BBK vs. new rotors and pads

[somestarsweare]

so right now i'm looking at the option of a bbk (looked at the ECS porche options) or some slotted and drilled rotors and new pads. which should i go with and why? obviously the bbk is the better choice performance wise but price difference could matter. i have 18" rs4 reps with 5 mm spacers in front and 15mm in back. what have you guys done and why? thanks

-Jesse

[S4-ORCE]

If you want bling get the BBK, otherwise nice rotors/pads on stock brakes are just fine.

[audiwop]

If you do any road course track days BBK make a HUGE difference. But if your just staying on the street, then their is no real need for anything more than the stock setup.

[revhards4]

if you do 99% street driving a bbk is a waste...get the stoptech stage 2 upgrade and you'll be just fine

[somestarsweare]

thanks folks. in looking at the stoptech stg 2 kit, they do not come with drilled and slotted rotors, just drilled or slotted. what are the benefits to each?

[ThirdStrike]

stainless lines help a lot too

[somestarsweare]

thanks i think the stoptech kit comes with them. i am a little disappointed to find out that the rotors are 1 piece. should i wait for the ECS 2 piece kit is available in august?

[OPM]

Doesn’t anybody search anymore???

Summary:

1. Street - use OEM. Change pads to achieve any desired result.
2. Track - use 332 StopTech front, ss lines all 4 corners, race fluid and race pads.
3. During 50s racers drilled solid rotors to decrease mass and help with deglazing and outgassing. People loved the look and although technology moved on and racers do no use them (too many reasons why) they are still used for show.
4. On a street car, slotted and two piece floating rotors as well as ss lines won’t do anything more than OEM counterparts already do.

[j_korteS4]

4. On a street car, slotted and two piece floating rotors as well as ss lines won’t do anything more than OEM counterparts already do.

Actually floating rotors and SS lines will make a differance, especially with any spirited driving.

A floating two piece rotor saves a lot of rotational weight, which you don't need to be on the track in order to feel.

SS lines are noticeable on any good back road were heavy, continuous braking is required.

Mix those two with a good set of pads, and even your grandma should be able to feel a good differance.

[OPM]

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. So please do not repeat incorrect info you heard elsewhere. It does not do anybody any good.

SS lines help in 2 areas. 1) they do not expend under pressure as much as rubber lines, and 2) they provide better protection against road debris. American cars of 80s and 90s and even today had/have very soft rubber brake lines and could benefit from ss lines. But this is B5 S4 forum. S4 OEM brake lines do not expend much under pressure. Thus, there is only nominal difference, which almost completely disappears after the hydraulic force moves through ABS controller and modules. On S4, the “firmer paddle” is just a marketing ploy. BTW, spirited driving “heat” has no real effect on additional expansion of OEM lines. Brake fluid is far more important. Not only there are superior fluids, but even if you use OEM fluid, it must be changed frequently. About once a year. If you changed to ss lines and felt great improvement – 99% of that is fresh fluid. Why track S4s should use ss lines? Mostly debris. During a race, but even during HPDE, there is a lot of it on the race surface – primarily marbles. At very high speeds there is a small chance it could damage OEM line. You simple do not want to be in situation where at the end of 130mph straight you have to make a 90 degree turn with no brakes. Furthermore, on a race car with no ABS or race build ABS, ss line allow for better brake modulation. Bottom line – do not waste money on ss lines for a street S4.

The primary goal of a properly designed floating rotor is to allow metal expansion and contraction under heating/cooling cycle. The weight reduction is a great byproduct of the design. One might safe ~ 10lb per side on the front. However, all of that saving is almost at the center of the rotation and therefore the weight reduction acts similar to reduction of 20lb anywhere else in the car, e.g. ~ 2.5g of fuel. Can your grandmother feel 2.5g less in the tank??? Mine cannot. BTW I am talking about the same size rotors. All BBK have larger diameter rotors, which means you save weight at the axle, but increase it farther out from the center of rotation. If the increase in rotor diameter large enough, you or your grandmother my “feel” added weight rather than any redaction. Bottom line – do not waste money on floating rotors for a street S4.

[exorcet]

while everything you have outlined is extremely sound, logically, I still have to ask -- are you Eric Fletcher?

[Maverick]

stoptech stage 2 is very good. same as rotors, pads, SS lines and fluids

I run stoptech stage "2" in my car with b5s4 calipers

[j_korteS4]

Wasn't trying to start an argument. Everything you stated is true.

Let me put it this way...I felt a differance after doing what minimal brake upgrades are listed in my sig. (And maybe it's the Motul Brake Fluid more than anything else, I couldn't really say since I did it all at once)

Thanks OPM for your information.

[tgiblin]

what are you guys running for pads? how much did you spend and where?

[OPM]

Re: exorcet
No, I am not.


Re: j_korteS4
Sorry – I did not mean to be rude. I was irritated this morning and it came through in may post. Sorry.


Re: tgiblin
Be specific – street or track. What’s the goal – low dust, better bite, higher temp, gentler on rotors, etc., etc.?

[tgiblin]

Only street, long lasting, lower dust, just want a firm grab.

[FrimmelNoJerz]

this thread should be renamed "stopping when you want vs. stopping a little bit after you want"

a big break kit is going to provide better stopping power with less fade over extreme use. if you dont track your car and just want to look THUPER thick than get it. otherwise its not worth it.

[Bee Five]

Such good reading to be had on this forum

[Maverick]

OP there is brand new set of Hawk HPS pads for sale right now. go grab them

[FlaS4]

I just decided to go big and got the Brembo BBK with drilled rotors. Great but alot of $$$.

[audiwop]

I've done many track days with my S and I can all of you that the stock brakes suck something real bad on a track. After 2 laps I would get brake fade so bad is almost wasn't worth doing to many more laps after that. Like most have said above, a decent stage 2 brake upgrade will be more than enough for street driving. The only thing I would say is if you look at your car as a long term project like I do mine, then ask yourself what your long term vision for the car will be. Nothing is worse than spending money for a set of new rotors and pads only to feel minimal results. I would argue that my BBK, SS lines, and better fluid makes for a much better feel on the street over the stock brakes. The pedal is much firmer and overall stopping takes much less effort. Just remember, once the BBK is paid for I can promise you that you would never look back and say why didn't I go the other route. I can't say the same if you only decide to get pads and rotors.

[jerodmetcalf]

I'm surprised to see so many people dissatisfied with the stock brakes. I have PBR Ultimate Ceramic pads (approx. $200 for all 4 wheels) and otherwise stock brakes. I have tracked my car a few times and always been happy with them. No fade and I can outbrake nearly every other car. They do get hot enough to boil the paint on the calipers but always worked. The pads squealed horribly for the first 3000 miles or so but now they never make a noise.

[OPM]

I am NOT saying that OEM is a good track setup, but to say it sucks is unfair. The horrendous fade you described is more symptomatic of poor braking technique combined with inappropriate pads and fluid, rather than the fault of OEM system.

Brake pads act like a sponge, but instead of water they absorb heat. If rotors are hotter than pads, pads soak up the heat. If rotors are colder, pads transfer heat to rotors. Kind of like dry waterwheel vs, wet one and regular sponge. Now, just like a sponge each pad has X capacity of absorption. After you reach that limit and the rotor is still hotter than the pad, the pad begins to melt and fluid begins to boil. The fade is seconds away. Different pads have different melting characteristics, but the main point is that their internal molecular structure is changed. The only way to regain full capacity of the system is to replace pads and fluid.

Having said that – I totally agree that if your near future involves heavy track time and you are in need of new rotors and pads – you might as well buy BBK now. However, if serious track time is years away, you might still be better of keeping stock. By the time you ready for track you’ll likely need new rotors and depending on your local climate, caliper rebuild.

[00S4Boy]

I am NOT saying that OEM is a good track setup, but to say it sucks is unfair. The horrendous fade you described is more symptomatic of poor braking technique combined with inappropriate pads and fluid, rather than the fault of OEM system.

Brake pads act like a sponge, but instead of water they absorb heat. If rotors are hotter than pads, pads soak up the heat. If rotors are colder, pads transfer heat to rotors. Kind of like dry waterwheel vs, wet one and regular sponge. Now, just like a sponge each pad has X capacity of absorption. After you reach that limit and the rotor is still hotter than the pad, the pad begins to melt and fluid begins to boil. The fade is seconds away. Different pads have different melting characteristics, but the main point is that their internal molecular structure is changed. The only way to regain full capacity of the system is to replace pads and fluid.

Having said that – I totally agree that if your near future involves heavy track time and you are in need of new rotors and pads – you might as well buy BBK now. However, if serious track time is years away, you might still be better of keeping stock. By the time you ready for track you’ll likely need new rotors and depending on your local climate, caliper rebuild.

Hey you know of any good shops in the boston area to do a t belt?

[OPM]

Hey you know of any good shops in the boston area to do a t belt?

Sure, there lots of good shops around, but IMHO www.eastcoasteuropean.com is the best. Feel free to tell Mark that Steve sent you. Call them in advance. They get really busy so they might not be able to take you on a short notice. They’ll take your parts, but I highly recommend OEM belt. Most, if not all, kits include aftermarket belt, which is not as good/reliable as OEM. Double check with Mark to make sure my info is not outdated.

[jibberjive]

Yeah, hawk blue race pads on stock rotors isn't near as bad as everyone is saying IMO

[washyourrhands]

I've done many track days with my S and I can all of you that the stock brakes suck something real bad on a track. After 2 laps I would get brake fade so bad is almost wasn't worth doing to many more laps after that. Like most have said above, a decent stage 2 brake upgrade will be more than enough for street driving. The only thing I would say is if you look at your car as a long term project like I do mine, then ask yourself what your long term vision for the car will be. Nothing is worse than spending money for a set of new rotors and pads only to feel minimal results. I would argue that my BBK, SS lines, and better fluid makes for a much better feel on the street over the stock brakes. The pedal is much firmer and overall stopping takes much less effort. Just remember, once the BBK is paid for I can promise you that you would never look back and say why didn't I go the other route. I can't say the same if you only decide to get pads and rotors.

i agree completly

[somestarsweare]

i made a decision and ordered the dba 5000 series for the front and 4000 for the rear from tantrumwerks.com which had some pretty neat stuff not to mention the rotors were for less than tirerack.com also got SS brake lines race fluid and Hawk HPS pads. getting them installed next week

[sweetsound2001]

Mind you that if you drop 10+ lbs. per corner in the front, that's a dramatic difference in unsprung weight, which will considerably affect handling and ride quality of the car. This you will feel!

[alexverve]

Yeah, hawk blue race pads on stock rotors isn't near as bad as everyone is saying IMO

agreed. tracked the car few times with those, never had an issue. Stage 2+.

[Raacerx]

Holy old thread batman.....

[BITRBO]

yeah... there has been a slew of old thread bumps lately. I remember following this one though - it was pretty good!

[Skyler@Achtuning]

Yeah the search function seems to be listing the oldest threads at the top of the results page, that's probably why all these old post bumps are going on. I tried changing the search preferences but it does not seem to save that preference correctly...

[csre9]

hey, at least he attempted a search

[x610326]

go with the Ksport BBK. they are cheap and work very good.

[Aggv]

2 piece rotors and good pads are more than enough for spirited street driving. I highly recommended the rotor upgrade