Perhaps IPT John will provide his thoughts too?

**Skydive@AI** · 06-16-2008 10:58 AM

As many of you know, my car was the second B5 S4 "full treatment" setups Level10 had done, four years ago, for use with my OTS APR Stage III kit. A few thousand miles after fitting Stage III, my car again went under the knife, and recently emerged with TiAL R650 Ball Bearing turbos. The Level10 transmission went belly up a couple of hundred miles later.

After weighing options I decided to go with 517 Transmission this time, as Sam had been at Level10 but left with another expatriot to build his own operation, with an eye on honesty. He informed me of several of Level10's scams, and detailed all sorts of short cuts they take...

He is now done with my "re-rebuilt" transmission, which is on its way back to California now, where it will be reinstalled in my car, and I we will have an opportunity to see what works....

Here's an update. I am mindful of the fact that IPT is a major sponsor here at Audizine, so I will say that I have had no experience with them other than a couple of telephone conversations with John. John seems like a very nice guy, but he was unwilling to allow a third party observer to watch as my transmission was worked on. 517 was glad to have us. All three of these shops, (Level10, IPT, and 517 Transmission), are local to oneanother, and everyone seems to know everyone else. I did ask Sam for his thoughts about IPT's advertising, and he provided his thoughts.

Here's what I know, which isn't all that much, but I am trying to educate myself. Sam has been quite forthcoming, and seems to be making an effort to be honest and forthright, which is a far cry from the others.

Above, you can see the "spent" friction materials, clutches and reaction plates. According to Sam, the materials were all OE, and none of them appeared to have been replaced at any time. (Level10 be damned.) One can see that the clutch material is completely fried, and the plates are burned, (and apparently significantly warped though these pictures don't illustrate that very well).

It's difficult to see, because the existing materials are used, burnt, and impregnated with fluid, but, according to Sam, the new material is of a much different quality, and should be much more durable and resilient. (These photos are worth a thousand words to him, but since I know very little about automatic transmission internals, it's difficult for me to do anything other than share what he's provided.)

There is also an example of one of the original and replacement seals. The replacement features a positive fastener, while the original is merely a compression type of seal.

You can also see the valve body "shims" which were placed behind the accumulator actuator spring by Level10. These are nothing more than hardware store washers. 517 has replaced the spring with a higher tension unit instead. Apparently, some other calibrations have been changed as well.

The torque converter showed evidence of a trimmed stator and "bent fins". The stator has been replaced, and the fins properly adjusted for slightly higher stall speed.

The pump seal has been replaced with a custom CNC machined piece, and all dowel pins will be replaced when the transmission is reinstalled.

I did copy some text from IPT's website, and asked Sam to comment upon their package as follows:

---
From IPT:

* Valve body is custom calibrated to provide the ultimate in clutch application power and clamping force. Clutch apply time is greatly reduced and inadequate, sluggish line pressure rise is totally eliminated (The valve body modifications performed by us are of a proprietary design and are unavailable elsewhere).
* Hi Energy friction plates and IPT laser cut, surface treated 1008 steel plates are installed in all shifting clutches.
* *NEW FEATURE* We have now developed the industry's only 7 friction disk "C" clutch pack, 6 friction disk "E" clutch pack and 6 friction disk "F" clutch pack for a tremendous increase in second, third, fourth and fifth gear holding capacity.
* New one way clutches (sprags) are installed in all locations
* Planetary splines are heat treated to prevent stripping.
* Cryogenic treatment is applied to input shaft and planetaries to eliminate stress related failure
* Sun shell is heat treated to prevent stripping
* Lube system is redesigned to provide increased flow and cooler operation
* Lock up system is revised to improve converter clutch application, clamping force and torque holding capacity.
* IPT's proprietary package of modifications represents the most robust and capable Audi automatic gearbox configuration available anywhere.

Sam's comments:

It's a line and a song saying what the original units are. Shafts and sunshells are already heat treated. If for example the planetary gears or any tooth of any spinning gear is strenthened, it will strip its counterpart that's not heat treated. In other words, if you strengthen one thing with out the other you only engineer an extremely weak result. The whole internal gear train must be temperature treated at extraordinary cost. You simply can not say, "Well lets upgrade the strength on this part but not this one." The stronger eats the weaker gear.

As far as the adding of clutch packs goes, you are making the other clutches and steels thinner (and weaker) to add one clutch and one steel. This is a bad idea. Adding friction in a drum is retarded. Adding coefficiency is (clutch plate material) is the way to go, keeping the clutch count the same.

The valve body thing is true except ours is as good, if not better. You do enough but not too much This is NOT a '69 Camaro.

It sounds like someone likes to toot their own horn. The truth is told at 517, with no song and dance, if you may.
---

In any case, we shall see. My transmission is on the return leg, and will be back in Los Angeles next week. I am inclined to trust Sam's word as he could have promised the moon and extracted more from the wallet, but he chose to advise against things and have me keep my money where appropriate.

If any of you have experience with automatic transmission components and can see anything in these photos beyond that which I have been told, please share.

If you'd like to find 517, please contact them directly, in Ogdensburg, New Jersey.

-Michael.

**IPT Trans** · 06-30-2008 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Skydive@AI

As many of you know, my car was the second B5 S4 "full treatment" setups Level10 had done, four years ago, for use with my OTS APR Stage III kit. A few thousand miles after fitting Stage III, my car again went under the knife, and recently emerged with TiAL R650 Ball Bearing turbos. The Level10 transmission went belly up a couple of hundred miles later.

After weighing options I decided to go with 517 Transmission this time, as Sam had been at Level10 but left with another expatriot to build his own operation, with an eye on honesty. He informed me of several of Level10's scams, and detailed all sorts of short cuts they take...

He is now done with my "re-rebuilt" transmission, which is on its way back to California now, where it will be reinstalled in my car, and I we will have an opportunity to see what works....

Here's an update. I am mindful of the fact that IPT is a major sponsor here at Audizine, so I will say that I have had no experience with them other than a couple of telephone conversations with John. John seems like a very nice guy, but he was unwilling to allow a third party observer to watch as my transmission was worked on. 517 was glad to have us. All three of these shops, (Level10, IPT, and 517 Transmission), are local to oneanother, and everyone seems to know everyone else. I did ask Sam for his thoughts about IPT's advertising, and he provided his thoughts.

Here's what I know, which isn't all that much, but I am trying to educate myself. Sam has been quite forthcoming, and seems to be making an effort to be honest and forthright, which is a far cry from the others.

Above, you can see the "spent" friction materials, clutches and reaction plates. According to Sam, the materials were all OE, and none of them appeared to have been replaced at any time. (Level10 be damned.) One can see that the clutch material is completely fried, and the plates are burned, (and apparently significantly warped though these pictures don't illustrate that very well).

It's difficult to see, because the existing materials are used, burnt, and impregnated with fluid, but, according to Sam, the new material is of a much different quality, and should be much more durable and resilient. (These photos are worth a thousand words to him, but since I know very little about automatic transmission internals, it's difficult for me to do anything other than share what he's provided.)

There is also an example of one of the original and replacement seals. The replacement features a positive fastener, while the original is merely a compression type of seal.

You can also see the valve body "shims" which were placed behind the accumulator actuator spring by Level10. These are nothing more than hardware store washers. 517 has replaced the spring with a higher tension unit instead. Apparently, some other calibrations have been changed as well.

The torque converter showed evidence of a trimmed stator and "bent fins". The stator has been replaced, and the fins properly adjusted for slightly higher stall speed.

The pump seal has been replaced with a custom CNC machined piece, and all dowel pins will be replaced when the transmission is reinstalled.

I did copy some text from IPT's website, and asked Sam to comment upon their package as follows:

---
From IPT:

* Valve body is custom calibrated to provide the ultimate in clutch application power and clamping force. Clutch apply time is greatly reduced and inadequate, sluggish line pressure rise is totally eliminated (The valve body modifications performed by us are of a proprietary design and are unavailable elsewhere).
* Hi Energy friction plates and IPT laser cut, surface treated 1008 steel plates are installed in all shifting clutches.
* *NEW FEATURE* We have now developed the industry's only 7 friction disk "C" clutch pack, 6 friction disk "E" clutch pack and 6 friction disk "F" clutch pack for a tremendous increase in second, third, fourth and fifth gear holding capacity.
* New one way clutches (sprags) are installed in all locations
* Planetary splines are heat treated to prevent stripping.
* Cryogenic treatment is applied to input shaft and planetaries to eliminate stress related failure
* Sun shell is heat treated to prevent stripping
* Lube system is redesigned to provide increased flow and cooler operation
* Lock up system is revised to improve converter clutch application, clamping force and torque holding capacity.
* IPT's proprietary package of modifications represents the most robust and capable Audi automatic gearbox configuration available anywhere.

Sam's comments:

It's a line and a song saying what the original units are. Shafts and sunshells are already heat treated. If for example the planetary gears or any tooth of any spinning gear is strenthened, it will strip its counterpart that's not heat treated. In other words, if you strengthen one thing with out the other you only engineer an extremely weak result. The whole internal gear train must be temperature treated at extraordinary cost. You simply can not say, "Well lets upgrade the strength on this part but not this one." The stronger eats the weaker gear.

As far as the adding of clutch packs goes, you are making the other clutches and steels thinner (and weaker) to add one clutch and one steel. This is a bad idea. Adding friction in a drum is retarded. Adding coefficiency is (clutch plate material) is the way to go, keeping the clutch count the same.

The valve body thing is true except ours is as good, if not better. You do enough but not too much This is NOT a '69 Camaro.

It sounds like someone likes to toot their own horn. The truth is told at 517, with no song and dance, if you may.
---

In any case, we shall see. My transmission is on the return leg, and will be back in Los Angeles next week. I am inclined to trust Sam's word as he could have promised the moon and extracted more from the wallet, but he chose to advise against things and have me keep my money where appropriate.

If any of you have experience with automatic transmission components and can see anything in these photos beyond that which I have been told, please share.

If you'd like to find 517, please contact them directly, in Ogdensburg, New Jersey.

-Michael.

Hi Skydive,

While I usually try to avoid most of the internet / forum nonsense, I will comment here.

As anyone who has read my other posts probably has ascertained, I like to maintain a level of professionalism. One aspect of this is that I don't like to comment on other shops. Apparently, most other shops don't hold themselves to this standard. I don't know Sam at 517 personally but I do know a few people at Level 10 including the owner Pat and the head rebuilder Joe.

That said, I guess that I can understand the motivation of a shop that looks to be doing way less to their transmissions than we are to take the opportunity to negatively comment on what we are doing.

The statement that adding additional friction material to a drum is "retarded" is just asinine. I would suggest that nearly 100% of transmission rebuilders would contend that adding friction material adds torque capacity, period. By the way, we use material which is far better than what the OEM uses in all clutch packs in addition to the the extra clutches.

Also, Sam may be qualified to comment on the work of Level Ten, he has worked there and it looks like he has your transmission there to look at, however, Sam is certainly not qualified to judge our work. I know for a fact that he has never worked for me nor has he ever worked on something that we have rebuilt first.

It is, in my opinion, pretty unfair for a shop that may not have the wherewithall or inclination to do the type of upgrades that are 'real' to comment negatively about a shop that does.

-John

**Skydive@AI** · 06-30-2008 03:12 PM

Hi John,

Interesting. Thanks for the response. My understanding is that you and Sam are in agreement with regard to the addition of material. His point was that adding a clutch and steel in the same space means that the existing material has to be made thinner, and he disgrees with that, as he'd prefer to just add better, thicker material to the existing clutch plates.

Again... I'm no expert, but it's high time that the community becomes educated so that the Level10s of the world can't keep taking money for nothing.

-Michael.

**IPT Trans** · 06-30-2008 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Skydive@AI

Hi John,

Interesting. Thanks for the response. My understanding is that you and Sam are in agreement with regard to the addition of material. His point was that adding a clutch and steel in the same space means that the existing material has to be made thinner, and he disgrees with that, as he'd prefer to just add better, thicker material to the existing clutch plates.

Again... I'm no expert, but it's high time that the community becomes educated so that the Level10s of the world can't keep taking money for nothing.

-Michael.

Well again, no comment on Level 10.

I will try to give a quick education (or at least my view) on the extra clutch question.

As far as the need to create room for extra clutches, there are three ways to go about this (and they can be combined).

1) Machining of the clutch piston or snap ring groove. This method has none of the perceived negative effect in regards to making anything thinner. We employ this method which can be time consuming.

2) Making steel plates thinner. This works well for us but... thinner steels can sometimes warp from excessive heat. Two things need to be done in conjunction with making steel plates that are thinner.
-The shift needs to be shortened (less heat generated)
and
-Steel plates are almost always stamped out with dies- this contributes to the propensity for them to warp when they get hot.
We have our thinner steels laser cut to avoid this. This is expensive to have done but well worth it (to us anyway).

3) Making the friction clutches themselves thinner. This is good but is extremely impractical for a transmission shop to have made.

-John

**hacellular** · 07-16-2008 06:33 PM

IPT TRANS. I have an audi a4 b6 3.0 QT. 6 sp. ok this is the deal I was driving my car to pick up something from a friend. I drove around 120 miles round trip. right when i got down the street from my house i pulled over to get gas, and down shifted from 5th to 4th and from 4th to 3rd and from 3nd to 2nd. everything seemed to be ok, untill i pulled out of the gas station. my car started to vibrate like crazy when i give it gas. I was like wtf. then I started to think what could it be, coil? bad gas? plugs? well i check all that and it seems like its something else. there is NO cell and the car pulls ok, does not seem like it lost a lot of power, but the vibration is a lot, I asked a friend and he told me it might be your Dual Mass Fly wheel. Is that possible? if so how much would it cost to fix? please any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks again. Or is it a bering somewhere in the tranny or that holds the flywheel?

Harry

**Mr. Merk** · 10-21-2010 06:15 AM

off topic, gtfo

**AudiA4Turbo22** · 10-24-2010 11:12 AM

^^Agreed.

I talked to nearly every company out there before I had my trans built. Level 10 with its reputation was out of the question right from the get go. I spoke to John at IPT Trans and John really knows what he's talking about transmission wise and was a nice honest guy. I actually had chosen to go with IPT, because they are the only ones that I know of that offer a higher stall speed than stock by a large amount(~3800RPM?). The only thing I was warned about was the fact that by raising the stall speed, the stator has to be machined down making it weaker and hence providing for a chance of failure. Now in reality I know a few people with Torque converters from IPT and their cars have never had a problem.

I chose to go with 517 Trans for the simple reason that I knew only one B6 A4 that had a trans from 517 Trans and so I said I'd give it a shot. Sam is a very nice, honest guy and he had no intention in cheating me out of my money or by selling me extra services. He told me you don't need this, you need this, etc. I was very happy with his service and the results. My car has been awesome for the 8 months I've had the tranny in the car and it was well worth it.

IMHO, the two leaders in this segment are IPT and 517 Trans. Both are far superior to the average shops like: Level 10 and Redline Performance and the overpriced 2Bennett kits. It just depends on what you want and who is closer to you, etc.

If you go with either company you will be happy and there is no two ways about it.