Camshaft & Crankshaft seals

[J-jizzle]

I recently started my timing belt DIY and during my next day off I'm going to finish it up. I purchased the the kit off ECS that came with the Cam and Crank seals, because I figured I would replace them while everything was off. I am worried though that I might mess up the timing getting the pullies off/on (after I put it a top dead center and get the old belt off).

Also should I use a impact wrench/gun to get the bolts Off and On (anyone know what the torque spes are) ? Whats the best way to get the old seals out?

Thanks for any help and any other suggestions.

[pondside36]

I bought them too just in case but mine weren't leaking so we didn't mess with them...

[dirtybrd]

Bingo. You might cause an issue by replacing them. I used the original 90k cams seals when I did my motor. I did replace them when I put in the cams. If you oils has been changed on the regular they shouldn't leak for a long time. If you insist on replacing them, I'd loosen the bolts before you remove the belt.

[J-jizzle]

Thanks for the replies. Ill just leave the stockers there then and have these for down the road.

[diagnosticator]

Bingo. You might cause an issue by replacing them. I used the original 90k cams seals when I did my motor. I did replace them when I put in the cams. If you oils has been changed on the regular they shouldn't leak for a long time. If you insist on replacing them, I'd loosen the bolts before you remove the belt.

I second that advice. To the OP, I recommend replacing the seals now. Do you have a Bentley? If not you can get a 3 day subscription for online access for about $30, and you can print as much as you want.

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/sho...ME01-01-001-04

[dougyfresh]

Crank seal? Are you referring to the front main seal? If it is not leaking I suggest not touching it. You need a 1200ft-lb impact gun (or something of that caliber) to get the crank bolt off and on. You also need a new crank bolt. Not worth it and I haven't heard of anyone doing it during a timing belt install.

The cam seals? If they are not leaking I would leave them alone as well. In order to do that, right, you need the cam tensioner tool to tighten down that chain so you can pull the cams (to do the rear cam seal under the VVT tensioner). Not worth it if you are not sure how to time your cams back up and time the whole engine back up. The front cam seals need the reluctor ring and TB cog to come off. The front cam cap also has to be loosened and/or removed.

[CO AVANT]

Crank seal? Are you referring to the front main seal? If it is not leaking I suggest not touching it. You need a 1200ft-lb impact gun (or something of that caliber) to get the crank bolt off and on. You also need a new crank bolt. Not worth it and I haven't heard of anyone doing it during a timing belt install.

All you need is a long ass breaker bar and yo guns

[wolfdog]

Yea, I too bought the ECS timing ultimate plus timing belt kit that includes the camshaft seal and crankshaft seal. I was told by the dealership I had a cam seal leak so I was planning on doing both of them with Clint. I'm hoping this isn't going to be too much trouble.

[J-jizzle]

Crank seal? Are you referring to the front main seal? If it is not leaking I suggest not touching it. You need a 1200ft-lb impact gun (or something of that caliber) to get the crank bolt off and on. You also need a new crank bolt. Not worth it and I haven't heard of anyone doing it during a timing belt install.

The cam seals? If they are not leaking I would leave them alone as well. In order to do that, right, you need the cam tensioner tool to tighten down that chain so you can pull the cams (to do the rear cam seal under the VVT tensioner). Not worth it if you are not sure how to time your cams back up and time the whole engine back up. The front cam seals need the reluctor ring and TB cog to come off. The front cam cap also has to be loosened and/or removed.

I was only planing to do the front cam seal only but I think today Im just goin to get this back on the road and worry bout those when they go out, like you guys said.

[dougyfresh]

All you need is a long ass breaker bar and yo guns

Doesn't work. I've tried on two engines and couldn't get them loose. Had to go to the VW dealer and have them use their impact gun. I am a weakling in the upper body thanks to my cycling career.

Clint had the same problem with his engine when he dismantled it.

[CO AVANT]

yo gunz ain't big nough then

[dougyfresh]

yo gunz ain't big nough then

the ladies don't seem to mind

[CO AVANT]

No but seriously, it is a total bitch to get that bolt off with a breaker bar. The breaker bar I was using was like 3ft long too...

[wolfdog]

Hmm, I have to do the cam seal. you guys are making me think the crank seal isn't worth the trouble now. I'd really prefer to do it while I'm in there, though. Clint, how much does that impact gun of yours have in it?

EDIT: New question: can someone tell me more about the crank seal? Precise location or anything else you want to share. Thanks.

[CO AVANT]

This is a mean impact gun. Good 'ol Harbor Freight...

[AudiA4_20T]

Hmm, I have to do the cam seal. you guys are making me think the crank seal isn't worth the trouble now. I'd really prefer to do it while I'm in there, though. Clint, how much does that impact gun of yours have in it?

EDIT: New question: can someone tell me more about the crank seal? Precise location or anything else you want to share. Thanks.

Well Reilly broke it but Im borrowing my friend Jons gun this week.

We can do the cam seal but like Doug said, the crank bolt is a BITCH

[diagnosticator]

I was only planing to do the front cam seal only but I think today Im just goin to get this back on the road and worry bout those when they go out, like you guys said.

Sure, doing the cam seals/crank seal is optional now, and is a matter of preference. The factor to consider is the possibility that the seal/s will fail at some point in time in the future (assume usually sooner than later,) requiring the timing belt be removed again to replace the seals. The difficulty of the tasks involved depends your skills and experience level. BTW, there is no radial shaft seal on the timing adjuster end of the cams.

[wolfdog]

EDIT: New question: can someone tell me more about the crank seal? Precise location or anything else you want to share. Thanks.

Anyone?

[diagnosticator]

Well Reilly broke it but Im borrowing my friend Jons gun this week.

We can do the cam seal but like Doug said, the crank bolt is a BITCH

Honestly guys, the key thing is holding the crank sprocket using a tool similar to the special tool shown in the Bentley, a tool can be made by gas cutting some 1/4" steel plate, or 1/4" aluminum plate cut out using a band saw, shaped like the tool shown in the Bentley, and drilling a couple of holes to match the sprocket holes. The arm of the tool needs to be held by something on the engine, the snub mount will work fine for this. Then, a long 1/2" breaker bar and socket will loosen the bolt. Re-tightening the bolt needs to be torqued to 90 Nm, then turned another 90 degrees. With a little pre planning preparation, this is really not that big of a problem.

[diagnosticator]

Anyone?

The crank seal is directly under the timing belt drive sprocket on the front end of the crankshaft. It is installed in the seal carrier bolted to the front face of the engine block.

[wolfdog]

so it's under the sprocket at the very bottom of this photo, which is taken from the TB DIY:


Correct? Sorry, visualizing helps. I think that's right because that looks to be like a lock of some sort on the sprocket.

[diagnosticator]

The crankshaft seal is behind the sprocket circled in yellow.

[wolfdog]

Great, thanks.

[AudiA4_20T]

Larry, I got a new gun, but seriously its only 280ft lbs

you need 1000+ to get that crank bolt off, Jordan is crazy

[wolfdog]

Who's Jordan and why is he crazy?

[dougyfresh]

Clint.
John's method of making a tool that bolts to the four bolts on the crank TB sprocket is a good idea. The more I think about that suggestion the more I like it. You can make the handle sized appropriately so you can put a huge cast iron pipe over it to get more leverage (like you would a 1/2 drive breaker bar).

That is, if your crank seal is leaking. I understand John's argument of 'it could leak soon' but my attitude is if it ain't broke don't fix it. I guess because tearing down my front end to get to this crank is nothing for me to do. Its a big deal for other people which is why he's suggesting doing it while things are apart.

[CO AVANT]

Honestly guys, the key thing is holding the crank sprocket using a tool similar to the special tool shown in the Bentley, a tool can be made by gas cutting some 1/4" steel plate, or 1/4" aluminum plate cut out using a band saw, shaped like the tool shown in the Bentley, and drilling a couple of holes to match the sprocket holes. The arm of the tool needs to be held by something on the engine, the snub mount will work fine for this. Then, a long 1/2" breaker bar and socket will loosen the bolt. Re-tightening the bolt needs to be torqued to 90 Nm, then turned another 90 degrees. With a little pre planning preparation, this is really not that big of a problem.

Doug, this is how I did it. Forgot to mention I had an audi holding tool...

Who's Jordan and why is he crazy?

That's me. They think I was full of shit. Obviously I am not ;)

[dougyfresh]

Doug, this is how I did it. Forgot to mention I had an audi holding tool...

Forgot to mention a minor detail, huh



In that image above. The ? by the gas shock: I think that distance should be about 10mm (or 1cm). That provides adequate adjustment for the gas shock during normal operation.

[CO AVANT]

Forgot to mention a minor detail, huh

After 2 years of not messing with it, yeah

[sloweryucf]

So anyone got a pic location of the camshaft seal?

[dougyfresh]

So anyone got a pic location of the camshaft seal?

Its the seal behind the exhaust cam sprocket (top left) and the intake cam reluctor ring (top right behind that cover)


I have detailed pictures of the actual seal on the cams at home. I can upload them and add them to this post tonight.

You need to take both the exhaust cam sprocket and intake cam reluctor rings off to remove the seals. Its a full 360 rubber seal. Like the crankshaft seal, its your call on whether or not you want to do it. I've never replaced them in TB swaps I've done. The only time I've replaced them was when I build my new 2.0L stroker motor.

[wolfdog]

Here's what my car looked like while doing TB at 74.3k miles (leaking water pump):


Thanks Clint and Doug!