manischewitz. You've got some patience with this so far, man! If you are not ready to give up yet, try my low-cost, minimal pain troubleshooting method.


0---------------------0-----------------------------0
Easy First, let's call it Level 1:

Pull the codes from the ECU and please post if different than originals

Clear the codes

Try to start the car again and post new codes if any. Try several times to allow for slow code triggers in the ECU.

The check engine light should come on during the bulb test which happens at key on or Start position. If no light we have a good clue.

If that ECU power relay open circuit shows again, you are narrowing things down maybe. Time for a closer look and help from those among us with access to a diagram.
0---------------------0-----------------------------0



0---------------------0-----------------------------0
Level 2:
Disconnect the battery and charge it fully *1 < don't use fast charge while connected. Electronics don't like this.

*Note 1: Battery disconnect will rule out module reset issues that come with low battery voltages.

Pull all four plugs, sniff test and clean them. If they are black or wet you should a) replace them << best, b) have a shop clean and test them, c) DIY clean them with brake cleaner or acetone and blow dry with shop air.

With plugs in, reconnect the battery and try to start the car

Still No Start:
Check the rail pressure again during start attempts. Rig a gauge. A mere squirt test may not be enough. Post the PSI/Bar readings you get. Should be at least 15-20psi.

Check for spark by pulling a plug and grounding the base to the block using a jumper cable or radio shack alligator clips or a piece of wire with 3-4" stripped back on one end - wrap around the plug threads or fashion a ground from foil if you have to. FIRMLY connect other end of whatever you use to metal on block or head. Crank and watch. **2

**Note 2: If the coils have metal rings where they bolt onto the head, you may have to ground these to get a proper spark test. And to confirm a good connection, use an ohmmeter or test light to verify the plug shell is grounded with the test rig.

Got Sparks?

If you do, then this may be a slipped timing belt << compression , fuel quality << fuel, strange ECU/electrical problem << ignition.

If still no fire, key off and pull the harness connector off a coil. With the key on, there should be 12V on at least one terminal and 0V or ground on another. A lack of voltage here points to a problem with the ECU, power relay, wiring, blown fuse or ignition switch.
0---------------------0-----------------------------0



GooD LucK

[MattzWarsteiner]

^^ Just to be clear on the post ^^

I know I am offering only a couple of new ideas in this thread for AWDios car, but thought a lean step-by-step would be helpful.