Springs?

[Firefighter637]

I have been thinking about whether or not I want coilovers which I know are the best but cost $ or springs. I have the sport susension now and want to lower my car to just above the tire. Was wondering which springs I should get or just hold out for co's. Car only has 30K miles on it. Opinions please!

[kwimberly]

Was wondering which springs I should get or just hold out for co's.

How about these ABT ones that are only $130 shipped - use with your stock sport shocks.

[velocipedio]

I have been thinking about whether or not I want coilovers which I know are the best but cost $ or springs. I have the sport susension now and want to lower my car to just above the tire. Was wondering which springs I should get or just hold out for co's. Car only has 30K miles on it. Opinions please!

Kiss your handling goodbye.

[demea]

Kiss your handling goodbye.

???
Why's that? Shouldnt it be better?

[El_Chapusca]

Depending On What Spring And Shocks You Choose, You Can Increase Your Performance At Handling The More The Cars Is Lower The Better Hanling You Will Achive.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

neuspeed race/bilstein shocks is the best way to go!

[JBM]

I have H&R springs that will be for sale soon. They are nice not to harsh but you would need to get the appropiate stocks.

[mxrz]

neuspeed race/bilstein shocks is the best way to go!

Good joke.

[mxrz]

???
Why's that? Shouldnt it be better?

Aftermarket lowering springs mismatched with OE shocks, will not only NOT improve handling, it'll make it worse. Guaranteed.

[Firefighter637]

Aftermarket lowering springs mismatched with OE shocks, will not only NOT improve handling, it'll make it worse. Guaranteed.

Why is that? Shouldn't changing the spring just lower it? Keeping the OE shock will keep the ride the same but riding lower and maybe a little stiffer I would think.

[tdmopar59]

i am still pretty new to the euro car world... but i know when it came to suspension for my old truck it was... "you get what you pay for" that is why i think you may be better off holding out until you can get the coilovers...

[kwimberly]

I e-mailed the seller, and he said that these ABT's aren't very aggressive - should get 35k miles out of stock non-sport OEM springs.

[aaaudiprotein]

If u got sport suspension already, with getting aftermarket springs you might see improvement in handling. If u got base suspension i dunno :))) OEM shocks cant handle that much of abuse.

[aaaudiprotein]

I e-mailed the seller, and he said that these ABT's aren't very aggressive - should get 35k miles out of stock non-sport OEM springs.

Those ABT springs i think are Sport ones, and they are almost the same as H&R sport. I dont know about 35k though.

[Firefighter637]

If u got sport suspension already, with getting aftermarket springs you might see improvement in handling. If u got base suspension i dunno :))) OEM shocks cant handle that much of abuse.

I looke yesterday when I was installing my snub and saw that the shocks were red which I was told is the sport suspension. So I was thinking since I like the ride now, changing the springs to lower it and give it a little more of a stiff ride would be perfect. But I am getting mixed opinions as usual. I am looking at the H&R springs.

[aaaudiprotein]

U got USP right? They all come with the sport suspension.
The lower you go, the more abuse your shocks get. Sport shocks were designed to handle the sport springs (oem), so if u go with the race springs you still can ride with the stock sport suspension but like for 10k or so... It also depends on how many miles your already got on your car. But u never know for sure if they gona fail at 1k miles at 2k or at 15k after the springs install.

[mxrz]

Why is that? Shouldn't changing the spring just lower it? Keeping the OE shock will keep the ride the same but riding lower and maybe a little stiffer I would think.

You'd think that, but it's wrong. The stiffness of the ride is a function of the shock (the compression resistance in particular) not the spring. The OE shock cannot keep the ride the same because it is designed to operate within a certain amount of throw, and it is valved to match the spring. If you install a shorter spring with a higher rate, you will under damp the suspension and create excessive oscillation. In an extreme case, if you run over a speed bump or a pot hole at a high speed, an under damped suspension will bottom out, at which point you run out of compression energy absorption, so the wheel bounces back down, and creates oscillation at a difference frequency to the natural oscillation frequency of the chassis. The result is several cycles of oscillation, during which, you have little to no traction...

Coilvers are almost always properly matched, even though perfect matching is practically impossible to achieve as it is based on very complex mathematical formulas, and without upgrading a score of other suspension components and proper corner balancing, even the best coilovers available will not be critically damped to match the car. But I digress, most C/Os are very good for the level of performance people can extract from a street car. This is why they are always a better solution than springs and universal shocks, that are valved in a compromising way to work “somewhat” well with a wide variety of spring rates and lengths. But proper compression and rebound adjustment is still critical. Many C/O kits can be adjusted way out of spec, and over damping can be as dangerous as under damping, as it overloads the tires, and street tires aren’t the stickiest out there, so once again, you’re losing grip. This is what makes Stasis kits very good, they pre-adjust the shocks in the most optimal way, and publish recommended height adjustment and alignment specs. And it is best to stick to those numbers, for best performance, even if you sacrifice a bit of that so much sought after "slammed" look...

[mxrz]

If u got sport suspension already, with getting aftermarket springs you might see improvement in handling.

Classic misconception. Uninformed people confuse good handling with less body roll and brake squat. Lower, higher rate springs will always give you that, but it's not even close to being a good indication of good handling. It's more of a false sense of confidence.

[aaaudiprotein]

^^^ Read my last post :)))
I meant getting sport springs with his sport suspension will be ok, but not for too long.

[demea]

Classic misconception. Uninformed people confuse good handling with less body roll and brake squat. Lower, higher rate springs will always give you that, but it's not even close to being a good indication of good handling. It's more of a false sense of confidence.

Sure, I hear what your saying and I'm sure there's alot of data to back this up.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^so why is it a joke?? please explain, i don't understand why half the Audi World uses this setup and sees a big improvement in handling and they're all imagining it?? i understand that they aren't coilovers, but they still are a decent improvement, matched with an RS4 sway bar, it should be much better!

[velocipedio]

???
Why's that? Shouldnt it be better?

No. If you lower any more than a stock sport suspension would, you will need to adjust camber and caster and you will run into problems with bump steer, irregular tire wear, and premature wear on components. Lower is only better if you know what other changes you need to make in order to correct for the deficiencies created by lowering your MacPherson-strut based suspension.

Simply buying coilovers or adding lowering springs will NOT give you better handling. The car may feel stiffer in some cases, but it will handle worse. There is a trade off for everything when messing with suspension.

Coilovers can be a good investment, but only if you get a proper corner balance and tweak the rest of the suspension to correct for the new ride height and to dial in the exact suspension settings you want according to how you want your car to handle.

Audi engineers spend a long time tweaking suspensions, and they know a bit more about them than 99% of the "tunerz" on most message boards. Food for thought.

[velocipedio]

^^so why is it a joke?? please explain, i don't understand why half the Audi World uses this setup and sees a big improvement in handling and they're all imagining it?? i understand that they aren't coilovers, but they still are a decent improvement, matched with an RS4 sway bar, it should be much better!

They are imagining it. The springs are too low for correct suspension geometry and the shocks and springs weren't designed to work together.

Tell me what effect an RS4 swaybar has on your regular B6 suspension? The RS4 bar is dialed in to work in harmony with the rest of the RS4 suspension. You think slapping one of these on a regular B6 actually improves things? It only does so if you've dialed in the rest of the suspension to match.

Do you have any idea how complicated the suspension is on your Audi? Why would you throw random tuner parts at it?

The STOCK sport suspension is already more than most drivers on these boards can truly use. Read up on what happens when you lower a MacPherson strut-based suspension without properly accounting for those changes in other areas of the suspension. I guarantee a stock sport suspension handles and rides better than MANY of the aftermarket setups people use.

[mxrz]

^^so why is it a joke?? please explain, i don't understand why half the Audi World uses this setup and sees a big improvement in handling and they're all imagining it?? i understand that they aren't coilovers, but they still are a decent improvement, matched with an RS4 sway bar, it should be much better!

Because race springs are too low, even for Bilstein shocks. At such low ride heights, the suspension geometry is moving way out of optimal range, and when you go over bumps or take sharp corners, the wheels will tow-in or out (depending on the alignment), which becomes unpredictable, and if it starts happening in the back, it can seriously hurt stability and induce snap oversteer. Bump steer, suspension bottoming out, and tire edging (not riding on the full contact patch) all make for shitty handling and less traction.

And yes, people with this setup (hardly half of AW, way to exaggerate), are mostly imagining better handling, simply because they think less body roll, less suspension compliance = better handling. The sway bar upgrade is also a compromise. It helps reduce understeer, but at what expense, did you ever ask yourself that? I'll tell you what price you pay for less understeer; less traction from the rear wheels when cornering or when going over uneven surfaces. Maybe you should think about why some race cars, instead of having bigger/stiffer sway bars, don't have them... at all.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^LOL! dude c'mon, i'm not the first one who's done the RS4 sway bar, everyone notices a decent improvement! and well the Shocks Bilstein Sports, from their website states that it is made to work in harmony with any aftermarket spring setup! Why would AWE, Neuspeed, and ECS sell the springs with Bilsteins?? i never said the handling is as good as Coilovers, hell no, but it does give a decent improvement from sport suspension!

[AudiA4Turbo22]

Wow this is great! i buy the setup and now it's in the shop getting installed and in turn i'm ruining my car?? what the hell man? this really sucks, so my handling is gonna be worse?? this sux ass, the worst part is it's going to throw off my alignment all the time??

[mxrz]

Bilstein's definition of harmony was most likely coined by their marketing department, instead of the engineers. They "want" to sell the stuff, and they know most people will either A: not take their car to the limit, or B: won't even know what's happening when they do, or C: will buy the PSS9 instead.

[velocipedio]

^^LOL! dude c'mon, i'm not the first one who's done the RS4 sway bar, everyone notices a decent improvement!

Perception and reality are two different things. What improvment? The bar was not even designed to be used with the suspension you've installed it on. What changes, exactly, were you looking to dial in with that bar. Why did you chose that bar specifically?

and well the Shocks Bilstein Sports, from their website states that it is made to work in harmony with any aftermarket spring setup! Why would AWE, Neuspeed, and ECS sell the springs with Bilsteins?? i never said the handling is as good as Coilovers, hell no, but it does give a decent improvement from sport suspension!

Do you know the spring rates for all of those springs? Are they all the same rate? Progressive or linear? Yet the magical Bilstein sport is valved from the factory to work optimally with them all? I think not.

[jcg05c]

Those ABT springs i think are Sport ones, and they are almost the same as H&R sport. I dont know about 35k though.

See i want H&R spring for my car. And these abt ones Champion are selling if there are pretty much the same would be an awesome deal. But No one can vouche for the ride and pics of theeir b6 with these ABT springs on car.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

OK WELL THEN WHAT BAR DO U RECOMMEND?? i guess i'm a noob!

[velocipedio]

OK WELL THEN WHAT BAR DO U RECOMMEND?? i guess i'm a noob!

I recommend taking driving courses, taking your car to the track, and over time figuring out exactly what handling characteristics you like and don't like. Then, you can figure out what you might need to dial in the characteristics you want.

For street use, the stock sport set up is quite good; it's neutral and controlled. You aren't getting anywhere near the suspension limits on the street. Buy some quality summer tires (michellin PS2 or equivalent) and have fun.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^all i really want is less body roll, because in terms of understeer and oversteer the balance was quite decent! and a little less understeer, i deffinately feel it on curves!

[velocipedio]

^^all i really want is less body roll, because in terms of understeer and oversteer the balance was quite decent! and a little less understeer, i deffinately feel it on curves!

1. To feel the understeer present in the A4 setup, you'd really need to be on a track at track speeds. The understeer is almost non-existant on the road and easily controlled by adjusting throttle input.

2. If you have an S-line or sport pack car, body roll should be minimal. Good tires with stiff sidewalls should be all you need.

[Firefighter637]

If I want to drop it a couple of inches what should I do about that?

[Firefighter637]

This thread opened a big can on suspension!

[kwimberly]

If I want to drop it a couple of inches what should I do about that?

That's pretty much what I was going for in considering the springs with stock shocks. I thought it was the cheap and not-recommended way to do it - but if coilovers are considered unnecessary in light of the great OEM engineering - how else does one lower?

[aaaudiprotein]

Guys read 100x of threads about suspension setups. You are not gona compete in a track race where u need your car to be super puper balanced. You trying to make your car look better + better handling. But u loose that comfortable ride quality.
I agree with the guys above that springs/shocks wont make the car a track Queen, but diagree that its gonna be worse than OEM sport suspension in terms of handling of course, not ride comfort.
Rs4 sway bar is the cheapest and the best rear sway upgrade for the $$$. If u wanna spend more, go ahead and get H-sway bars.
if im wrong- plz prove that :)))
OEM sport suspension was of course a big +++, but it was designed for the optimal, first of all, comfort ride quaility, and then other sport purposes.
S4 and then RS4 are the super Sport versions of an A4 from the factory.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

ur telling me(i have 02 sport suspension) that my car should have very little body roll?? ur kidding right, if u take a moderate curve at 90mph, my car feels like it wants to float away! there is quite a bit of body roll, but is still not bad, i'm sure my upgrades should help with this a bit!

[diagnosticator]

Because race springs are too low, even for Bilstein shocks. At such low ride heights, the suspension geometry is moving way out of optimal range, and when you go over bumps or take sharp corners, the wheels will tow-in or out (depending on the alignment), which becomes unpredictable, and if it starts happening in the back, it can seriously hurt stability and induce snap oversteer. Bump steer, suspension bottoming out, and tire edging (not riding on the full contact patch) all make for shitty handling and less traction.

And yes, people with this setup (hardly half of AW, way to exaggerate), are mostly imagining better handling, simply because they think less body roll, less suspension compliance = better handling. The sway bar upgrade is also a compromise. It helps reduce understeer, but at what expense, did you ever ask yourself that? I'll tell you what price you pay for less understeer; less traction from the rear wheels when cornering or when going over uneven surfaces. Maybe you should think about why some race cars, instead of having bigger/stiffer sway bars, don't have them... at all.

I agree, the correct method of controlling chassis lean in turns, is proper suspension geometry, and spring rate. I'm no suspension expert, but I do know the suspension can't work as it should when lowered a lot from stock ride height. BTW, it's mis stated in a couple of posts, the front suspension on our A4s is not a McPherson strut suspension. It looks similar in part, but is actually very different functionally.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^so Diagnosticator, do u consider the Neuspeed race's to be too low? all they do is lower my car by about .75" from my 02 sport suspension!