Upgrading brakes for track: Please help

[Louis J.]

My first track day on the A4 is coming up and I'm starting to think about brakes. The track is technical with lots of braking required and while I don't want to spend $2k on a BBK, I also don't want to nanny them for fear of toasting them.

Can I get away with an aggressive fluid like Castrol SRF, steel lines and pads (Hawk HPS maybe?) or do I need to look at upgrading the calipers and rotors too? If so, should I just do the fronts or do I need to do the rears too? Can something like Porsche 993 or 996 calipers work? I think they're 4 piston too. I was also thinking of looking into Touareg calipers since a tech mentioned he's done an upgrade using massive Cayanne calipers (sounds expensive though).

Also, any ideas on increasing airflow to the brakes? I think this is a key issue since there seems to be no flow. I was thinking of cutting out a hole on the wheel liner and ducting to scoop and direct air from the fog grilles to the brakes. Anyone tried anything like this?

TIA

[Quattro]

hmmm, well if your not going to heavily track your car it might not be worth to invest in a new brake upgrade.
My advice:
I would recommend just upgrading brake pads with something ceramic to dissipate the heat better. The pads would give you a better bite and not wear as quick. Replacing the rotors to cross drilled/slotted is a start to also help ventilate the dust and not heat up as much. Overall this would be the cheaper route, but might not give you the full stopping power you might want.

if you do a bbk you will end up spending on a Porsche upgrade around 1k, if you are going to track religiously then I say bbk is the way to go, else better pads are the cheaper alternative way.
Lastly, doing the oem b7 s4 upgrade might help as well, giving you a larger rotor (not sure how this helps, but i am sure someone will chime in).

hope this helps and not making it worse!

ps: soooo jealous you have abt exhaust

[Spidee]

My experience with stock brakes were pretty good. I did a track day in them at Laguna Seca. However, by the end of the 3rd session they began to cook. Mind you, I knew the track well, I'm a seasoned track driver, and at my higher speeds the stock brakes were only going to hold up so long.

I'd recommend getting better pads. I couldn't recommend a brand because I didn't upgrade the stock pads but look into Ferodo, Axis, Porterfield, or Hawk HPS. I had Hawk HPS pads on the ECS Stage IV BBK kit. They did well on track but weren't the best. The nice thing about Hawk HPS is, they handled track use but they're more of a street pad. You should definitely upgrade to Stainless Steel lines. One of the best brake fluids available for the Audi is made by Motul, use that. I'd use stock rotors until you feel like the stock braking system is holding you back from more speed. With the upgrade of the parts mentioned, you'll do fine for awhile. If you do see yourself hitting up the track and you're getting faster, then it's time to upgrade the rotors. I wouldn't go BBK unless the car is a dedicated track car or you're really going to attend track days quite often. In most cases where your car is a daily driver, larger 2 piece vented rotors front and back will improve your braking enormously. I think Stoptech sells a decent rotor upgrade kit front and back with brake fluid and ss lines. Contact Darren at Streetwerkes, he mentioned that kit to me.

Hope this helps.

[Louis J.]

Good points. Firstly, yes, I doubt I'll do more than a half dozen events for the year and probably won't keep the car for longer than a year and a half so I don't really want to spend the $$$ on a BBK. The S4 upgrade sounds like a great idea.

Don't know much about it but in principal it makes sense since it's a heavier and faster car requiring heavier duty brakes. Spidee, the rotor idea sounds great too and I do want to go with a pad I can use for street too as I don't want to be switching back and forth. I'll give Streetwerkes a call. Thanks for the input guys, very helpful!!!

Thanks on the Abt setup. I just turned it into a catback and it sounds sweet!!!

[Quattro]

got an pics of the exhaust? I was going to pick it up, but supposedly it looked like the milltek and wasnt really worth the money...mostly the logo

[Louis J.]

Sure: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209543

I got a very good deal but I would never pay retail...runs around $1,300 for axlebacks. That said, quality is excellent and the sound is the best I've heard yet...especially now that I've done a custom conversion to catback.

[Quattro]

sick....!!!!

[Silververtu]

what brand of SS lines do you people get? Is the ECS ones ok?

[supamannn99]

whats the benefits of stainless steel lines? and better brake fluids?

[///Manuel]

What symptoms did you experience?
How long were your sessions?

Brake fluid should be fresh when going to the track, meaning that the brakes should have been bled recently prior to the event. It helps to bleed them after the event as well. Motul or ATE brake fluid should definitely help over old stock fluid. I'm not sure what the stock pads are worth but when I rode HPS's at the track in a BMW, I was a little disappointed and a little scared as well! It's ideal to switch pads for the track and will allow you to get a more aggressive pad and one that likes to be hot (I loved my Hawk Blues).

I'd look into fluid + pad combo first before you go into bbk's. It also helps to remove items from the car when going to the track (spare tire, jack, possibly rear seats and such). That'll be that many fewer pounds for the brakes to handle.

[audimeister]

I have pads (I'd do Hawk HPS for all-around, HPP for if you switch pads for track days), lines, and S4 rotors/carriers. They work great unless I get really abusive- end of day late braking maneuvers, etc.

S4 rotors are 345mm vs. stock 320-ish(?) and wider with more venting. They absorb and dissipate heat far more efficiently.

If you run snows for the winter, the smallest wheel that fits with S4 brakes is 17".

The nice thing is that you can easily return to stock and sell the bits when you're done with them.

[extremesport3]

I have the Stage 4 from ECS, they are great brakes but the rotors are terrible. I had my first track day recently and the brakes got cooked by the last session however i am a pretty seasoned track guy and I really pushed it. No matter what though if you do not push it i would recommend that you do the stainless lines and a high temp fluid with ceramic pads as mentioned by Quattro!!!

If you are going to do BBK go with the Alcon from stasis or the Rotora's. They are great brakes and i have not heard of any issues with them.

[Louis J.]

Spidee: Spoke to Darren today. Great guy and very knowledgable. Thanks for the reference.

Super: Rubber lines for street applications have "give" under pressure and will eventually fail while steel lines don't really wear (I don't think so anyway) and will help make braking more crisp and responsive when pushed at the track.

Manuel: Thanks for the feedback. Still debating whether to find a compromise pad or to switch back and forth. See comments below.

Audimister: Great idea and considering going with the S4 upgrade. I don't think I need anything beyond that frankly.

I should point out that I doubt I'll see more than three events this year...maybe five at most. That said, here's where I'm at right now...

Carbotech pads - probably X6 or X8
Castrol SRF fluid - Came highly recommended by my Porsche track buds and was going to put it on my 993 for track. Has been used by Audi rally teams.
Nuspeed SS lines
Ducting the brakes to keep them cool

I may also do the S4 upgrade to bigger rotors and carriers but haven't decided yet. If I do it, I'll go with something crossdrilled and slotted. Any suggestions on S4 rotors would be appreciated.

Whadaya guys think???

[grauler02]

I am a firm believer in upgrading the brakes whether its for Street or Track use. SS lines are a definite must, but even if you upgrade to a porsche setup or ECS bbk you will still love them on the street! So either way you won't go wrong. If you have the funds for it, I say upgrade!

[Louis J.]

Okay, I think I'm done (unless anyone has anything else to contribute!?).

Carbotech pads - X10F and X8R
Castrol SRF fluid
Nuspeed SS lines
Ducting, possibly with some spanky dust covers that have venting built-in.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[IceMole]

Does anyone know the S4 carrier part number? I found the s4 rotors on genunineaudiparts for $67.48 each.

[a4darkness]

Here's all the part numbers I have for the S4 brake upgrade...

8E0 615 125 C: 07 Carrier [x2]
8E0 615 123 C: Caliper [Left]
8E0 615 124 C: Caliper [Right]

8E0 615 269: spring [x2]
4D0 698 647: Pin [x2]

To my knowledge, these are correct... but I've yet to confirm / purchase them all.

Does anyone know the S4 carrier part number? I found the s4 rotors on genunineaudiparts for $67.48 each.

[IceMole]

Caliper is the same on S4 as A4. All you need is 2x S4 rotor + 2x S4 carrier. Thanks for the part number

[a4darkness]

Most certainly. Oh, and I have a B6 so I need the whole assembly.

[lnferno]

For Brake Fluid, I like ATE Super Blue. What I like about this stuff is that they make the same fluid in Amber, so I will be able to see when the new fluid is in the calipers. On the next brake bleed session, I can switch to back to blue from amber. Alternating between the two different colors makes it a lot easier seeing when the new fluid is in the calipers.

[intonation]

Last weekend I installed the ECS lines + Pentosin racing fluid, along with the Stasis two-piece Alcon 355mm rotors and PBR ceramic pads. Long story short, it grips like bloody hell and I see no reason to upgrade the calipers over stock with this setup. Only catch is, we had to use a grinder to grind down the surface metal on the outside of the calipers to fit them under the stock split spokes (calipers repositioned with Stasis brackets in this kit). I'm going to post a thread with the complete pics from the job in the next couple days. It is pretty extreme fitment - only room for a few sheets of paper between the calipers and the wheels, but they aren't rubbing so I think it's all good.

I would highly recommend this setup for street and occasional track. The rotors are conservatively slotted, so you wont' have cracking issues. Look for the A4 Touring Brake package on the Stasis site. About 1k, then the pads, lines, and fluid cost ~250 more.

[Louis J.]

Dante: I hear ya. I've been using ATE for some time. Great product and I like the ability to switch from blue to amber...makes the job a lot easier and accurate. This is what I would've gone with except that another AZer local to me who runs a B6 1.8 on the track told me that he boiled ATE at the track. Castrol comes highly recommended by various track buddies and it has the highest boiling point of any brake fluid on the market (IIRC) so I'm going to give that a try. It's expensive stuff but makes for cheap insurance.

intonation: Agreed. From the research I've done, there's no reason to put a BBK for light track. Our calipers are designed to stop the 340HP S4 which carries an extra 320lbs in the front so I figure they'll work well on my lighter, less powerful A4. My biggest concern is keeping the temps down as these cars are not designed for track duty and I don't think the brakes have appropriate ventilation. So, to address this issue, I'm going with SS lines, brake fluid with the highest boiling point in the market, ceramic pads and custom ducting to direct airflow directly into the rotors. I may pick up a set of lightweight, floating, slotted ECS rotors that someone near me is selling too.

[QUIKnEZ]

I was in the same predicament as you a few months ago... I decided to go STOPTECH 4 Piston on all wheels with no E-brake (I run tiptronic). Brembo's cost an arm and a leg more for the same performance.... and all the BBK's that's I've seen considered come with NO E-brake so be weary.

Brakes and rims are being put on this week... I'll post pics as soon as I have them installed.

Cost: $2500 CDN.

[Louis J.]

I was in the same predicament as you a few months ago... I decided to go STOPTECH 4 Piston on all wheels with no E-brake (I run tiptronic). Brembo's cost an arm and a leg more for the same performance.... and all the BBK's that's I've seen considered come with NO E-brake so be weary.

Brakes and rims are being put on this week... I'll post pics as soon as I have them installed.

Cost: $2500 CDN.

I hear ya but I'm trying to avoid spending that kind of money as I don't plan to keep the car very long. SS lines, fluid and pads should keep me under $500 and provide a decent setup for light tracking.

[Louis J.]

Here is a great thread on brake upgrades for porker Audis at the track:

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11459

Someone in the thread makes comments about rotor issues related to switching pads back and forth between street and track, especially going from ceramic track pads to metallic street pads. Any comments on that?

[IceMole]

I hear ya but I'm trying to avoid spending that kind of money as I don't plan to keep the car very long. SS lines, fluid and pads should keep me under $500 and provide a decent setup for light tracking.

and if you still need more it's just a $379 upgrade to s4

[joec500]

just to add to options, you can get a set of Plus Size Alcon rotors and Caliper Carrier for around 900ish I think, you may want to ping STaSIS

[VZWalex]

I did a simple upgrade to the Nuspeed SS brake lines and Motul brake fluid. Made a very noticeable difference on my stock stoppers. At our last Malibu Canyon run the brakes felt better turn after turn and felt no loss in stopping power. Just my $0.02.

[Erocko]

Has anyone run EBC pads? I've always heard good things and was planning on eventually ordering a set.

[Silververtu]

how much new brake fluid do we need to bleed?

[swoardrider]

how much new brake fluid do we need to bleed?

Just had a complete brake flush done today. Took about 5 1/2 pints.

[Silververtu]

Just had a complete brake flush done today. Took about 5 1/2 pints.

That's quite alot. What brake fluid did you use?

[Awulf]

Here some of what I did. Stasis S4 upgrade all th way around, Good/SS, Motul, Carbotec pads (not for race setup) just under $2000. Brake duct are a kit from Quantum Motorsports $175, for a mustang, just trimmed the spindle mount to fit the factory dust shield and riveted, 9inch Nacas under the intercoolers on either side, and 3.5 inch hose through the wheel wells (not shown I used hose clamps in a offset figure eight, one on the coil-over the other on the hose to hold it up and out of the way for turning) Use caution- cannot use full opposite lock when in reverse thats the only draw back, could use 2.5 inch hose to fix that. Oh while I had the wheel well liner off, I cut out large sections and replaced with mesh for the low pressure behind intercoolers so air would flow through more efficiently (no pics currently) and fluid should be clean looking and no air bubbles, after you run at the track and it cools down, flush again to maintain power, the over heating will create bubbles and reduce efficiency of the system.

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[intonation]

Awulf, you have the same brakes as me. Looking good!!

[Louis J.]

Here some of what I did. Stasis S4 upgrade all th way around, Good/SS, Motul, Carbotec pads (not for race setup) just under $2000. Brake duct are a kit from Quantum Motorsports $175, for a mustang, just trimmed the spindle mount to fit the factory dust shield and riveted, 9inch Nacas under the intercoolers on either side, and 3.5 inch hose through the wheel wells (not shown I used hose clamps in a offset figure eight, one on the coil-over the other on the hose to hold it up and out of the way for turning) Use caution- cannot use full opposite lock when in reverse thats the only draw back, could use 2.5 inch hose to fix that. Oh while I had the wheel well liner off, I cut out large sections and replaced with mesh for the low pressure behind intercoolers so air would flow through more efficiently (no pics currently) and fluid should be clean looking and no air bubbles, after you run at the track and it cools down, flush again to maintain power, the over heating will create bubbles and reduce efficiency of the system.

Awulf, thanks for your post, that's nearly identical to the setup I'm contemplating. I've been doing some research on ducting and was planning on a custom job but I think I rather buy the Mustang kit off the shelf. Thanks for the heads up.

I haven't taken either the front bumper or the wheel liner to have a good look and see if it's possible to duct directly from the behind the intercoolers by cutting the wheel liner and ducting from there to draw air from the fog grilles. Can you comment on this idea? Also, which pads did you go with? I spoke to Danny at Carbotec and he suggested a dedicated set of XP10F and XP8R.

If you have any more pics of your setup, that would be great!!! Nice to see someone thinking along the same lines...

BTW, black titanium...nice.

[RedS-line]

sounds like some good ideas floating around here. i was thinking about hawk pads along with a possible s4 brake upgrade if my brakes get that low and top it off with pentosin. anything is better than the stock feel....

[Louis J.]

Red, I've done a lot of surfing around through various racing forums after getting some initial feedback from a few very qualified shops regarding pads. The general feedback is that Hawks are just okay but Carbotecs are fantastic. Every single post on carbotec came back with excellent comments. I can't speak from personal experience but that's what I'm going with for both street and track moving forward. If you're not tracking the car, I'd stick with the A4 rotors until you have to change them. Pads and fluid will make a world of difference on the street.

[RedS-line]

louis, ive only heard good things about hawk but ill look into carbotec. the nice thing about hawk is that i can walk into my local auto store and pick them up. ive never heard of carbotec.

[Louis J.]

louis, ive only heard good things about hawk but ill look into carbotec. the nice thing about hawk is that i can walk into my local auto store and pick them up. ive never heard of carbotec.

All the more reason to look into them. You can order direct from them and have them shipped. Talk to Danny...he was knowledgeable and helpful in picking the right combo pad based on the car and intended use. http://ctbrakes.com/

[Audized]

I'm not sure if there is any underbody structural difference between B6 and B7, but it might be worth giving Jet Jockey a shout. He did the ducting on his MTM B6, which will be a track car sooner or later.