All you 3.0 guys who want power...

[AudiA4_20T]

2.7 manifolds = 2.8 manifolds = 3.0 manifolds

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=163483

Can someone do it ?

[pondside36]

Those guys aren't messing around... that could be a sick set up...

[dougyfresh]

Clint,
I'm sorry but your link goes to 40+ pages of info that I have been trying to read up on. My guess, based upon your equation (haha), is that your link would go to an image showing the physical differences (if any)?

I know the 2.8 cams are different than the 2.7 cams and work well with a twin GT set-up on a 2.7 or 3.0 (2.7 stroked) set-up.

[skeeball]

A large portion of that 40+ pages is garbage too. I know, I've been keeping track of the thread for weeks. A couple of guys are fabbing up manifolds and piping to single turbo their S4's. And then hopefully selling the hardware as a kit. This would bolt right up to a 3.0. The piping should be similar as well, if not the same.

You would definitely need to build the motor though.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^how about software??

[skeeball]

Custom ME7 tune or SEM.

[AudiA4_20T]

someone do it!

[dougyfresh]

What crank are they using for a 3.0 stroker? Does the 3.0L from the B6 fit in the native 2.7 block?

[02silverb6]

You will definitely need to build the bottom end. Steve (3.0 King) and I have talked about using the 2.7tt manifolds before. Although not really proven yet, the internals would not be able to withstand that kind of power. I would think that we would need to lower the compression on the 3.0 motor, forged internals, port and polish, etc... Im sure someone who is more familiar with forced induction on this motor will chime in. I have also considered just throwing a 2.7tt once my 3.0 motor goes but all the wiring is just way to complex for the average DIY'er. Hopefully Steve will chime in and shed more light on this topic.

[AudiA4_20T]

You will definitely need to build the bottom end. Steve (3.0 King) and I have talked about using the 2.7tt manifolds before. Although not really proven yet, the internals would not be able to withstand that kind of power. I would think that we would need to lower the compression on the 3.0 motor, forged internals, port and polish, etc... Im sure someone who is more familiar with forced induction on this motor will chime in. I have also considered just throwing a 2.7tt once my 3.0 motor goes but all the wiring is just way to complex for the average DIY'er. Hopefully Steve will chime in and shed more light on this topic.

to be honest, Im sure pistons and rods would be all you need. Obviously along with any build comes the need for bearings and such but the work isnt much more than a 1.8T, just 2 more cylinders. Obviously the manifolds are a bit more but the power numbers could be insane.

Im building a single turbo 2.7T in my garage right now, if that goes well Ill keep my fingers crossed that someone asks me about a 3.0

[317ssayzarc]

to be honest, Im sure pistons and rods would be all you need.

eh, idk... the 3.0 are aluminum blocks iirc, which means youll want to do a 2.8

[sandspeed]

The BMW guys have been pushing good numbers (600-1000 rwhp) on aluminum block sixes for years now. An aluminum block is not a prohibitive factor when considering boost. Spacing between the cylinders, compression ratio, and whether the internals will hold out would be the main physical limiting factors, if they even exist. I wish the forced induction community was as big and active here as it is in the BMW scene. Just seems like there is so much incorrect info thrown around here, and very few people are willing to take a chance either.

[AudiA4_20T]

The BMW guys have been pushing good numbers (600-1000 rwhp) on aluminum block sixes for years now. An aluminum block is not a prohibitive factor when considering boost. Spacing between the cylinders, compression ratio, and whether the internals will hold out would be the main physical limiting factors, if they even exist. I wish the forced induction community was as big and active here as it is in the BMW scene. Just seems like there is so much incorrect info thrown around here, and very few people are willing to take a chance either.

I concur, someone needs to do this

[317ssayzarc]

The BMW guys have been pushing good numbers (600-1000 rwhp) on aluminum block sixes for years now. An aluminum block is not a prohibitive factor when considering boost. Spacing between the cylinders, compression ratio, and whether the internals will hold out would be the main physical limiting factors, if they even exist. I wish the forced induction community was as big and active here as it is in the BMW scene. Just seems like there is so much incorrect info thrown around here, and very few people are willing to take a chance either.

point noted... well the 3.0 in untested, and i personally wouldnt throw several thousand into it when it could be done for another 200 in a proven cast iron block. i dont know what bore spacing is on the 3.0, but i know that the 2.8 block is fine, hence why i suggested the switch to that block... id rather get the unknowns out of the way, esp since its so cheap to do so

[dougyfresh]

Unknowns are good to test, and find out, but its all about how much risk are you willing to take? And how deep are your pockets to cover that risk?

[02silverb6]

If my car wasn't in the shop two or three times every month then I would actually have some money to venture to the dark side.

Ever since I have gotten my timing belt replaced I have had oil leak after oil leak. As far as the BMW guys pushing 600-1000 rwhp, are these guys going completely custom or just slapping on a kit that has already been made for their motors?

Custom motor work is definitely not cheap which is why it would be cost effective to go ahead and get everything done at once rather than have the motor pulled two or three times.

I think that is what is stopping people since not everyone has a couple grand lying around to just throw at a motor that is not even guaranteed to be running right after its all said and done.

[317ssayzarc]

trust me, they are building their motors at that level... they may even be sleeving the block at that level but ill let sandspeed confirm or deny that

[Maverick]

[AudiA4_20T]

If my car wasn't in the shop two or three times every month then I would actually have some money to venture to the dark side.

Ever since I have gotten my timing belt replaced I have had oil leak after oil leak. As far as the BMW guys pushing 600-1000 rwhp, are these guys going completely custom or just slapping on a kit that has already been made for their motors?

Custom motor work is definitely not cheap which is why it would be cost effective to go ahead and get everything done at once rather than have the motor pulled two or three times.

I think that is what is stopping people since not everyone has a couple grand lying around to just throw at a motor that is not even guaranteed to be running right after its all said and done.

this would not be a custom really at all... The manifolds are weeks away from being sold to the public... The only things that would have to be custom are the oil and coolant lines, which arent a big deal. Im pretty sure JE or Wiseco could get you some pistons and I'm fairly certain there are drop in rods for you guys.

I think the 3.0 motor could be a monster for just a bit more than the 1.8T. If I could do one I would but I don't have a 3.0 motor! lol

[T0M3K]

As an unemployed college student I can only drool of having that under my hood.

[Maverick]

^^^ clint, how much do you thnk it will cost for you to build the 3.0 motor. This might gets other guys more into this

[sandspeed]

trust me, they are building their motors at that level... they may even be sleeving the block at that level but ill let sandspeed confirm or deny that

Negative. A lot are running stock block 2.8 or 2.5 liter motors, but there are a few high hp 3.0 and 3.2 motors running around too. And the castings for those motors are very similar. There are at least three guys over 600 whp running stock bottom ends, a low-cr headgasket, bigger injectors, and aftermarket or custom intake and exhaust manifolds. One guy even made 996whp on a stock-bottomed 2.8 liter motor for several weeks before a rod went. He was running in the high 700s for a while before they went crazy with the boost and decided to see how long the stock internals would last. The hardcore engine builds I've seen on Bimmers are usually a block that is dipped, cylinders honed or bored for oversized pistons if they are going that way (ie: 2.5 to 2.7 liter conversion for added low-rpm torque, etc.), h-beam rods (everything from Eagle to CP and Arrow has been used. They are all good companies, and more than sufficient for 1000whp on a 6 cylinder), forged pistons in stock config or dished for lower cr (again, many options like Wiseco, Flatlander, CP...), a good MLS head gasket, possibly pyramid or cutting rings (o-ringed head and block), custom intake manifolds (tubular into plenums with velocity trumpets or log-style even. there are a lot of options for them), custom exhaust (again there are options. tubular or log, top mount or bottom mount), and various injector and fuel rail setups, with many different turbo choices. Even twin turbos have been done, although that's very rare. But there are kits out there that can get them 300-500whp, and then you tweak the tune and a few things and crank the boost. It's just disappointing that we are the bastard step-child of the VAG scene. But hey, for years they said the BMW blocks couldn't take boost. Im my experience from research and friend's cars, and from the many mechanics I've spoken to, the Germans tend to over-engineer the engines and transmissions to the point that they can usually handle twice the stock power and torque before breaking. I think if we had a decent manifold and turbo mount setup, along with some good head gaskets, you could probably make 400awhp on these motors. The problem is the tuning and computer stuff. If there was enough demand and we could find a tuner to work out a program for us, the parts wouldn't be hard to get. Custom exhaust manifolds with turbo mounts can be made by a good welder who has a test car to fit them on. And The intake mani could be ported a bit to open up that end. If you got really froggy, you can get a set of forged pistons and h-beam rods for about $1600 made to your specs from a couple places. Eagle or Pauter rods and Wiseco or Flatlander pistons are not too expensive and can make damn near anthing if we have a sample piston or rod. Injectors could be found I'm sure. If I was stateside and had some spare time, I would think about finding a spare motor and a rear-end wrecked A4 to play with. Too bad we don't have a big community that could come together and work on this as a team.

EDIT: OK, some of those guys have moved on to building the motor with rods and pistons. But who can blame them? If I was doing this, and knew that I could spend another $2k to strengthen my internals, I would do it. Really, for the $5k it takes to get a G3 on, we should be able to turbo our motors and make better power.

[sandspeed]

this would not be a custom really at all... The manifolds are weeks away from being sold to the public... The only things that would have to be custom are the oil and coolant lines, which arent a big deal. Im pretty sure JE or Wiseco could get you some pistons and I'm fairly certain there are drop in rods for you guys.

I think the 3.0 motor could be a monster for just a bit more than the 1.8T. If I could do one I would but I don't have a 3.0 motor! lol

There's really no problem getting parts made. I think it's the tuning that stops most people from thinking about this. If someone had a kit with headgasket, manifolds, intake setup, injectors, and a flash/chip for X dollars, I bet they would sell a good amount of them. Even if you had to source your own turbo, I can't imagine it costing more than a few grand for this. In this case though, it will come down to how much tuning will be, and what will be charged for those exhaust manifolds.

[IronAudi]

instead of paying off my CC i would easily drop 8k into my car if this were a more feasible application, thought if i won the lottery id bring it somewhere and tell them to get nuts and 20g later id want 600whp dd

[AudiA4_20T]

^^^ clint, how much do you thnk it will cost for you to build the 3.0 motor. This might gets other guys more into this

Id Imagine for $10k you could have a fully built 600+whp beast with a NASTY torque curve on a 3.0....

If your pretty good at labor or just want to learn, Id say you could save $3-4k...

Im building a single turbo setup on an S4 in my garage and to be honest sans the pistons Im almost doing the same exact build...

Id love to see someone even just build their motor for the time being and see how it holds up.... For a G3 owner whose busted a piston already it would be a good idea

[Ill 3.0]

Id love to see someone even just build their motor for the time being and see how it holds up.... For a G3 owner whose busted a piston already it would be a good idea

might happen sooner rather than later. But it isn't me, I don't have the extra cash for it, plus my G3 runs fine. But as you said, if I break a piston, different story.

[skeeball]

There is at least 2 being built right now.

[IronAudi]

There is at least 2 being built right now.

All smiles right now to see how those come out

[AudiA4_20T]

All smiles right now to see how those come out

yea but they'll be running S/Cs... You need that hairdryer to get the good power

[mtbrider]

too bad I dont have a 3.0

[AudiA4_20T]

too bad I dont have a 3.0

lol I know right?

[k0mpresd]

I know the 2.8 cams are different than the 2.7 cams and work well with a twin GT set-up on a 2.7 or 3.0 (2.7 stroked) set-up.

only the intake camshaft is different. exhaust are shared.

[skeeball]

too bad I dont have a 3.0

Too bad I didn't know Clint two years ago when I was shopping for a s/c.

[IronAudi]

too bad I dont have a 3.0

Ill trade you straight up.

[Ill 3.0]

Ill trade you straight up.

with his built BT, pretty sure he was joking...

[IronAudi]

with his built BT, pretty sure he was joking...

Thats why i said straight up, after hes done with the BT 3.0 hell have twice the HP so it would work out for him

Can no one take a joke.......

[02silverb6]

We need to have more direction though when this kind of thing gets brought up...Alot of these threads all start and end the same way. If someone knows where we can source forged internals then put a link up. If you know where we can get a port and polish..etc post a link up.

[skeeball]

We need to have more direction though when this kind of thing gets brought up...Alot of these threads all start and end the same way. If someone knows where we can source forged internals then put a link up. If you know where we can get a port and polish..etc post a link up.

The rods and pistons can be found but there is no link. This stuff is so small volume no one is going to have them available to buy right off their website. You need to pick up the phone.

[317ssayzarc]

We need to have more direction though when this kind of thing gets brought up...Alot of these threads all start and end the same way. If someone knows where we can source forged internals then put a link up. If you know where we can get a port and polish..etc post a link up.

ill get you custom pistons and ill get you a port and polish if you are serious... almost EVERY company does custom pistons and any real performance shop can do a port and polish

[sandspeed]

ill get you custom pistons and ill get you a port and polish if you are serious... almost EVERY company does custom pistons and any real performance shop can do a port and polish

Yep. The easiest way to do this is have a shop measure all kinds of stuff on the block, head, rods, and pistons, and then send whatever info the piston/rod manufacturer needs. Then they can produce pistons to reduce or increase compression ratio. If you just wanted forged versions of our stock stuff, sending in a rod and a piston would be the easiest way, and they would just basically copy the specs. All it really takes is a phone call or two, just like he said.